Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

who the fug

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.

the process in itself is not dangerous ,

Stop moaning ffs

who the fug wrote: »

the process in itself is not dangerous ,

It’s why the process happens at all is the problem. As the poster pointed out.

Imreoir2

who the fug wrote: »

the process in itself is not dangerous ,

Perhaps you should re-read the post, I did not claim the process was dangerous, what the process is trying to hide is dangerous though.

prawnsambo

who the fug wrote: »

there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.

The prepacked salads thing is a red herring. It's effectively washed in tap water that has chlorine in it. Like what comes out of your kitchen tap. The chlorine washing of chicken does not kill all the bacteria, it does 'hide' it though.

Leroy42

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Worth a read.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1167737252270739456?s=21

Doesn't come across as someone that is cracking under the UK pressure.

Bit cynical

fash wrote: »

Is it more, less or equally true to the statement from ToBeFrank123 that Labour, Corbyn and most of the opposition specifically voted against "the backstop" when voting against May's WA ? And if one actually believes that indeed it specifically was the "backstop" that attracted Labour ire (and not as you suggest a general "that's not my brexit, it is too fluffy" voting pattern), would you agree that this behaviour is inconsistent?

I agree it wasn't specifically against the backstop when Labour voted against the WA but at the same time it can't be said that when they voted against the amendment that they were expressing support for the backstop. In both cases they were simply voting against everything that wasn't their version of Brexit.

Stop moaning ffs

Leroy42 wrote: »

Doesn't come across as someone that is cracking under the UK pressure.

Funny. I had the same thought. Watch it be spun as exactly that by th usual outlets

Bit cynical

briany wrote: »

What about JRM's comments that prorogation is just, 'normal procedure'? If it's such an egregious move, even the smooth-talking Mogg shouldn't be able to avoid being taken well to task on it by any half-competent interviewer. Or is it a case of 'malicious compliance'?

Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.

prawnsambo

Bit cynical wrote: »

Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.

It's fairly routine (between sessions of parliament) but only for a few days normally. At party conference time, the HoC goes into recess for approximately three to three and a half weeks, but crucially the HoL doesn't and committees continue to sit as well. So this is far from routine.

Bit cynical

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's fairly routine (between sessions of parliament) but only for a few days normally. At party conference time, the HoC goes into recess for approximately three to three and a half weeks, but crucially the HoL doesn't and committees continue to sit as well. So this is far from routine.

Well in fairness I did say that its use in this context was causing controversy.

Infini

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.

In one of the previous threads a look up of the statistics showed food poisoning in the US is 3 times that of the EU, that's the result of having more stringent regulations: Quality.

prawnsambo

Bit cynical wrote: »

Well in fairness I did say that its use in this context was causing controversy.

Well you also used the word 'strategically', as if this was the only thing causing consternation. I'm pointing out that the length is also an issue and that supporters of the move pointing to the conference season recess are being disingenuous as well.

briany

Bit cynical wrote: »

Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.

I suppose it's a bit like a scary film where two people are being chased by an axe-wielding maniac. They jump into their car, and before they even attempt to go, the driver turns to the other guy and says, "Before we can set off, I have this procedure to run through a checklist to ensure the vehicle is in good working order."

Like, just start the car, ffs.

Sam Russell

[QUOTE=who the fug;111132308]there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.[/QUOTE]

It is not the chlorination that is bad, it is why it is chlorinated that is bad. It is used to combat appalling husbandry in chicken rearing and processing. The outbreaks of food poisoning in the USA is orders of magnitude greater than in the EU due to poor hygiene in chicken products.

As for GM food, some GM is used for controlling the product, to maintain patent rights and prevent the seeds of the produce from being used for future crops. Some of it is used to make it easy to use insecticides in farming.

Neither is good for humans or nature.

MrMusician18

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Not really.
Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming!

It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M


proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

Tweets per million supporters is
8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.


Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.

Cummings must be delighted that the online commentariat consider him to be this God like puppetmaster controlling everything.

It's obviously total rubbish, and someone that belongs in the conspiracy theory forum not a serious political one.

10000maniacs

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Not really.
Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming!

It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M


proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

Tweets per million supporters is
8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.


Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.

There has always been illiberal, closed minded hidebounds in all societies. It's only in the last five years that this sector of society have found their voice in a piece of technology that they can all use. The smartphone. The great leveller. Thanks Steve Jobs. The flat earth community has grown exponentially in the last five years thanks to the smartphone. Go figure.

prawnsambo

Infini wrote: »

In one of the previous threads a look up of the statistics showed food poisoning in the US is 3 times that of the EU, that's the result of having more stringent regulations: Quality.

The CDC (Center for Disease Control in Atlanta) say that 1 in 6 US citizens will suffer a food borne illness every year. However, the CDC rely on reports from hospitals and medical professionals for this statistic. The reality is that people on low incomes who do not have health insurance and who are more exposed to food borne illnesses are not included in those statistics. It is believed that if they were, the stat would be closer to 1 in 3. Whether you agree or not with this, 3,000 deaths a year is a frightening statistic from an advanced economy.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

devnull wrote: »

I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.

The BBC is an establishment platform, always was. It’s leftish to an extent but falls in line when neeed.

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The BBC is an establishment platform, always was. It’s leftish to an extent but falls in line when neeed.

The BBC is a hostage to the licence fee. Always has been. I think it even came up in an episode of Yes Minister.

L1011

prawnsambo wrote: »

The BBC is a hostage to the licence fee. Always has been. I think it even came up in an episode of Yes Minister.

C4s role as commercial state broadcaster is coming in to its own here. And to think it was born of Thatcher!

prawnsambo

Useful thread for those who might have difficulty explaining exactly how the GFA relies on an open border, the role of the EU and how the British government are (and have been) reneging on their responsibilities therein.


https://twitter.com/castlvillageman/status/1167745632146210817
https://twitter.com/castlvillageman/status/1167745645417041920
I've left out some of the tweets (it's 18 long), but well worth reading in its entirety.

sink

devnull wrote: »

I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.

To be fair to them, the article is not inaccurate. Sure its a PR piece designed to boost the reputation of US artisan cheeses, but it doesn't contain any outright falsehoods. I was in California earlier in the year and went to a farmers market in the Nappa Valley region and they had some really great cheeses paired with Californian wines. The were absolutely on par with anything I've tried in Europe.

The problem where it falls down is that it is an extremely niche market. You wont find much high quality cheese in your average supermarket in the US. You might find a cheese counter in upper market stores like Whole Foods, selling a mixture of European imports and local artisan varieties for $30-$50 per lb. But the selection will be far smaller and much more expensive than even your average European supermarket.

Middle class Americans might buy a cheese board for a dinner party when they're trying to impress their guests but they will almost never included high quality Brie or Cheddar as part of their weekly shop.

If the UK looks to a trade deal with the US to replace their European supply on supermarket shelves they will find slim pickings.

Water John

If a person is saying, we have used GM on foods for centuries, they have no knowledge of the technology.

Popeleo

prawnsambo wrote: »

The CDC (Center for Disease Control in Atlanta) say that 1 in 6 US citizens will suffer a food borne illness every year. However, the CDC rely on reports from hospitals and medical professionals for this statistic. The reality is that people on low incomes who do not have health insurance and who are more exposed to food borne illnesses are not included in those statistics. It is believed that if they were, the stat would be closer to 1 in 3. Whether you agree or not with this, 3,000 deaths a year is a frightening statistic from an advanced economy.

Add to all that - possible antibiotic resistance from antibiotics being used routinely in the US and other places to boost animal growth. Much tighter controls in the EU.

prawnsambo

sink wrote: »

Middle class Americans might buy a cheese board for a dinner party when they're trying to impress their guests but they will almost never included high quality Brie or Cheddar as part of their weekly shop.

If the UK looks to a trade deal with the US to replace their European supply on supermarket shelves they will find slim pickings.

I found the price of food in the US (granted it was California) to be significantly higher than here and even higher again than a lot of European countries. Fruit and vegetables were eye-wateringly expensive. And California is a big producer. As for Wholefoods, unbelievably expensive. I remember when Amazon bought them, the comments on the price paid being about right for a basket of groceries there were hilarious.

Water John

Again a multiple of antibiotics are used on animals compared to humans in the US, 3:1 I think.

prawnsambo

Water John wrote: »

If a person is saying, we have used GM on foods for centuries, they have no knowledge of the technology.

This is part of a disinformation campaign in favour of GM. What they are actually referring to is breeding, cross-breeding, hybridisation and selection. Which are nothing like the way GM is carried out or its methodology.

BluePlanet

Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.

The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.
Perhaps even hosting a sort of Brexit Town Hall discussion with locals in their communities; particularly when mitigating factors come into play such as road closures.

SeaBreezes

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

prawnsambo

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

They also lose a huge food provider, right on their doorstep. 400,000 tonnes of beef a year, 80,000 tonnes of cheese. Those are just the highlights.