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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)
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SeaBreezes wrote: »Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4
Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".0 -
Well here's the information on driving licences. Driving with a foreign plate has always had the same rules and they won't change after brexit. You can't live here and drive a car with a foreign plate after (three months iirc). You must formally import the car and pay VRT if applicable. Otherwise, you're like any tourist and can drive a foreign plate for short visits.BluePlanet wrote: »Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.
The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.
Perhaps even hosting a sort of Brexit Town Hall discussion with locals in their communities; particularly when mitigating factors come into play such as road closures.0 -
BluePlanet wrote: »Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.
The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.
What's wrong with people doing a bit of the leg- (or finger-)work themselves? One poster on this thread has already said what happens when the government sends pamphlets.
For reference:
the Irish government's advice - https://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Brexit/
the UK government's advice - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit0 -
Well retaining the backstop implies passing the WA, which would of course maintain trade between the two countries for at least another two years. The opposite is true if it's rejected.Charles Babbage wrote: »Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".0 -
Charles Babbage wrote: »Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".
Actually Boris suggested removing the backstop and all Ireland joining with U.K. Customs!! Ha ha ha ha ha ... cause you can trust Boris, right? :-) now I know why... they make the most money from us!!0 -
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prawnsambo wrote: »They also lose a huge food provider, right on their doorstep. 400,000 tonnes of beef a year, 80,000 tonnes of cheese.
And this is one of the reasons why Ireland's economy will not be destroyed. For all that Brexiters might drool at the thought of importing cheap beef and chicken from America in the future, their constituents will really want to keep eating in the present. Irish (and continental) supermarkets and food processors have had the luxury of being able to look for new suppliers from any one of 26 other countries; British customers haven't had that luxury, so in the short term at least, they'll have no choice but to keep using their existing sources, whatever the price.0 -
SeaBreezes wrote: »Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4
Im firmly of the opinion that the reason the backstop is so impossible to stomach for the UK government, and especial the Conservative Party and Conservative voters is because its the first time in history that Ireland has made its concerns known and asserted its right not to be abused on trodden over by Great Britain.
Brexit is forcing a lot of self-reflection regards the UKs eminence and power in the world today based on how they in fact do not hold all of the cards in discussions with the EU and have not got the easiest trade deal ever, the German car manufacturers not only arent putting pressure on for an agreement, but have made it clear the single market is more important and want that protected. This is difficult enough for that type of person, however the notion that Ireland and the Irish will be getting a legal guarantee (because thats all the backstop is, a legal guarantee the UK government will actually do what it claims its 100% committed to doing anyway) is beyond comprehension.
We take it as normal that UK government officials have said we need to know our place, if we dont like it we can lump it, they should cut off our food supply if we dont fall in line, but imagine another western European country saying that about a neighbour; Germany about Denmark, France about Belgium, or perhaps Russia about Finland or any other eastern EU member in matters that materially impact that member. Its absolutely not in anyway normal or acceptable. If the EU was even half-heartedly suggesting blockading food from entering Switzerland over a disagreement to force them to fall in line, I would feel very worried and very angry, however as mentioned, this attitude from GB to Ireland is nearly just seen as normal. It reflects the relationship that previously existed for centuries and it is precisely why the backstop cannot be stomached by the Conservatives.0 -
SeaBreezes wrote: »Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4
How does avoiding the backstop maintain UK/ROI trade?0 -
And until they have some sort of trade deal agreed with the US (or whoever), the tariffs and NTBs will be the same for all food imports. So then it's just a balance of base price, shipping cost and convenience. Minimum transit time from the US (for example) is ten days by ship.CelticRambler wrote: »And this is one of the reasons why Ireland's economy will not be destroyed. For all that Brexiters might drool at the thought of importing cheap beef and chicken from America in the future, their constituents will really want to keep eating in the present. Irish (and continental) supermarkets and food processors have had the luxury of being able to look for new suppliers from any one of 26 other countries; British customers haven't had that luxury, so in the short term at least, they'll have no choice but to keep using their existing sources, whatever the price.0 -
How bizarre is this?Smoke bombs were thrown and riot police deployed in Glasgow after a march in favour of Irish unity sparked major clashes.
Supporters of the procession were attacked as hundreds of loyalist counter-demonstrators attempted to block their route through the city’s Govan Road area on Friday evening
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/glasgow-riots-irish-unity-march-counter-demonstrators-govan-road-a9086306.html0 -
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From another thread
Sajid Javid confronts Boris Johnson after sacking of adviser: Media adviser to chancellor of exchequer escorted by police from Downing St
A furious Sajid Javid confronted Boris Johnson on Friday and demanded an explanation of why his media adviser was sacked without his knowledge, amid claims that a “culture of fear” has taken hold within the British government.
Sonia Khan, Mr Javid’s media adviser, was escorted from No 10 by an armed police officer after a meeting with Mr Johnson’s top strategist, Dominic Cummings, in which she was accused of being dishonest about her contact with the former chancellor Philip Hammond and one of his ex-advisers, who have been trying to block a no-deal Brexit.
Ms Khan is the second adviser working for Mr Javid, the chancellor of the exchequer, to be sacked by No 10. She is also the fourth young woman in a month to be axed from the prime minister’s network of advisers and senior staffers.
Mr Javid demanded the meeting in support of his adviser and it is said he will not let the matter drop. But there are increasing suggestions that he is becoming isolated from the core of the Johnson regime.
Mr Javid’s first major speech on the economy was cancelled 24 hours before he had been due to deliver it in Birmingham this week. Downing Street, rather than the Treasury, announced a proposed cut to fuel duty that had been briefed to the Sunday papers.
Mr Javid is now without a media adviser before next week’s spending review, one of the biggest announcements of the financial year, where he will lay out details of a £14 billion (€15.5 billion) allocation for schools over three years and new police funding.
Shortly after news broke of Ms Khan being marched from No 10, it was speculated that the reason for her departure was the leaking of the government’s no-deal Brexit preparation strategy, Operation Yellowhammer. Downing Street later clarified that she was not the source.
Acrimony
Ms Khan was said to have been deeply shaken by her sacking and her police escort as she left No 10. The acrimony over her very public sacking – the result of Mr Cummings’s zero-tolerance approach to alleged leaks from special advisers – will be seen by Mr Johnson’s critics as an echo of the government’s decision to drive through the prorogation of parliament this week and indicative of the extent of Mr Cummings’s expanding role.
Both Mr Cummings’s approach to running Downing Street and the perception that Mr Johnson is trying to limit debate on Brexit have led to criticism of a governing style devoid of consultation. And it is understood that even at the top of government there is growing concern about the potential reputational damage being done by the recent clearout of female advisers.
Three other women in senior advisory, policy and organisational roles in the Conservative party have left since Mr Johnson became prime minister.
A former Whitehall staffer who worked under Theresa May’s administration said: “There is a now a climate of fear operating in government that Dominic Cummings is trying to create. The fact they had her marched out the front door by a police officer – they clearly wanted to make an example of her. I think he knows that she’s absolutely not guilty of what she is supposed to be guilty of.
“There are now Spads [special advisers] who cross the road not to be seen with me. People are genuinely afraid to speak to me. That’s how bad this culture of fear has got.”
A No 10 spokesman said: “We don’t comment on individual staffing and personnel matters.”
A fiery exchange between Mr Cummings and Ms Khan is understood to have revolved around whether she had contact with a former Hammond staff member. It is understood Ms Khan was asked to hand over her work phone, and also presented her personal phone to Mr Cummings.
Downing Street made clear that Ms Khan was not being blamed for the leak of documents on no-deal planning. A senior government source said: “Sonia Khan was not responsible for the Yellowhammer leak.”
‘You’re fired’
Whitehall sources confirmed that the reason Ms Khan was dismissed on the spot was because she had been in contact with people working with a group of Conservative politicians trying to block a no-deal Brexit, and over the claim that she had lied about her contact with them.
But a source close to her said: “She was asked about her contact with her former colleague, she said she had seen the person socially quite recently in Westminster – hardly some discreet part of London. She was open about it and handed over both her phones. There’s no law about speaking to former colleagues.
“He then said ‘you’re fired’. Sonia is a dyed-in-the-wool Brexiteer, a passionate leaver – she was loyally behind the view of the government and delivery of Brexit.”
It emerged that there were no witnesses to her sacking by Mr Cummings, who spoke to her in an office in Downing Street close to the prime minister’s. A former Whitehall source said: “She wasn’t offered to take anybody with her and she wasn’t told what the meeting was about.”
A senior ex-civil servant said they would have expected a representative from Whitehall or Downing Street human resources to be present if the meeting was to involve a special adviser’s dismissal.
Sources close to the government have described an emerging pattern of “opaque and shocking” dismissals, not always involving a clear explanation of what the person is said to have done wrong. One Tory insider said the way some former staffers had been treated by No 10 was “horrific”.
Critics
A former Whitehall staffer said: “This has been about brand identity, and the whole “we are in charge” thing. I can’t see there’s anything strategic or tactical to be gained by the big boys at No 10 for treating someone this way.”
The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, was among the critics of how Mr Cummings had effectively undermined the chancellor and the Treasury. He tweeted: “Would be better if Dominic Cummings came along next week to present the spending review as he’s obviously in charge of the Treasury as well as No 10.
“If you can’t speak without his permission and can’t even decide your own staffing, you’re hardly the chancellor.” – Guardian0 -
We take it as normal that UK government officials have said we need to know our place, if we dont like it we can lump it, they should cut off our food supply if we dont fall in line, but imagine another western European country saying that about a neighbour; Germany about Denmark, France about Belgium, or perhaps Russia about Finland or any other eastern EU member in matters that materially impact that member. Its absolutely not in anyway normal or acceptable. If the EU was even half-heartedly suggesting blockading food from entering Switzerland over a disagreement to force them to fall in line, I would feel very worried and very angry, however as mentioned, this attitude from GB to Ireland is nearly just seen as normal. It reflects the relationship that previously existed for centuries and it is precisely why the backstop cannot be stomached by the Conservatives.
Er, Patel didn't exactly that they'd cut off Ireland's food supply. I'm not trying to say her exact words were all rosy, but these kinds of chinese whispers really don't help matters. To quote her,
"This paper appears to show the government were well aware Ireland will face significant issues in a no-deal scenario. Why hasn't this been pressed home during the negotiations? There is still time to go back to Brussels and get a better deal."
Was she saying the UK would 'cut-off' Ireland, or that it would be prudent to remind the EU that a byproduct of no-deal is that the sudden tariffs and barriers introduced disrupts Ireland's supply chains?0 -
That may well be a factor. But I think the main driver is the fact that the revised backstop keeps the UK from making trade deals "unless and until..." and that presupposes that eventually they will stay aligned with the EU. And that does not sit well with the ERG disaster capitalist types and other fellow travellers who see personal enrichment as their ultimate goal. All sorts of strange bedfellows are supporting brexit on both sides of the Atlantic, like John Bolton for example.Im firmly of the opinion that the reason the backstop is so impossible to stomach for the UK government, and especial the Conservative Party and Conservative voters is because its the first time in history that Ireland has made its concerns known and asserted its right not to be abused on trodden over by Great Britain.0 -
There were some amusing posts by Dmitry Grozoubinski on vague “instructions” - such as the Brexit referendumWhat about JRM's comments that prorogation is just, 'normal procedure'? If it's such an egregious move, even the smooth-talking Mogg shouldn't be able to avoid being taken well to task on it by any half-competent interviewer. Or is it a case of 'malicious compliance'?
Calling the move undemocratic - that may well be true, but the trouble is that it gets us nowhere. The people calling it undemocratic are in turn called undemocratic for trying to block Brexit. The word has become a grenade tossed back and forth between the trenches. Both sides are sure they have the moral high ground, so that it looks like we're in a political M.C. Escher drawing.
And the architects of Brexit love it. They know it's paralysing, and all they need now is inertia to get to their goal. Just keep on feeding the fire, keep on digging that line of division, and it's game over.
https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/11673213182549934080 -
Its absolutely not in anyway normal or acceptable. If the EU was even half-heartedly suggesting blockading food from entering Switzerland over a disagreement to force them to fall in line, I would feel very worried and very angry, however as mentioned, this attitude from GB to Ireland is nearly just seen as normal. It reflects the relationship that previously existed for centuries and it is precisely why the backstop cannot be stomached by the Conservatives.
Very true. The rhetoric is what you'd expect of good friendly neighbours like Russia and Finland for example!
There's been a knock-back of political relations with the UK closer to what they were pre 1990s and Good Friday Agreement because of Brexit. (Maybe even worse than that??)
If "no deal" occurs and the fall out is really very bad, people always look for an external whipping boy at such times. Ireland (unlike the more remote EU institutions themselves or likes of France and Germany) is small enough to have no fear of + has historically served that purpose for the UK. It could get very very nasty IMO.but imagine another western European country saying that about a neighbour; Germany about Denmark, France about Belgium, or perhaps Russia about Finland or any other eastern EU member in matters that materially impact that member
Didn't notice this on first reading. As above you actually would expect it of Russia under Putin (towards Finland or their other unlucky neighbours); one would think that might give the Brexiters pause but no unfortunately.0 -
Terms such as "hostage" "know your place" "[throw Ireland under a bus because] we are a much more important country" however have been used.Er, Patel didn't exactly that they'd cut off Ireland's food supply. I'm not trying to say her exact words were all rosy, but these kinds of chinese whispers really don't help matters. To quote her,
"This paper appears to show the government were well aware Ireland will face significant issues in a no-deal scenario. Why hasn't this been pressed home during the negotiations? There is still time to go back to Brussels and get a better deal."
Was she saying the UK would 'cut-off' Ireland, or that it would be prudent to remind the EU that a byproduct of no-deal is that the sudden tariffs and barriers introduced disrupts Ireland's supply chains?0 -
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Im firmly of the opinion that the reason the backstop is so impossible to stomach for the UK government, and especial the Conservative Party and Conservative voters is because its the first time in history that Ireland has made its concerns known and asserted its right not to be abused on trodden over by Great Britain.
Brexit is forcing a lot of self-reflection regards the UKs eminence and power in the world today based on how they in fact do not hold all of the cards in discussions with the EU and have not got the easiest trade deal ever, the German car manufacturers not only arent putting pressure on for an agreement, but have made it clear the single market is more important and want that protected. This is difficult enough for that type of person, however the notion that Ireland and the Irish will be getting a legal guarantee (because thats all the backstop is, a legal guarantee the UK government will actually do what it claims its 100% committed to doing anyway) is beyond comprehension.
We take it as normal that UK government officials have said we need to know our place, if we dont like it we can lump it, they should cut off our food supply if we dont fall in line, but imagine another western European country saying that about a neighbour; Germany about Denmark, France about Belgium, or perhaps Russia about Finland or any other eastern EU member in matters that materially impact that member. Its absolutely not in anyway normal or acceptable. If the EU was even half-heartedly suggesting blockading food from entering Switzerland over a disagreement to force them to fall in line, I would feel very worried and very angry, however as mentioned, this attitude from GB to Ireland is nearly just seen as normal. It reflects the relationship that previously existed for centuries and it is precisely why the backstop cannot be stomached by the Conservatives.
To be fair, Russia does treat its neighbours like that. I remember Putin saying that his army could be in Kiev in two days if the Ukranians did not like the anexation of Crimea.0 -
listermint wrote: »Your business will fall flat on its arse. The only person to blame in all this will be you.
You really don't understand the nature of small businesses do you? The reality is always that you're only ever as good as your last customer. Small businesses are used to adapting and weaving with the punches. So thank you very much, we won't fall flat on our arses because of Brexit.Look to be honest the simple truth is that while it's more convenient and maybe more comfortable dealing with distrubuters and such in the UK ...............
If they're intent on wrecking themselves we're not dependent on them we have a market of 26 other countries to draw help on if we need them, we're resourceful and can work around the problems but we don't have to be dragged down by Britain if they implode in their crowning moment of idiocy.
I agree with the most of what you say but an indisputable fact of life and history is that it is far more convenient for us to deal with UK suppliers and distributors where the same range of services is not available here. I dunno but I suspect that many smaller Irish businesses will seek ways to try and continue those relationships.
The nature of this thread is more about Brit bashing, having a laugh at their stupidity and the machinations of their leaders. That's fine - nothing wrong with a bit of Brit bashing, they deserve it as often as not. But remember there'll be no free lunch for most of us here. Bound to be winners and losers, but I fully expect the public to be picking up the tab, just as always.0 -
They're doing this to themselves. By all means, continue your business relationships if they work, but if you think about it, they should also be making moves to make their cross-territory business relationships work too. Some already have, by setting up branches here or elsewhere in the EU, but it shouldn't all be about what we do. It's not our job to make their lives easier if they can't be bothered to put in some effort themselves.I agree with the most of what you say but an indisputable fact of life and history is that it is far more convenient for us to deal with UK suppliers and distributors where the same range of services is not available here. I dunno but I suspect that many smaller Irish businesses will seek ways to try and continue those relationships.
The nature of this thread is more about Brit bashing, having a laugh at their stupidity and the machinations of their leaders. That's fine - nothing wrong with a bit of Brit bashing, they deserve it as often as not. But remember there'll be no free lunch for most of us here. Bound to be winners and losers, but I fully expect the public to be picking up the tab, just as always.0 -
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You really don't understand the nature of small businesses do you? The reality is always that you're only ever as good as your last customer. Small businesses are used to adapting and weaving with the punches. So thank you very much, we won't fall flat on our arses because of Brexit.
I agree with the most of what you say but an indisputable fact of life and history is that it is far more convenient for us to deal with UK suppliers and distributors where the same range of services is not available here. I dunno but I suspect that many smaller Irish businesses will seek ways to try and continue those relationships.
The nature of this thread is more about Brit bashing, having a laugh at their stupidity and the machinations of their leaders. That's fine - nothing wrong with a bit of Brit bashing, they deserve it as often as not. But remember there'll be no free lunch for most of us here. Bound to be winners and losers, but I fully expect the public to be picking up the tab, just as always.
Brexiteer bashing - they are not the totality of the UK and may well be a minority at this stage (even though they control the government and the media).
People in Ireland have no issue at all with the likes of Grieve, Soubry, Swinson, Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart, Hammond etc and the ordinary members of the public who are not on the far right train.0 -
BarryD2 wrote:The nature of this thread is more about Brit bashing, having a laugh at their stupidity and the machinations of their leaders. That's fine - nothing wrong with a bit of Brit bashing, they deserve it as often as not. But remember there'll be no free lunch for most of us here. Bound to be winners and losers, but I fully expect the public to be picking up the tab, just as always.
I have yet to meet anyone who thinks Brexit is a good idea.
All any of us can do is minimise the damage and take whatever opportunities might arise. Some will succeed, some won't. Nobody will be better off.0 -
"Know your place" was anonymous, "hostage" was Crispin Blunt:I know Theresa May said the last thing and very telling it was, too. Who said the other things?
https://twitter.com/CrispinBlunt/status/11268868308829388800 -
Was just wondering about the following: would it be possible for the UK to have a "backstop" limited to NI + "car factories" -designated as "free ports" since that has been a term used recently?
It could look more acceptable to the DUP that sections of GB were similarly subject and would it help with car manufacturing?0 -
I doubt that a NI + bits of British industry would in any way be acceptable to the EU.
And rightly so IMO!0 -
Except the very people who will benefit from Brexit, the business leaders and their financial backers who are supporting the current government and their ministers.I have yet to meet anyone who thinks Brexit is a good idea.
All any of us can do is minimise the damage and take whatever opportunities might arise. Some will succeed, some won't. Nobody will be better off.
Without their support, Brexit would have died out months ago.0 -
https://news.sky.com/story/health-secretary-matt-hancock-u-turns-on-proroguing-parliament-11798608
These people like Hancock and Javid are incredibly hypocritical.0 -
https://news.sky.com/story/health-secretary-matt-hancock-u-turns-on-proroguing-parliament-11798608
These people like Hancock and Javid are incredibly hypocritical.
None of them have any integrity.
Used to be if you were caught out on a big lie, you would resign. They are absolutely brazen in their carry on. Poor form, bad character. UK have shown time and again in the last few years that they are not to be trusted, which is a real shame for a country that once prided itself on proper order and 'the rule of law'.
There are no more concessions for them.0 -
Deleted User wrote:Except the very people who will benefit from Brexit, the business leaders and their financial backers who are supporting the current government and their ministers. Without their support, Brexit would have died out months ago.
What "business leader" is going to profit from a contracting economy, reduced access to your closest, largest market and a drop in foreign (and local) investment?
Of course a few speculators will make a killing and Joe the plumber in Bradford might get a few of the jobs that his Polish competitor was taking from him but that's the height of it.0 -
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Well Bamford (of JCB fame) seems to think he'll get something from it. He's been paying Johnson among others to keep the momentum going.What "business leader" is going to profit from a contracting economy, reduced access to your closest, largest market and a drop in foreign (and local) investment?
Of course a few speculators will make a killing and Joe the plumber in Bradford might get a few of the jobs that his Polish competitor was taking from him but that's the height of it.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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