Bye bye Public Services Card

Plumbthedepths

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

A centralised system that can cross check peoples welfare, revenue and general status e.g. married, permission to work etc, and which can easily share this info with other EU member states sounds like a sensible idea to me. It could instantly detect anyone working and claiming welfare, working when their permission has expired, woking while a spouse is claiming for them etc.

Apparrantely that makes me a right wing extremist, in some circles

Makes you wonder why FG just didn't introduce legislation for an ID card and have a debate in the Dail instead of the underhanded method they tried. You can be damn sure with those weasels in FG there was something underhanded going on.

thomas 123

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Makes you wonder why FG just didn't introduce legislation for an ID card and have a debate in the Dail instead of the underhanded method they tried. You can be damn sure with those weasels in FG there was something underhanded going on.

Sure you can’t have a debate in the Dail with Fine Gael.

If your Sinn Fein your point is invalid because your a terrorist.

If your independent your mental.

If your fine fail your on side.

AllGunsBlazing

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Makes you wonder why FG just didn't introduce legislation for an ID card and have a debate in the Dail instead of the underhanded method they tried. You can be damn sure with those weasels in FG there was something underhanded going on.

Acting the cute hoor is very much ingrained within Irish politics. It's practically part of our culture, sadly.

Nothing can be done in the plain light of day. It always has be done in the shadows.

TheRiverman

So our pathetic Government broke the law and now they want to try and change it.
Please people vote this awful shower out of Government at the next election.

Sleeper12

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You surprised?

At this stage no. Not surprised at all. Wasted billions on Irish Water, turned Gardai against the public in the process, Children's hospital in the wrong place and it becoming the most expensive children's hospital in the world, rural broadband another blank cheque & more concerned with who broke the story of a TD making exaggerating or false claims in a civil action than what the TD did, allowed housing, rent and homelessness become a crisis. The list is endless and I haven't even mentioned the illegal sacking of Garda superintendents.

There is a very short list of things FG have achieved in government.

Sleeper12

TheRiverman wrote: »

So our pathetic Government broke the law and now they want to try and change it.
Please people vote this awful shower out of Government at the next election.

Everyone & their dog knew what they were doing was illegal yet they ignored this time and again when pointed out to them.

thomas 123

Sleeper12 wrote: »

At this stage no. Not surprised at all. Wasted billions on Irish Water, turned Gardai against the public in the process, Children's hospital in the wrong place and it becoming the most expensive children's hospital in the world, rural broadband another blank cheque & more concerned with who broke the story of a TD making exaggerating or false claims in a civil action than what the TD did, allowed housing, rent and homelessness become a crisis. The list is endless and I haven't even mentioned the illegal sacking of Garda superintendents.

There is a very short list of things FG have achieved in government.

Don’t forget the cervical checks, the 2 million fake breath tests, army and navy on their knees.

martingriff

The Highwayman wrote: »

Do you like the idea of facial ID camera's and micro chipping people too?

Are you the type of person who uses fingerprint or face scan to unlock their phone?

Micro chipping WTF are you talking. Plenty of countries with national ID card and none of that happens. Conspiratorial much.

As a matter of fact I use a design drawn to unlock my phones. I did use the fingerprint for a while but found it took 2 long

jimjangles

The government broke the law and now they want to change the law.
It's like Judge Dredd "I am the law".
Crafty feckers aren't they lol.

kippy

Fairly simple fix really to resolve the issue that the ODPC has identified.
Anything that helps reduce fraud and adds a simple single method of accessing numerous state services should be welcomed.
People ask for better public services, value for money and efficiency on one hand yet try to stop moves towards improving all three on the other.

TheChizler

thomas 123 wrote: »

Similar to eircode, how did that cost 20 odd million?

It didn't, the cost was €20M over something like 10 years. Wouldn't get much change out of a national rollout and a handful of people in an office to maintain it.

thomas 123

TheChizler wrote: »

It didn't, the cost was €20M over something like 10 years. Wouldn't get much change out of a national rollout and a handful of people in an office to maintain it.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/eircode-there-goes-another-38m-down-the-drain-1.2972751%3fmode=amp

Not to derail the thread - but 38 million is the actual figure according to the Irish times.

You say national roll out? What roll out? It’s a code assigned to each address in the state. Nothing further required aside from assigning the location of each address in the database(using coordinates) for the website and for when you put the code into your phone for maps.

But like this card system id love to see the actual breakdown of costs, where did the money go exactly?

TheChizler

thomas 123 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/eircode-there-goes-another-38m-down-the-drain-1.2972751%3fmode=amp

Not to derail the thread - but 38 million is the actual figure according to the Irish times.

You say national roll out? What roll out? It’s a code assigned to each address in the state. Nothing further required aside from assigning the location of each address in the database(using coordinates) for the website and for when you put the code into your phone for maps.

But like this card system id love to see the actual breakdown of costs, where did the money go exactly?

I was only quoting you. my point is it was spread over a decade and the entire sum hasn't been spent yet.

But just to paraphrase what Dudara said above, its not just a database. Similarly to the PSC there's planning, consultation with stakeholders, software and infrastructure development, testing, sending a letter to every household in the country, advertising, integration with 3rd parties, forward maintenance, and about 20 other things I've left out.

thomas 123

TheChizler wrote: »

I was only quoting you. my point is it was spread over a decade and the entire sum hasn't been spent yet.

But just to paraphrase what Dudara said above, its not just a database. Similarly to the PSC there's planning, consultation with stakeholders, software and infrastructure development, testing, sending a letter to every household in the country, advertising, integration with 3rd parties, forward maintenance, and about 20 other things I've left out.

Ah ya 100% I was fact checking myself there.

dhaughton99

TheChizler wrote: »

It didn't, the cost was €20M over something like 10 years. Wouldn't get much change out of a national rollout and a handful of people in an office to maintain it.

And most of that will go to RTE through ads for eircode.

Eric Cartman

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

A centralised system that can cross check peoples welfare, revenue and general status e.g. married, permission to work etc, and which can easily share this info with other EU member states sounds like a sensible idea to me. It could instantly detect anyone working and claiming welfare, working when their permission has expired, woking while a spouse is claiming for them etc.

Apparrantely that makes me a right wing extremist, in some circles

How absolutely dare one of the most generous welfare systems in the world have any method for checking for fraud and establishing somebodys ability to work an immigration status, how very dare they.

Plumbthedepths

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How absolutely dare one of the most generous welfare systems in the world have any method for checking for fraud and establishing somebodys ability to work an immigration status, how very dare they.

There was no problem with the initial idea behind the card had FG stuck to its original intended use. Sadly arrogance always gets the better of FG. Now the state is looking at potential claims for breaches of GDPR from holders of these cards.

kippy

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

There was no problem with the initial idea behind the card had FG stuck to its original intended use. Sadly arrogance always gets the better of FG. Now the state is looking at potential claims for breaches of GDPR from holders of these cards.

The problem is, there are lots of people out there who were and still are against the very concept of the PSC. You can see them on this very thread. There's another subsection of people that have very little understanding of the costs involved in major projects and complain at will when the state spends money.
The states implementation if this, no more than the implementation of Irish Water and other beneficial and generally good projects is my main gripe. Its the latest in a long line of poorly planned and implemented concepts. Seemingly no one has learned from the previous ones.
The fix for this is legislation and no doubt some compensation to cover the possible GDPR fines. Hopefully there will be some learning but I doubt it. Every government, not just this one tend to overspend hundreds of millions of taxpayers money.

Calhoun

Big question now is if Doherty will go, so close to an election they won't want to be carrying this negative press, not along with the stealth taxes in the form of a broadcast charge.

McMurphy

Portsalon wrote: »

Is there any way in which I can notify the various Government Departments who hold my records that I am quite happy for them to retain my "massively sensitive" personal data* indefinitely and that I really couldn't give a donkey's turd for the worthless views of the DPC and the rest of the tinfoil hat wearing civil liberties nutjobs?

* (name, address, gender, DoB, PPSN, penis length and girth, foot size, blood group, favourite colour and mobile phone number)

Oooh you're a real mad bastard.

IAMAMORON

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Another expensive F**k up by FG, what a surprise......

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I have no issue with the card being used to interact with the DESP, if the government wants to introduce an all encompassing ID card again no issue but it needs to be done in an open and transparent manner and put before the Dail for debate. As usual FG went the arrogance route.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That's fine if it did, but the required use by government for other services the citizen required has now being found to outside of the law. As I said another F**K UP by FG.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Which makes you wonder why FG decided not to introduce an identity card in the correct manner. The DPC is doing her job as set out in legislation. She's competent, FG have been shown to be the opposite and quite willing to play fast and loose with taxpayers money. I suggest your direct your irritation at those responsible for this F**k Up and not the person who is fulfilling the functions of her office.
Just as an aside , why were you delighted? Curious comment tbh.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Of course you don't need my approval just pointing out you are completely wrong in whom you are blaming for this F**k up . The fault unless you have a bias is entirely the fault of government as pointed out by almost every commentator since the DPC made her finding .
You still never explained your delight with the card, any interest in doing so?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

This F**k up by FG has cost the taxpayers of this country 60 million and has made the state liable for data protection breaches if individuals wish to sue even if they suffered no harm. Take a bow FG you absolute bunch of incompetent imbeciles.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Thanks it's a forum for opinions and expression however your sarcasm is noted. Any thoughts yourself on the f**k up considering you are a state employee?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Makes you wonder why FG just didn't introduce legislation for an ID card and have a debate in the Dail instead of the underhanded method they tried. You can be damn sure with those weasels in FG there was something underhanded going on.

I appreciate you are not a fan of Fine Gael....

What I fail to understand is how you are blaming them as a result of a legal ruling? Surely such rulings are beyond their control?

This is more of a rational response to your posts as opposed to a question. I respect they mightn't be getting your vote any time soon.

ddarcy

IAMAMORON wrote: »

What I fail to understand is how you are blaming them as a result of a legal ruling? Surely such rulings are beyond their control?

Through any normal legislative process the attorney general should have been consulted. If this was the case then I’d bet that this would have been flagged.

So either FG didn’t do this (the arrogance argument), the AG isn’t fit for purpose by not flagging it (the incompetence argument as FG appointed the AG) or the AG flagged it and FG ignored the AGs advice (the arrogance and incompetence argument).

One of the above occurred and whatever occurred makes FG look bad.

Plumbthedepths

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I appreciate you are not a fan of Fine Gael....

What I fail to understand is how you are blaming them as a result of a legal ruling? Surely such rulings are beyond their control?

This is more of a rational response to your posts as opposed to a question. I respect they mightn't be getting your vote any time soon.

FG were warned of the legality of what they were attempting several years ago by digital rights Ireland and the DPC. All warnings were ignored, due to the usual arrogance FG engages in.
You are correct they will not be getting my vote for a host of reasons, this F**k up is just another in the long line of F**k ups I've come to expect from them.
However it is strange you went to the effort of gathering every comment I made.
I'm guessing though they will have your vote no matter what.. ;-)

IAMAMORON

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

FG were warned of the legality of what they were attempting several years ago by digital rights Ireland and the DPC. All warnings were ignored, due to the usual arrogance FG engages in.
You are correct they will not be getting my vote for a host of reasons, this F**k up is just another in the long line of F**k ups I've come to expect from them.
However it is strange you went to the effort of gathering every comment I made.
I'm guessing though they will have your vote no matter what.. ;-)

Do you think they disregarded the warnings by digital rights ireland ? As an aside did fg engage digital rights ireland for advice on the matter, where their findings published ?

IAMAMORON

ddarcy wrote: »

Through any normal legislative process the attorney general should have been consulted. If this was the case then I’d bet that this would have been flagged.

So either FG didn’t do this (the arrogance argument), the AG isn’t fit for purpose by not flagging it (the incompetence argument as FG appointed the AG) or the AG flagged it and FG ignored the AGs advice (the arrogance and incompetence argument).

One of the above occurred and whatever occurred makes FG look bad.

Looks like your not voting for them again either.

Plumbthedepths

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Do you think they disregarded the warnings by digital rights ireland ? As an aside did fg engage digital rights ireland for advice on the matter, where their findings published ?

The fact the legality of the card is in question despite the warnings answers your question.
As for the rest of your comment, living up to your username?

McMurphy

They never seem to learn though, that's what's most worrying about them.

(In reference to Leo Varadkar) While acknowledging there would need to be "some changes around the retention of data and around transparency", he signalled ministers would move to legislate to strengthen the legal basis of the card.

However, solicitor and data protection expert Simon McGarr said this would not be possible under EU law.

"The system they set up is not amenable to EU laws. Had they wanted to have an ID card system they could have had one," he said. "You can't retrospectively introduce legislation which will give effect to a project as it stands at the moment that will be compliant with EU law."

Floppybits

Calhoun wrote: »

Big question now is if Doherty will go, so close to an election they won't want to be carrying this negative press, not along with the stealth taxes in the form of a broadcast charge.

There is no way Doherty will go, she would have to be either dragged out kicking or screaming or in a box. Even if she lost her seat she still wouldn't leave.

Plumbthedepths

According to today's Indo seems Doherty is challenging Madigan for the title of hide and seek champion.

Calhoun

Floppybits wrote: »

There is no way Doherty will go, she would have to be either dragged out kicking or screaming or in a box. Even if she lost her seat she still wouldn't leave.

She might not have an option if the pressure keeps up, we saw the impact Bailey had on the local elections they won't risk another case like that.