Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali

prawnsambo wrote: »

Couldn't get more brexity than a man standing for an election that he's tried to avoid and looking for a majority to implement the 'will of the people' and thwart the remoaners.

Until he actually delivers, there will always be a more brexity candidate - the one with Brexit Party beside their name.

Who will point out that Boris is a big fat liar who caused this election by deliberately provoking his rebels into stopping Brexit, something that will not happen if you elect the Brexit Party.

At least, that's what I would say if I was Zara ffoulkes Cholmondley Rees-Mogg or whoever.

trellheim

Expect this thread to get moving even faster tonight and tomorrow , we will look back on today as a period of calm restraint **

** relatively speaking of course

prawnsambo

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Until he actually delivers, there will always be a more brexity candidate - the one with Brexit Party beside their name.

Who will point out that Boris is a big fat liar who caused this election by deliberately provoking his rebels into stopping Brexit, something that will not happen if you elect the Brexit Party.

At least, that's what I would say if I was Zara ffoulkes Cholmondley Rees-Mogg or whoever.

But there still is that lingering thing in Westminster elections that BP/UKIP aren't seen as a 'serious' Westminster party. Grand for locals and Europeans, but when it comes to the nitty-gritty of 'real' politics, it's back to the old staples. That might change, hell, anything can happen now that we're through the looking glass, but Johnson has been polishing his brexity credentials from the word go, for just this purpose imo.

trellheim

Me again

NEW

Cabinet ministers to be told draft legal text on Northern Ireland plan has been drawn up and ready to be introduced

BUT

��A source says draft legal text is just the existing protocol with the relevant articles on the backstop crossed out - not exactly a worked up plan��

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1168543706472943616

lawred2

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Unfortunately as always, FPTP would show its worthlessness, Alliance would need a far greater surge to actually gain any sizable number of seats.

now THAT'S undemocratic

farmchoice

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Until he actually delivers, there will always be a more brexity candidate - the one with Brexit Party beside their name.

Who will point out that Boris is a big fat liar who caused this election by deliberately provoking his rebels into stopping Brexit, something that will not happen if you elect the Brexit Party.

At least, that's what I would say if I was Zara ffoulkes Cholmondley Rees-Mogg or whoever.

the thing is all those brexit party votes or the vast majority of them are died in the wool tories. people who have voted tory all there lives and are desperatly looking for a reason to go back to being tories. Boris can be that reason as long as he can keep up the brexit hard man act and make sure he has not let himself get caught preforming an un-brexit act.
therefore a pre 31 October election is risky for sure but perhaps not as risky as as being forced into a back down by parliament or crashing out and facing the inevitable consequences of that.

Zubeneschamali

Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »

I think it’s game over. There will be an election (Corbyn won’t be able to help himself) and there will be a Tory landslide.

Thoughts like that were the reason May called the last election and blew her majority.

No reason to suppose Boris will do any better after his anti-Constitution shenanigans, and the prospect of the Brexit Party splitting the vote and letting more remainers in.

People say Farage won't do that because it would stop Brexit, but if Brexit ever actually happens, Farage is out of a job. I think he would rather Brexit fails and he is leader of the Brexit Party forever, especially when he can achieve this simply by fighting the election, what could be more democratic?

Zubeneschamali

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I prefer to stick to what is actually happening at present.

Like the Leader of the Opposition promising to block No Deal and run a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option?

Happened today, in case you missed it.

A Dub in Glasgo

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

FFS.



All parties but the Lib Dems accepted the Referendum Result

The SNP have called the referendum and the result illegitimate from day one (35 votes in the HoC)

kuro68k

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

All parties but the Lib Dems accepted the Referendum Result. Jeremy Corbyn, lately hero of remainers, said the result needed to be respected.

The referendum where the winning side's manifesto said that they would negotiate a deal BEFORE triggering Article 50?

Anyway, there has been a GE since then. Labour stood on a platform of getting the "exact same benefits" as membership, and leaving with a deal. Given that neither of those is looking very likely now it's completely keeping with respecting the two previous votes to oppose a no-deal crash and second referendum on the available options (cancel, May's deal or no-deal).

Bit cynical

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

People say Farage won't do that because it would stop Brexit, but if Brexit ever actually happens, Farage is out of a job. I think he would rather Brexit fails and he is leader of the Brexit Party forever, especially when he can achieve this simply by fighting the election, what could be more democratic?

I don't think Farage minds losing his job if his version of Brexit is achieved. He can write his memoirs or run a pub or whatever. He probably doesn't want to lose his job without achieving Brexit however.

megatron989

Does it not bother anyone in the leave side (or here) that the parties are happy to accept the ref result, even though it's blatantly obvious to the whole world that they were lied to over and over???
That's not normal. We'd riot here. In fact, in very democratic fashion we've revoted on referendum in the past when it was seen that people didn't understand the first time. We didn't vote wrong, we were misled or misguided by bad information.
What's happening in the UK right now is shocking, it's hard to believe that a population could be so easily led, literally the dogs licking at their masters ankles.
Madness.

ToBeFrank123

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Like the Leader of the Opposition promising to block No Deal and run a 2nd referendum with Remain as an option?

Happened today, in case you missed it.

He had plenty of chances before to block No Deal like voting for the WA and backstop. He missed those chances. And now when it looks to be too late he's in favour of blocking No Deal.

He's coming across as a spoofer, in favour or against things, when there's no danger of him having to follow through. There isn't a hope of any of those things.

There was momentum towards a neutral caretaker Prime Minister to block No Deal but he got in the way of that too by insisting he'd be that Prime Minister. There was never a hope of that being accepted.

Bit cynical

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Unfortunately as always, FPTP would show its worthlessness, Alliance would need a far greater surge to actually gain any sizable number of seats.

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

SeaBreezes

Sorry if this question is incredibly dense, but how is it possible to hold an election
In 6 weeks but not a referdum on the actual issue?

prawnsambo

Bit cynical wrote: »

I don't think Farage minds losing his job if his version of Brexit is achieved. He can write his memoirs or run a pub or whatever. He probably doesn't want to lose his job without achieving Brexit however.

This isn't some ideological crusade for Farage. That man has skin in the game of some sort or other. Far too many dodgy friends and acquaintances on the other side of the Atlantic, never mind in Putinland. Even popped into the Ecuadorian embassy on occasion iirc. And of course him being financed by Arron Banks. Might have started off as an ideology, but I doubt it.

For Forks Sake

Bit cynical wrote: »

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

Of course he has, what is it - five times- he's run for Westminster unsuccessfully at this stage?

Zubeneschamali

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

He had plenty of chances before to block No Deal like voting for the WA and backstop. He missed those chances. And now when it looks to be too late he's in favour of blocking No Deal.

So he had plenty of chances to avoid No Deal by backing Tory policy, I see.

Perhaps somewhat in conflict with his job as leader of the Labour Party, charged with delivering Labour Party policy, generally not completely in synch with Tory policy on every detail.

farmchoice

Bit cynical wrote: »

If Johnson needed support of the Brexit party, a condition would probably be reform of the FPTP electoral system as Farage has always been a critic of it.

i am convinced that johnson or no other senior tory will ever deal with farage and his various parties. the torys for all their shortcomings are one of the worlds oldest and most successful political parties. they are an elephant and farage is a flea.

to get into bed with the likes of farage and tice and arron banks would be so far beneath them as to be unthinkable. they dont say it but id say they would sooner see corbyn in power than share it with the Headers in the brexit party.

prawnsambo

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Sorry if this question is incredibly dense, but how is it possible to hold an election
In 6 weeks but not a referdum on the actual issue?

Mostly because the machinery of elections is well-oiled and settled. Referendums are complicated because they require legislation to start with. All the legislative bits on elections are already written. And then there's the whole registration of interested parties in referendums. They aren't the same as the political parties which are well established.

Bit cynical

megatron989 wrote: »

Does it not bother anyone in the leave side (or here) that the parties are happy to accept the ref result, even though it's blatantly obvious to the whole world that they were lied to over and over???
That's not normal. We'd riot here. In fact, in very democratic fashion we've revoted on referendum in the past when it was seen that people didn't understand the first time. We didn't vote wrong, we were misled or misguided by bad information.

I think in Ireland in the case of the Nice and Lisbon treaty referendums which were rerun, the impetus to run them again came from the national leadership or above, not the grass roots.

Stop moaning ffs

They’ve just scratched out the parts about the backstop. Hilarious.

Burke’s quote comes to mind (amended to include the backstop)
It was true then and it’s true now

‘the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland(and the backstop) which is to hear no more about it.’

trellheim

yep twitter starting to heat up now.... Sam Coates getting some exclusives and being retrweted

Stop moaning ffs

That’s surprising to me

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1168548005634555904?s=21

is_that_so

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mostly because the machinery of elections is well-oiled and settled. Referendums are complicated because they require legislation to start with. All the legislative bits on elections are already written. And then there's the whole registration of interested parties in referendums. They aren't the same as the political parties which are well established.

And that's in countries who know how to run them. This is Britain we're talking about!

trellheim

Peter foster agreeing with Sam Coates -

I just asked senior source on this who is across detail. Response? ������

Apparently there is, technically a 'legal text', but it's just the old backstop "with all the important bits crossed out"...it "took about half an hour". #BrexitPeter Foster added,

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster

is_that_so

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That’s surprising to me

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1168548005634555904?s=21

This is the risk he faces. It could be good or a disaster.

ToBeFrank123

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The SNP have called the referendum and the result illegitimate from day one (35 votes in the HoC)

Source?

Bit cynical

prawnsambo wrote: »

This isn't some ideological crusade for Farage. That man has skin in the game of some sort or other. Far too many dodgy friends and acquaintances on the other side of the Atlantic, never mind in Putinland. Even popped into the Ecuadorian embassy on occasion iirc. And of course him being financed by Arron Banks. Might have started off as an ideology, but I doubt it.

But even with dodgy money and even dodgier characters involved, that doesn't mean that for Farage personally it isn't an ideological crusade.

But regardless of whether it is financial reward or ideological satisfaction, the big payout, financial or otherwise, comes when Brexit is delivered, and Farage does appear to be working towards that goal. Contrast this, say, with Corbyn who is quite happy to drag things out provided the damage falls on the Tories.

For Forks Sake

trellheim wrote: »

Peter foster agreeing with Sam Coates -





https://twitter.com/pmdfoster

One step removed from the (new) dog ate my homework at this stage.