Reci cert - how long?

zipee

So I called my builder out on some electrical work and he got his electrician out to recheck the work for me.

Basically the builder put in the first fixings of the electrics and the electrician came out and hooked everything up.

When the builders finished a cert wasn’t mentioned. So I told him I needed a cert before I’ve paid the final balance.

He sent the electrician out to re-check and in fact change some of the work today. I do feel the electrician was very thorough. When I asked the electrician about the cert he said that is no problem but you will have to leave it with me for a few weeks as they take time. I still don’t want to pay the builder until I have the cert.

Can I just ask does it take a few weeks to get a recci cert?

Thanks

2011

zipee wrote: »

Basically the builder put in the first fixings of the electrics and the electrician came out and hooked everything up.

I assume that you know that it is not permitted for a builder to wire a domestic installation unless the builder is also a qualified electrician and a registered electrical contractor?

When the builders finished a cert wasn’t mentioned.

I would think that this was because it is not permitted to certify this work as it was illegal.

So I told him I needed a cert before I’ve paid the final balance.

Any cert issue now would essentially be a fake as the wiring was not by a REC.

Can I just ask does it take a few weeks to get a recci cert?

Not really.

zipee

Thanks.

I had hoped it was ok for builder to do first fixings?

Not going to pay any more money TIL it’s sorted.

Builder had an accredited quantity surveyor for pricing job... really thought all was ok... hmmmm

Risteard81

As @2011 has pointed out this was completely illegal. Restricted Electrical Works cannot be carried out by anyone other than a Registered Electrical Contractor. RECI should have been contacted about this, and presumably either a rewire or a Change of Contractor procedure would have been required.

A non-REC cannot 1st fix - Restricted Electrical Works does not merely apply to 2nd fix and certification.

Risteard81

zipee wrote: »

I had hoped it was ok for builder to do first fixings?

Absolutely not. It is a criminal offence punishable by a fine of up to €15,000 and/or up to three years' imprisonment if the builder was not a REC.

You should also note that the REC cannot now certify the installation (nor should he/she have done any work on it) without a Change of Contractor procedure being followed or the property completely rewired.

frankythefish

What exact steps should op take to sort all of this? He is in difficult position

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

What exact steps should op take to sort all of this? He is in difficult position

He should contact RECI.

frankythefish

And builder gets jailed or fined heavily and business closes? Could be a small town where everyone knows everyone. Would put op in horrible position.

Risteard81 wrote: »

He should contact RECI.

zipee

Ok I am taking all on board and planning to sort this.

Can I ask one more thing.

Radiator pipes in the Bathroom which is where the wiring was done were not earthed. They are qualpecks (no clue how to spell that 😱) pipes under the floor and copper up to the radiator.

The electrician today brought me into the hot press to show me that the copper pipes in the hot press were earthed and said therefore all the pipes in the house where earthed and did not need to be earthed at the radiator. But he earthed anyway when I asked him to.

So should they be earthed if “qualpecks” with copper too.

I had great relationship with this builder and just want a safe home.

Sleeper12

frankythefish wrote: »

And builder gets jailed or fined heavily and business closes? Could be a small town where everyone knows everyone. Would put op in horrible position.

It will be an even more horrible position if someone gets electrocuted.

Risteard81

zipee wrote: »

Radiator pipes in the Bathroom which is where the wiring was done were not earthed. They are qualpecks (no clue how to spell that ��) pipes under the floor and copper up to the radiator.

These pipes are XLPE (cross-linked polyethelene) and therefore are not and cannot be extraneous-conductive-parts, and therefore should not be bonded. (Bonding is not the same as earthing, which is done to exposed-conductive-parts, which they also are not.)

In fact they are not any type of conductive part as they are non-conductive. The short lengths of copper are simply floating metalwork and cannot introduce any potential into the installation.

Steve

zipee wrote: »

Ok I am taking all on board and planning to sort this.

Can I ask one more thing.

Radiator pipes in the Bathroom which is where the wiring was done were not earthed. They are qualpecks (no clue how to spell that ��) pipes under the floor and copper up to the radiator.

The electrician today brought me into the hot press to show me that the copper pipes in the hot press were earthed and said therefore all the pipes in the house where earthed and did not need to be earthed at the radiator. But he earthed anyway when I asked him to.

So should they be earthed if “qualpecks” with copper too.

I had great relationship with this builder and just want a safe home.

Not sure on that one. I don't do domestic work.

Qualplex is plastic tubing for plumbing use and is non conductive so in theory the rads are perfectly safe without an earth bond.

That said, I am not familiar with the regs regarding that.

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

And builder gets jailed or fined heavily and business closes? Could be a small town where everyone knows everyone. Would put op in horrible position.

So you believe that unlawful and illegal electrical work should be encouraged then?

Steve

Risteard81 wrote: »

So you believe that unlawful and illegal electrical work should be encouraged then?

In fairness, that's a whole other debate (and one that I'd love to have) but it's really not relevant to the OPs dilemma.

frankythefish

I think in theory
RECI route is right, in practice it may simply make op s life very uncomfortable though. Could the op not ask for the work to be redone as opposed to sending his builder to Mountjoy or the like?

Risteard81 wrote: »

So you believe that unlawful and illegal electrical work should be encouraged then?

Risteard81

frankythefish wrote: »

I think in theory
RECI route is right, in practice it may simply make op s life very uncomfortable though. Could the op not ask for the work to be redone as opposed to sending his builder to Mountjoy or the like?

Might be Portlaoise.

zipee

Risteard81 wrote: »

These pipes are XLPE (cross-linked polyethelene) and therefore are not and cannot be extraneous-conductive-parts, and therefore should not be bonded. (Bonding is not the same as earthing, which is done to exposed-conductive-parts, which they also are not.)

In fact they are not any type of conductive part as they are non-conductive. The short lengths of copper are simply floating metalwork and cannot introduce any potential into the installation.

Sorry! I’m thick with this stuff.... so if qualplex with copper top.... no need to earth? By early I mean wire taped to them as such????

Sleeper12

How do you know that it is Qualpex under the floor? Isn't it possible that the pipes are copper & not Qualpex? This is the problem with this type of handyman /builder. Can you trust him when he tells you something. From what the lads are saying here, he might have made matters worse today & the work carried out today by the electrician, reci or not, seems to have been illegal works to if I'm reading the posts correctly. Even if they magically produce a reci cert in a few weeks will it be worth the paper it's written on?

Steve

Sleeper12 wrote: »

How do you know that it is Qualpex under the floor? Isn't it possible that the pipes are copper & not Qualpex? This is the problem with this type of handyman /builder. Can you trust him when he tells you something. From what the lads are saying here, he might have made matters worse today & the work carried out today by the electrician, reci or not, seems to have been illegal works to if I'm reading the posts correctly. Even if they magically produce a reci cert in a few weeks will it be worth the paper it's written on?

Are you saying the REC has to certify the plumbing as well??

kramer1

Reci cert, shouldn't take very long, once the place has been properly tested. Your problem here is that you can't believe a word that any of these people are telling you. Has the installation been powered up already?

zipee

Sleeper12 wrote: »

How do you know that it is Qualpex under the floor? Isn't it possible that the pipes are copper & not Qualpex? This is the problem with this type of handyman /builder. Can you trust him when he tells you something. From what the lads are saying here, he might have made matters worse today & the work carried out today by the electrician, reci or not, seems to have been illegal works to if I'm reading the posts correctly. Even if they magically produce a reci cert in a few weeks will it be worth the paper it's written on?

I saw the qualplex under the floor and they are qualplex to toilets

Sleeper12

Steve wrote: »

Are you saying the REC has to certify the plumbing as well??

No. I'm saying that anything that the builder & the electrician today say can't be trusted. I'm suggesting not believing the builder claiming that the pipes under the floor are Qualpex. Just to be on the safe side I would assume that they are copper. If the pipes under the floor are copper and the pipes going to the bathroom rad are copper then the rad should be bonded, if this is in the wiring regs. The electrician ttoday stating that if the pipes in the hot press are bonded then it means all pipes in the house are earthed was misleading to say the least. He is stating as fact something he can't possibly know for certain.

If it were my home I'd feel better getting in an independent reci to rewire or change of contractor. I wouldn't trust these two to make things right.

antiskeptic

Risteard81 wrote: »

So you believe that unlawful and illegal electrical work should be encouraged then?

Is there a difference between unlawful and illegal?

In the context of another discussion I looked up how many people had been electrocuted in a domestic setting (excluding those few deaths arising from people fixing appliances) in the last, iirc, 20 years.

I think it was 1

Whilst one might not encourage unlawful electrical work, one does have to question the scale of the problem.

RECI are a vested interest, remember.

Sleeper12

antiskeptic wrote: »

Is there a difference between unlawful and illegal?

In the context of another discussion I looked up how many people had been electrocuted in a domestic setting (excluding those few deaths arising from people fixing appliances) in the last, iirc, 20 years.

I think it was 1

Whilst one might not encourage unlawful electrical work, one does have to question the scale of the problem.

RECI are a vested interest, remember.

This seemed way off to me so I googled it & was surprised at how low the figure was.

In Ireland, there have been 64 electrocutions or deaths from the explosive/burning effects of electricity from 1997 to the end of 2017. Of those, 42 deaths have been associated with a work activity. The remaining 22 have occurred in domestic situations or as a result of trespass, vandalism or in one case a fallen overhead power line.

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Dangers_of_Electricity/Electrical_Fatality_Statistics/


I count 14 Deaths in the home inc garage & garden. Three death in an electric shower alone. There is another thread from two weeks ago where a bathroom company left the power shower with a leaking earth. OP & wife were getting shocks from the shower.

2011

antiskeptic wrote: »

In the context of another discussion I looked up how many people had been electrocuted in a domestic setting (excluding those few deaths arising from people fixing appliances) in the last, iirc, 20 years.

I think it was 1

Did you check how many domestic electrical fires there had been?

antiskeptic

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This seemed way off to me so I googled it & was surprised at how low the figure was.

So was I. I trawled through the actual incidents so as to exclude folk working on appliance and the like

(reminds me of my neighbours wife calling across recently, white as a ghost. Her chef husband had attempted to change the broken cooker isolator with the power still on. There was a decent notch burnt out of the screwdriver he'd poked down to the screws)

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Dangers_of_Electricity/Electrical_Fatality_Statistics/


I count 14 Deaths in the home inc garage & garden. Three death in an electric shower alone. There is another thread from two weeks ago where a bathroom company left the power shower with a leaking earth. OP & wife were getting shocks from the shower.

Like I say, I couldn't recall the actual figure but it was low.

So we have a situation where massive expense is laid on the nation for a relatively small problem. The work of a body who has a vested interest - given the money that would flow into their coffers.

You might say that one life is a life too many but as elsewhere, the cost of a life is factored into how far the state is prepared to go in preventing that loss. Think the health service and the medicines it won't pay for, even if life saving.

antiskeptic

2011 wrote: »

Did you check how many domestic electrical fires there had been?

Are you suggesting statutory chimney sweeping? Or statutory chip pan checks?

2011

antiskeptic wrote: »

Are you suggesting statutory chimney sweeping? Or statutory chip pan checks?

If you read my post you will see that I referred specifically to domestic electrical fires. I am suggesting that there have been many fires in domestic installations as a direct result of poor wiring.

I don't think that counting the number of fatalities from poor wiring should be used to decide whether a sufficiently qualified and insured person is used to wire a home.

antiskeptic

2011 wrote: »

If you read my post you will see that I referred specifically to domestic electrical fires. I am suggesting that there have been many fires in domestic installations as a direct result of poor wiring.



I don't think that counting the number of fatalities from poor wiring should be used to decide whether a sufficiently qualified and insured person is used to wire a home.

Understood. I was introducing the idea that a cost/benefit be done. It would naturally take account of electrocutions, fires due to poor electrics etc. I am supposing however (taking the low number of electrocutions) that fires due to modern, non-RECI level installs is low. Fires due to ancient wiring, old circuits overloaded by modern day loading would probably form the bulk of the problem - something which isn't covered by the current standards.

Doing some electrical work recently, I came across one of those crap joiner boxes under the floorboards: you know the one where the connection is a split/thread pillar with a screw tightening down on the cable. The more you tighten the screw, the more the pillars spread. What a crap design. Anyway, screws are loose and cables rattling around under it.

Which is more dangerous: the presence of such connectors (for which no regs exist) or a new installation carried out by a trade qualified electrician. Do you suppose vested interest RECI are finished or do you suppose that they will start driving the wedge in further. Obligatory periodic inspections? Obligatory rewires (some hope: politicians need reelection). It would appear that the concern isn't to focus on area of maximum danger. The concern is to focus on that which can be landgrabbed with minimum political fuss.





Since we don't have statutory obligations in areas commonly causing fires (chimney fires due to unswept chimneys, cheap, chinese phone chargers, chip pan fires, very old wiring systems, etc) why would be particularly worried about the odd fire caused by an electrical installation incorrectly performed by a trade qualified electrician?

2011

antiskeptic wrote: »

Fires due to ancient wiring, old circuits overloaded by modern day loading would probably form the bulk of the problem - something which isn't covered by the current standards.

What do you mean "isn't covered by current standards"? It is.

Since we don't have statutory obligations in areas commonly causing fires (chimney fires due to unswept chimneys, cheap, chinese phone chargers, chip pan fires, very old wiring systems, etc)

why would be particularly worried about fires caused by an electrical installation incorrectly performed by a trade qualified electrician?

Personally I don't see an increased risk just because an electrician is not registered. My view is that the real risk is down to how conscientious the qualified electrician is. Whether he is a paid up member of RECI or not will have no bearing on the quality of work produced in my opinion.