Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

devnull

Boris apparently is no longer speaking to Channel 4 and will now select which media outlets he speaks to.

There's also talk from Adam Boulton on Sky that certain people in the Conservative party are now setting pre-conditions on interviewing any of their MPs which broadcasters must agree to or nobody will appear on them.

Sounds very reminiscent of Donald Trump. I wonder how long it will be before Johnson is speaking about Fake News and the Mainstream Media.

Stop moaning ffs

devnull wrote: »

Boris apparently is no longer speaking to Channel 4 and will now select which media outlets he speaks to.

There's also talk from Adam Boulton on Sky that certain people in the Conservative party are now setting pre-conditions on interviewing any of their MPs which broadcasters must agree to or nobody will appear on them.

Sounds very reminiscent of Donald Trump. I wonder how long it will be before Johnson is speaking about Fake News and the Mainstream Media.

This comes after the head of channel 4 saying Johnson is a liar. He has demonstrably lied. And media in the uk needs to start calling these politicians liars when they lie.

C4 invited to Biarritz along with all UK media and then refused time with Johnson.

Trump playbook page 3.

InTheShadows

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

People have a democratic right to protest.

You are here regularly saying that democracy must be respected.

You can’t object to it when it doesn’t suit you.

I'm sorry where did I say I objected? I simply asked is it a thing now.

InTheShadows

devnull wrote: »

Boris apparently is no longer speaking to Channel 4 and will now select which media outlets he speaks to.

There's also talk from Adam Boulton on Sky that certain people in the Conservative party are now setting pre-conditions on interviewing any of their MPs which broadcasters must agree to or nobody will appear on them.

Sounds very reminiscent of Donald Trump. I wonder how long it will be before Johnson is speaking about Fake News and the Mainstream Media.

Boris is right. Sky media have a huge vested interest in subverting democracy and stopping Brexit.

prawnsambo

InTheShadows wrote: »

I'm sorry where did I say I objected? I simply asked is it a thing now.

Somewhere in that acronym is complete agreement with the sentiment I presume?

InTheShadows wrote: »

#stopthecoup �� seriously is that a thing now ffs

Igotadose

On a different note, does the Conservative party actually have an agenda other than 'Brexit?' Did they put forward any non-Brexit legislation of consequence in this Parliamentary session? Like, dealing with Grenfell Tower? NHS? Poverty? Crime? And can we expect, should Parliament prorogue, that the speech in October will be full of detail about non-Brexit issues?

Not trying to wind anything up here, just overloaded with the Brexit car-crash atop the daily Trump car-crashes.

Stop moaning ffs

Igotadose wrote: »

On a different note, does the Conservative party actually have an agenda other than 'Brexit?' Did they put forward any non-Brexit legislation of consequence in this Parliamentary session? Like, dealing with Grenfell Tower? NHS? Poverty? Crime? And can we expect, should Parliament prorogue, that the speech in October will be full of detail about non-Brexit issues?

Not trying to wind anything up here, just overloaded with the Brexit car-crash atop the daily Trump car-crashes.

All the Brexit pods I listen to have all said at different stages the nothing is being done. Brexit is sucking up all the political oxygen to use their phrase.

prawnsambo

Igotadose wrote: »

On a different note, does the Conservative party actually have an agenda other than 'Brexit?' Did they put forward any non-Brexit legislation of consequence in this Parliamentary session? Like, dealing with Grenfell Tower? NHS? Poverty? Crime? And can we expect, should Parliament prorogue, that the speech in October will be full of detail about non-Brexit issues?

Not trying to wind anything up here, just overloaded with the Brexit car-crash atop the daily Trump car-crashes.

I assume we'll hear all about it in the Queen's speech on 14th October.

is_that_so

InTheShadows wrote: »

Boris is right. Sky media have a huge vested interest in subverting democracy and stopping Brexit.

Once democracy is invoked you know someone doesn't really care about it, just a version that suits them. Referenda are the most risky form of democracy as they are subject to all manner of deception and manipulation. We know this because we've become pretty good at them. How does stopping Brexit supposedly benefit them?

lawred2

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Is that unelected Boris who suspended parliament to prevent democratically elected MPs doing their democratic jobs?

Trumpism has now infected this side of the Atlantic. This disease needs to run its course to expose to all the underlying idiocy and contradictions. UK is going to be sick man of Europe for decades, best we do our thing and not get dragged down by them.

Why are you biting?

Leroy42

very interesting point by Alex Andreou in the latest Remainiacs podcast.

In summary, he said that all the posturing on No Deal and the impact it was having on the EU was nonsense as the EU are not looking at whether Johnson believes in No Deal or not, that is irrelevant really, but looking at the practicalities. Are the UK ready to leave without a deal 'on 31 Oct?

Even based on the statements by Steve Barkley on Twitter it is very clear that they are in no way prepared for No Deal. So whilst Johnson may well claim to be prepared to crash out, the EU are aware that it would be monumentally stupid to do so.

My own extension to that is that if Johnson is prepared to act so manifestly against the wishes of his country and the actually inflict real damage in the process then there is very little that can be negotiated as they are not dealing with a rational actor.

Enzokk

I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking

A furious Sajid Javid confronted Boris Johnson on Friday and demanded an explanation of why his media adviser was sacked without his knowledge, amid claims that a deep “culture of fear” has taken hold within the government.

Sonia Khan, Javid’s media adviser, was escorted from No 10 by an armed police officer after a meeting with Johnson’s top strategist, Dominic Cummings, in which she was accused of being dishonest about her contact with the former chancellor Philip Hammond and one of his ex-advisers, who have been trying to block a no-deal Brexit.

Khan is the second adviser working for the chancellor to be sacked by No 10. She is also the fourth young woman in a month to be axed from the prime minister’s network of advisers and senior staffers.

Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,

The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, was among the critics of how Cummings had effectively undermined the chancellor and the Treasury. He tweeted: “Would be better if Dominic Cummings came along next week to present the spending review as he’s obviously in charge of the Treasury as well as No 10.

“If you can’t speak without his permission and can’t even decide your own staffing, you’re hardly the chancellor.”

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking



Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,

Khan could resign like...

MarinersBlues

In reply to a deleted post that referenced this tweet
https://mobile.twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1167162506135121926?s=21


Interesting thread but he seems to have made an assumption, built arguments to support it and gone looking for data.

The poor understanding of statistics and bayesian inference in the writers part could be intentional to support his points or unintentional because he is just messing around with tweets.

It is an interesting theory though and I would expect it to be true, but he hasn't come close to proving it.

prawnsambo

Enzokk wrote: »

I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away. To think he is only there because of lies and deception and law breaking.

'Culture of fear' claims as Javid confronts PM over adviser's sacking

Sounds like Cummings has a problem with woman if he is quick to fire them over what seems to be nothing.

I did like this quote from John McDonnell which pretty much nails what is happening right now,

Doesn't look like Cummings is the genius everyone thinks he is. This stuff is just going to turn the cabinet against Johnson/Cummings and the leaks will increase, not reduce. They'll just get better at not getting caught. And they're doing all this in public. As if to frighten everyone else. But it's also making the likes of Javid look weak. Childish stuff really.

prawnsambo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

In reply to a deleted post that referenced this tweet
https://mobile.twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1167162506135121926?s=21

Interesting thread but he seems to have made an assumption, built arguments to support it and gone looking for data.

The poor understanding of statistics and bayesian inference in the writers part could be intentional to support his points or unintentional because he is just messing around with tweets.

It is an interesting theory though and I would expect it to be true, but he hasn't come close to proving it.

To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.

Leroy42

This is the same Sajid Javid that was not even informed as to why he was not invited to attend the Trump dinner recently?

The man knows he is only there as a tool for Johnson, he is no more the chancellor than I am

Stop moaning ffs

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.

Have a look at just one page of the replies. These are bots. There’s no two ways about it. Same exact language you see under trumps tweets

beggars_bush

Johnson has been quite shrewd though

Mention all the things people are worried about - crime, policing, education funding

They've found extra money for schools and next up will be the NHS

It's like they're trying to buy off the middle class voting opposition

CelticRambler

Leroy42 wrote: »

In summary, he said that all the posturing on No Deal and the impact it was having on the EU was nonsense as the EU are not looking at whether Johnson believes in No Deal or not, that is irrelevant really, but looking at the practicalities. Are the UK ready to leave without a deal 'on 31 Oct?

The EU has also been completely consistent over many months now saying: "here's the deal we agreed, taking account of your country's red lines; if you don't like it, come up with a practical alternative that we can act on (within 30 days :P)." The UK responds with ... nothing.

Enzokk wrote: »

I would say the trends emerging from the UK Government is worrying. There is a slow dismantling of what they supposedly valued, democracy and openness, that Cummings is trying to erode away.

Only a little bit worrying. The logical outcome of these shenanigans is the break-up of the UK, leaving these people in charge of a much diminished England(&-did-someone-mention-Wales-?) If the UK loses Scotland and NI, it's entirely possible that the Crown will also lose affiliate territories like Gibraltar, the Channel Islands and Anguilla. Rather like BKtje, somewhat unfairly criticised above IMO, the people living in these areas will be constantly reviewing the strength of their bond with their supposed fellow-citizens hundreds/thousands of miles away, compared to the relationship they have with "foreigners" that they interact with every day. Dismantling democracy in the motherland could well precipitate a string of declarations of independence and a relalignment of economic interests.

prawnsambo

Upping the stakes to drive them into fearful Tory hearts.

Stop moaning ffs

prawnsambo wrote: »

Upping the stakes to drive them into fearful Tory hearts.

That’s huge.

This is the end of the tories

Stop moaning ffs

Worth a read.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1167737252270739456?s=21

J Mysterio

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s huge.

This is the end of the tories

And the dawn of a glorious new era where dissent will not be tolerated and the party line will be strictly followed at all times.

Any dissenters will be found and will be fired on the spot, before being frogmarched from governent buildings. Their phones will be checked and will be scrutinised. Only true believers are accepted and they must sign the pledge on indoctrination induction.

MarinersBlues

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, I have noticed over the last couple of years, a lot of MAGA/Trump supporters tweeting in favour of brexit. It's a bit strange imo.

Not really.
Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming!

It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M

12,177 individual accounts I analysed, 1025 were #MAGA accounts.

proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

Tweets per million supporters is
8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.


Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.

Stop moaning ffs

J Mysterio wrote: »

And the dawn of a glorious new era where dissent will not be tolerated and the party line will be strictly followed at all times.

Any dissenters will be found and will be fired on the spot, before being frogmarched from governent buildings. Their phones will be checked and will be scrutinised. Only true believers are accepted and they must sign the pledge on indoctrination induction.

Sure feels and looks like it is headed that very direction.

“That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn't even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television. There wasn't even an enemy you could put your finger on.”
― Margaret Atwood

briany

What about JRM's comments that prorogation is just, 'normal procedure'? If it's such an egregious move, even the smooth-talking Mogg shouldn't be able to avoid being taken well to task on it by any half-competent interviewer. Or is it a case of 'malicious compliance'?

Calling the move undemocratic - that may well be true, but the trouble is that it gets us nowhere. The people calling it undemocratic are in turn called undemocratic for trying to block Brexit. The word has become a grenade tossed back and forth between the trenches. Both sides are sure they have the moral high ground, so that it looks like we're in a political M.C. Escher drawing.

And the architects of Brexit love it. They know it's paralysing, and all they need now is inertia to get to their goal. Just keep on feeding the fire, keep on digging that line of division, and it's game over.

who the fug

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The propaganda campaign to whitewash American food has begun
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48915578

Next they be telling people there's nothing wrong with gm and/or chlorinated food. At this rate it will be Irish farmers blocking the roads from North to protect their livelihoods.

there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.

devnull

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The propaganda campaign to whitewash American food has begun
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48915578

Next they be telling people there's nothing wrong with gm and/or chlorinated food. At this rate it will be Irish farmers blocking the roads from North to protect their livelihoods.

I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.

Imreoir2

who the fug wrote: »

there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.

Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.