Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

fash

reslfj wrote: »

The all UK CU is a huge additional concession as such a CU agreement will give the UK waste benefits and normally comes with a large number of strings (conditions) attached - for the smaller UK normally very expensive 'strings'.

Here the CU is given by the EU for free.

Lars

Sure - the "Nissan Sunderland factory free port" strings/quid pro quo can be hidden in the details somewhere - plus in any case, it is a smaller concession than the entire GB concession.

Enzokk

I am not even going to try to be funny and make a quip about how Brexit was about taking back control for parliament, but Gove didn't commit to abiding by legislation if it was passed by said parliament.

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1168099431373246467?s=20

That is dangerous, how can a government say they will not abide by the rules of their own parliament?

devnull

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not even going to try to be funny and make a quip about how Brexit was about taking back control for parliament, but Gove didn't commit to abiding by legislation if it was passed by said parliament.

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1168099431373246467?s=20

That is dangerous, how can a government say they will not abide by the rules of their own parliament?

Because honestly, it's no longer a government, it's a dictatorship.

They're essentially saying it doesn't matter if Parliament pass a law to stop us. We'll just ignore it. They are not the law. We are the law and what we say goes and nobody can stop us.

Then this morning I see virals on Facebook claiming the the left are acting like Nazi dictators. People sharing it attended such great universities as the university of life and clearly didn't pay much attention during history class.

People talk about all the dictators in these many war torn countries abroad and how they need to be overthrown, if things carry on the way they are this could be the UK in the future.

The problem is that lessons of history are often forgotten, when something happened so long ago and anyone who was alive during it is not anymore or there are not many of them, people forget what it was like and make the same mistakes.

That's why things go in cycles and we're heading through people once again needing to be taught some serious and punishing lessons in order to break this one.

devnull

Latest tactic being rumoured is that the Lords are now being briefed on filibusting tactics.

Wouldn't surprise me if they are going to be issued with long long speeches by number 10.

J Mysterio

devnull wrote: »

Latest tactic being rumoured is that the Lords are now being briefed on filibusting tactics.

Wouldn't surprise me if they are going to be issued with long long speeches by number 10.

This seems to be swirling around at the moment. Theyve all lost their bloody minds.

https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1168069088201121792

CelticRambler

For no good reason, I watched a series of interviews this morning on Sophie Ridge (Sky). Seeing/hearing this parade of characters, two things struck me.

Firstly, the wimpiness of the interviewer (not Sophie Ridge herself), who timidly put a question to the politician, let them spout any old nonsense as a reply, then moved on to the next question on his list. At this stage in the game, anyone conducting an interview of this kind should be able to anticipate the replies they're going to get, and be able to challenge those out-of-the-box answers. With only 60 days to go, surely any journalist worth their place in the network should be trying to draw as much blood from every politician they can get their hands on? Maybe I've spent too long listening to French radio, where, when they've got a politician on the ropes, the interviewer will keep up the interogation, even if that means bulldozing their way through the weather, the pips and the usual on-the-hour news headlines.

And secondly, it was really disturbing to see that for most of these people, Brexit is actually just another excuse to engage in bashing "the opposition". None of them acknowledge that two-party politics in Britain is finished, and the suggestion that (a no-deal) Brexit will destroy the economy - and possibly the Kingdom - is little more than a "yes, but ... " irrelevance. When you compare this whirlpool of internecine feuding with the abnormally coherent united front of FG/FF/etc in Ireland, and the EU-27 as a whole, you'd have to wonder if we've underestimated the havoc the British are capable of, and prepared to, inflict on their country post Brexit. :eek:

Valhallapt

prawnsambo wrote: »

Here's an interesting side effect of "The Treaties will cease to apply...". I wonder how many other little nuggets like this are hidden in the treaties.

I’ve posted about this a few times previously. Many maybe a majority of Irish retailers are under / not prepared for a no deal. I know there is much enhanced shipping options to the continent, but from what I can see, got nothing to back it up, very few retailers have product substitution options in place. There will be gaps on the shelves in most Irish supermarkets come day one no deal. The government need to step in and forcefully tell them to prepare.

briany

It'll be the easiest deal in history
It's a million to one shot we won't get a deal
I'm optimistic about a deal
Maybe we won't get a deal
We probably won't get a deal
There's a good chance of no-deal
Prepare for no-deal

I said all along that we wouldn't get a deal

I voted for no-deal

is_that_so

Valhallapt wrote: »

I’ve posted about this a few times previously. Many maybe a majority of Irish retailers are under / not prepared for a no deal. I know there is much enhanced shipping options to the continent, but from what I can see, got nothing to back it up, very few retailers have product substitution options in place. There will be gaps on the shelves in most Irish supermarkets come day one no deal. The government need to step in and forcefully tell them to prepare.

I agree they should be preparing but what exactly are they preparing for? It's a massive unknown with an equally unknown cost. Most small businesses IMO would not be able to address multiple scenarios.

is_that_so

briany wrote: »

It'll be the easiest deal in history
It's a million to one shot we won't get a deal
I'm optimistic about a deal
Maybe we won't get a deal
We probably won't get a deal
There's a good chance of no-deal
Prepare for no-deal

I said all along that we wouldn't get a deal

I voted for no-deal

How? The referendum question was on exiting the EU. You get no say in the deal no matter how many times you click your heels together.

CelticRambler

briany wrote: »

I said all along that we wouldn't get a deal

I voted for no-deal

IDS on Sky had a version of this: Everyone knew they were voting for no-deal, because David Cameron said that if we voted to leave, we'd be out in the cold and our economy would be destroyed, but people still voted to leave.

Uhhh, didn't you describe that as "Project Fear" and tell people not to believe in such nonsensical doom and gloom?

briany

is_that_so wrote: »

How? The referendum question was on exiting the EU. You get no say in the deal no matter how many times you click your heels together.

Oh, they discussed all that before the referendum, apparently. Didn't bother writing it down on the referendum ballot, mind you. Complexities like "EFTA isn't part of the EU" probably went over the head of your average Brexit voter.

is_that_so

briany wrote: »

Oh, they discussed all that before the referendum, apparently. Didn't bother writing it down on the referendum ballot, mind you. Complexities like "EFTA isn't part of the EU" probably went over the head of your average Brexit voter.

That's not how referenda work. People come up with all sorts of nonsense before them. If it's not on the paper then it's not part of the question you voted on. All you voted for was to leave.

briany

is_that_so wrote: »

That's not how referenda work. People come with all sorts of nonsense before them. If it's not on the paper then it's not part of the question you voted on. All you voted for was to leave.

Er, that's my point...

is_that_so

briany wrote: »

Er, that's my point...

Not in what you've posted.

briany

is_that_so wrote: »

Not in what you've posted.

My posts #3740 and #3744 were making fun of what Brexiteers are saying. That might be causing confusion if you thought I was in earnest.

My point being the Brexiteers retain a cocksure attitude to what the Brexit vote was about, even as their rhetoric about a deal visibly shifts. This is despite the fact that an EFTA deal would fulfil the referendum question to the letter, and it would do so in a way which provides a soft landing for the British economy, unlike no-deal. But Brexiteers reject that idea, despite the Vote Leave leaflet claiming that the UK could be part of this very bloc. Next thing you know, Brexiteers will be claiming none of them read the thing.

Valhallapt

is_that_so wrote: »

I agree they should be preparing but what exactly are they preparing for? It's a massive unknown with an equally unknown cost. Most small businesses IMO would not be able to address multiple scenarios.

Well they start by identifying the SKUs that are made in UK and those that only have an office in the UK. Most of these will have reduced availability on D1ND, and many of them will simply be illegal to sell, I.e. they will have to be removed from shelves.

Irish retailers are disproportionately relying on UK supply chains, big retailers may have 10k+ SKUs effected, it would be prudent to reduce this exposure now, well in advance. E.g. own brand nappies made by a small company in UK, they could have been switched to a French company by now, so there is no disruption on D1ND

If they spent the last few months preparing properly the could have reduced their risks from 10k SKUs to 5K SKUs, without the customer even realising

I believe Aldi / Lidl have done this already, but all others look badly exposed

Strazdas

is_that_so wrote: »

That's not how referenda work. People come up with all sorts of nonsense before them. If it's not on the paper then it's not part of the question you voted on. All you voted for was to leave.

Legally, the ballot paper was meaningless and may as well have been written by a six year old in crayon.

The ballot paper didn't even specify what 'the European Union' was. Was it the 28 member political union? Did it include membership of the Single Market or Customs Union?

Even the right wing press in autumn 2016 were speculating that Britain might apply for SMCU membership, meaning nobody actually knows what the UK voted to leave in any definitive sense.

J Mysterio

Sorry to post without significant comment, but these tweets speak for themselves really.

https://twitter.com/LordRRoberts/status/1168074157592121344

Britain just seems like a time bomb now and it will go off sooner or later. I expect signifcant riots, nationwide. Maybe protests and then counter protests. Little 'vigilante' groups roaming the streets.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

Sorry to post without significant comment, but these tweets speak for themselves really.

https://twitter.com/LordRRoberts/status/1168074157592121344

Britain just seems like a time bomb now and it will go off sooner or later. I expect signifcant riots, nationwide. Maybe protests and then counter protests. Little 'vigilante' groups roaming the streets.

Yep, the more I see British Eurosceptics in action, the more I realise they were a bunch of rotters all along. Too many bad people with bad motives and there was never anything 'noble' about the way they wanted to get away from Europe.

briany

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Another day another another step on the path to full blown fascism. Every day it's getting harder and harder for Brexiters to spin and hide what they truly are.

I'm not making any comment on whether Brexiteers are fascists or not, but the term is definitely used an awful lot, and that allows its easy dismissal as a buzzword. The accusation therefore becomes easy to bat away.

J Mysterio

briany wrote: »

I'm not making any comment on whether Brexiteers are fascists or not, but the term is definitely used an awful lot, and that allows its easy dismissal as a buzzword. The accusation therefore becomes easy to bat away.

Previously it was the Brexiteers (and also 'do not identify as Brexiteer No Voters') who used the word. They claimed the Remainers (and...) were fascists for trying to thwart the 'will of the people' as expressed by the 'democratic vote'.

Remainers (read 'sensible people') - in my view - did not really begin to use that sort of extreme language (fascist, dictator etc.) until more recently. But when the government is actually shutting down Parliament and threatening to literally ignore it altogether, it is right that we use this language. It is not then just descriptive and metaphorical, but it is literally exactly as described and per definition.

The UK now has an extreme, far right, fascistic party in government which is literally lying constantly and acting in an authoritarian manner. It's shocking and frightening really.

Is there time for them to go with and get passed the border on the sea WA - saving the country?

Or, will they go full blown mental and destroy the UK in a kamikaze No Deal crashout?

So little time left and society can't handle such intense pressure.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

Previously it was the Brexiteers (and also 'do not identify as Brexiteer No Voters') who used the word. They claimed the Remainers (and...) were fascists for trying to thwart the 'will of the people' as expressed by the 'democratic vote'.

Remainers (read 'sensible people') - in my view - did not really begin to use that sort of extreme language (fascist, dictator etc.) until more recently. But when the government is actually shutting down Parliament and threatening to literally ignore it altogether, it is right that we use this language. It is not then just descriptive and metaphorical, but it is literally exactly as described and per definition.

The UK now has an extreme, far right, fascistic party in government which is literally lying constantly and acting in an authoritarian manner. It's shocking and frightening really.

Is there time for them to go with and get passed the border on the sea WA - saving the country?

Or, will they go full blown mental and destroy the UK in a kamikaze No Deal crashout?

So little time left and society can't handle such intense pressure.

A far right section of the public too - the No Deal / pro-Johnson guys and the numerous loons ranting on Twitter.

Fortunately though, they seem to be no higher than 20-25% of the population. If it was over 50%, they'd be really up the creek and have no future.

CelticRambler

Valhallapt wrote: »

Well they start by identifying the SKUs that are made in UK and those that only have an office in the UK. Most of these will have reduced availability on D1ND, and many of them will simply be illegal to sell, I.e. they will have to be removed from shelves.

Not exactly. This is where the EU can unilaterally exercise its discretion, allowing retailers to continue to sell items that were imported and offered for sale in accordance with EU rules in force at the time, i.e. right up until 23:59 on 31st Oct, and this is a perfectly good, common-sense approach that protects EU business.

The same product imported after Brexit-day will be subject to the new (no-deal) rules, and that's where some retailers might pay a price for their complacency, but I very much doubt there will be hordes of EU inspectors traipsing around every warehouse, supermarket and pound-shop in 27 member states trying to identify goods that were imported legally weeks or months beforehand.

Seth Brundle

I posted this in the Brexit thread in the CA forum just now...

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Seemingly Andrew "the British are entitled to an Irish passport" Bridgen was talking to Marian Finucane about our shared history and even referred to Cromwell.
No audio available yet.

Igotadose

Strazdas wrote: »

A far right section of the public too - the No Deal / pro-Johnson guys and the numerous loons ranting on Twitter.

Fortunately though, they seem to be no higher than 20-25% of the population. If it was over 50%, they'd be really up the creek and have no future.

Hitler got 33% of the vote (I think) in 1933. Johnson wasn't voted on directly at all.

Johnson's not Hitler - not that smart. Nor is what's happening in the UK this week what happened in Germany then. But there are parallels.

jochenstacker

Apologies if this has been posted already, this is an extremely fast moving thread.
This commentator seems to think that, even if BoJo has parliament hamstrung, the EU could simply remove the deadline, pulling the rug from under Johnson's feet.
I would soil myself laughing if they did that.
I generally like his channel and it goes to prove not all Brits have lost their marbles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfjgd7FTwpY

edit, this is being hailed as a major victory by both sides, funnily enough. Remainers are saying the EU is pulling the rug from under Johnson, Brexiteers are saying this is the EU caving in and getting ready to meet all their demands in the face of a no deal brexit.

ath262

from Sunday Telegraph, Suella Braverman of the 'Alternative Arrangements Commission' aka the magical Unicorn Factory, is still pushing ideas for replacing the backstop already rejected during the original negotiations with the EU. Including risking our single market status with some sort of 'all-island regulatory area'

20silkcut

Strazdas wrote: »

A far right section of the public too - the No Deal / pro-Johnson guys and the numerous loons ranting on Twitter.

Fortunately though, they seem to be no higher than 20-25% of the population. If it was over 50%, they'd be really up the creek and have no future.

But the polls consistently show it nearer to 40% of the population. Maybe there is something I’m misunderstanding.

Robert McGrath

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not even going to try to be funny and make a quip about how Brexit was about taking back control for parliament, but Gove didn't commit to abiding by legislation if it was passed by said parliament.

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1168099431373246467?s=20

That is dangerous, how can a government say they will not abide by the rules of their own parliament?

Every single interview with a government minister should now lead with this question. This cannot be ignored