Bye bye Public Services Card

previousmass

circular flexing wrote: »

Why not? Requiring a PSC to e.g. renew a passport was just a nonsense. I don't think it should be kept around for verifying social welfare payments though.

They don't require a psc to renew a passport. Maybe they did at some point but I renewed my passport without having one.

banie01

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would have considered the Department is bound by the National Archives Act of 1986 which stipulates that no record can be destroyed without formal certification from the Archives.

The National Archives have guidance in this area, advising that national legislation supersedes the GDPR in relation to the retention/destruction of national records. I'd be interested to know if the DPC made any reference to this obligation in their determination.

It very much depends on the definition of records and I'm sure the act lays that out.

I haven't read the archives act, so I don't have an informed opinion.
I would assume however that the archives act would relate to the census, CSO data, Government correspondence, legal advice, Policy advice, minutes of meetings and so on?

Rather than holding copies of bills, and other personal data submitted by citizens in support of a PSC card application?

InTheShadows

I've used it for various services and think it's a great idea.

KildareP

Never bothered getting one myself either although they have been hounding me endlessly and going to the liberty of making several appointments "for my convenience".


Wouldn't mind but the appointments are office hours only, meaning I'd have to take time off work and frankly, there's nothing I'm currently entitled to that requires a PSC - so why bother!

dhaughton99

A cock up to begin with because you couldn’t use it as id due to no date of birth on it. Thought there was a new one coming out next year? Mine expires in 2020 anyway.

Snow Garden

What kind of gobdaws are running this tiny country??

yrreg0850

Something will have to be done as regards ID.
While I think the introduction of this card was a back door to a national identity --(possibly on the instructions from Brussles)


An elderly relation of mine who has neither a passport, or driving licence , was unable to open a post office account recently using this card as ID.

Roger_007

Snow Garden wrote: »

What kind of gobdaws are running this tiny country??

They are elected by the gobdaws who live here.

kunst nugget

previousmass wrote: »

They don't require a psc to renew a passport. Maybe they did at some point but I renewed my passport without having one.

If your passport was less than five years out of date then you didn't need one.

fmpisces

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

Yep I get that's the case by and large, but I have been able to use it a couple of times since I got it.

Vologda69

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

The NDLS accept it as photo ID instead of a passport if you lose your licence

angel eyes 2012

banie01 wrote: »

It very much depends on the definition of records and I'm sure the act lays that out.

I haven't read the archives act, so I don't have an informed opinion.
I would assume however that the archives act would relate to the census, CSO data, Government correspondence, legal advice, Policy advice, minutes of meetings and so on?

Rather than holding copies of bills, and other personal data submitted by citizens in support of a PSC card application?

Section 2 of the Act provides for a very board interpretation of the definition of a record that falls under the remit of the National Archives and the examples you have cited are not expressly stated, however terms like “files”; “papers” and “other processed material” are.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

Neamhshuntasach

McGaggs wrote: »

But the PSC has never been a valid form of ID.

I ended up with only due to paternity leave and it was required.

But I have since travelled to London numerous times using it when I lost a bag with passport and license in it. And both Aer Lingus and BA have accepted it as ID. As did immigration on both sides. So it does appear to be valid for the common travel area anyways.

Harry Palmr

Where does this leave anyone who was planning on registering with MyGov.ie Do they have to come up with a different system?

Vetch

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Section 2 of the Act provides for a very board interpretation of the definition of a record that falls under the remit of the National Archives and the examples you have cited are not expressly stated, however terms like “files”; “papers” and “other processed material” are.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

There is an established process (under the law) for destruction of records https://www.nationalarchives.ie/services-to-government-and-courts/disposal-of-departmental-records/.

banie01

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

.

I am not disputing the Department in this case cannot hold on to the material indefinitely, however Departments have to be cognisant of national legislation and can't just start shredding documents that the ordinary joe soap would consider superfluous, otherwise it leaves Departments free to destroy all manner of records. A qualified archivist can only make that determination in consultation with the appropriate Department.

I'd certainly agree that the documents held by the Government and their archival value is something that needs to be both addressed and IMHO legislated for.
The archival value of Paddy Joe's ESB bill, is quite different IMO than the archival value of Paddy Joe's census entries.

The same people that are delighted that the ODPC has put manners on the Govt, would be aghast if the same Govt decided to apply the GDPR criteria to broad swathes of Govt files

That said, I do not have any knowledge at all of the Archives act but I certainly do appreciate the importance of ensuring a degree of "completeness" in the state archives.

On a side Angel Eyes, I always enjoy seeing your contributions on privacy and GDPR concerns.
Always a view that I find I hadn't quite considered and always something to learn from them.

Plumbthedepths

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

banie01

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

The PSC card in and of itself isnt really the problem IMHO.
What is very much at issue, and is very much a result of the political efforts to spread the reach of the PSC is again the competence of the politicians that drove the spread of the "mandatory but not compulsory" drive to integrate the PSC across multiple services and departments.

The original legislation giving rise to the PSC is not at all appropriate for the uses it was forced to.

That said, I really do feel that a single integrated record could make huge inroads into the administration costs of SW, revenue and other departments.

That needs to balanced however with the risks that a breach of such a voluminous system could have on citizens.
Take the recent hack of the tax records in Bulgaria as an example.

TLDR: The PSC card is in its essence a good idea, however the usual Irish poor legislation, poor implementation and creep have torpedeod it.
Without significant revised legislative basis, it should be fully restricted to the originally legislated intent.

ted1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Why not? It's clear that this was an attempt by FG to introduce a mandatory ID card and more critically, collect and reference a whole lot of data they had no business to.

Given the general incompetence of most state institutions (individual people who may be excellent aside), this outcome is a great result as it was only a matter of time before a significant breach or abuse of the data came to light.

I don't have one myself and fingers crossed I will never need one.

I think a national ID is good. There’s to many people taking advantage of the system and this would help eliminate it.

Plumbthedepths

[quote=

TLDR: The PSC card is in its essence a good idea, however the usual Irish poor legislation, poor implementation and creep have torpedeod it.
Without significant revised legislative basis, it should be fully restricted to the originally legislated intent.[/quote]

I have no issue with the card being used to interact with the DESP, if the government wants to introduce an all encompassing ID card again no issue but it needs to be done in an open and transparent manner and put before the Dail for debate. As usual FG went the arrogance route.

Robbo

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

I would have considered the Department is bound by the National Archives Act of 1986 which stipulates that no record can be destroyed without formal certification from the Archives.

The National Archives have guidance in this area, advising that national legislation supersedes the GDPR in relation to the retention/destruction of national records. I'd be interested to know if the DPC made any reference to this obligation in their determination.

There's an exemption within the GDPR for public interest archiving. Of course when you've gathered the data unlawfully in the first place, you've long since sailed past using this exemption.

The Commissioner is entirely correct to order deletion in this case and the National Archives would be poorly advised if they took the misguided view that they could hold on to their plunder.

banie01

Robbo wrote: »

There's an exemption within the GDPR for public interest archiving. Of course when you've gathered the data unlawfully in the first place, you've long since sailed past using this exemption.

The Commissioner is entirely correct to order deletion in this case and the National Archives would be poorly advised if they took the misguided view that they could hold on to their plunder.

Theres something I hadn't even considered.
Unlawfully obtained in the 1st place rather than unlawfully retained!
Thanks Robbo.

Odyssey 2005

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Regina Doherty when asked over the last few years was more or less saying ah sure it’ll be grand

Chancer or lazy I don’t know

She should be sacked ASAP

If veruka wont sack TD's for trying to scam insurance companies hes not going to sack them for incompetence.

BorneTobyWilde

Seve OB wrote: »

am i the only person in the country who never got one of these in the first place?

Good for you, but it was forced on people, either that or you were hell captive in your own country, no freedom to travel even within the EU. So I had to get one, just to travel.

BorneTobyWilde

It was head over the barrel stuff from the government. Hell captive in your own country unless you get one, no drivers license unless you get one!!!
It was a complete joke. I just renewed my license today, and it was demanded too.

kneemos

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

Probably saved a minor fortune in duplicate welfare claims.

kneemos

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It was head over the barrel stuff from the government. Hell captive in your own country unless you get one, no drivers license unless you get one!!!
It was a complete joke. I just renewed my license today, and it was demanded too.

Here's the requirements for getting a driving license with and without a PSC.
Looks a whole lot easier with.

https://www.ndls.ie/how-to-apply.html

Similarly with a passport. Simpler and quicker.

Stark

Certainly not having to deal with proof of address nonsense is a welcome benefit, especially in this age of paperless billing. So worth it from that point of view.

It's good to see the Commissioner on the ball though and making sure the whole thing is done right.

Plumbthedepths

kneemos wrote: »

Probably saved a minor fortune in duplicate welfare claims.

That's fine if it did, but the required use by government for other services the citizen required has now being found to outside of the law. As I said another F**K UP by FG.

RobbingBandit

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Damn I lost my pps free travel card two weeks ago reported it on the day and still haven't received a replacement now I know why

You still need the PSC card for free travel and to access welfare payments etc.