Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

MrMusician18

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

It was bizarre that he went into a hard leave government in the first place notwithstanding that his brother is PM

Enzokk

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

Just wondering if you found the answer yet to the question of how the EU is restricting your freedom and cite those laws as well as they impact us here as well and it would be great to know what they are.

As for Brexit, this tweet sums it up really,

https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1169590695088271366?s=20

That is one of the members of the House of Lords commenting that article 50 seems to say the EU has to give the UK a deal. Problem? One of the authors of article 50 is sitting right behind her and shaking his head and laughing as she is saying this.

Is there much happening today in parliament?

Christy42

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

You vote on policy not party. Many would have campaigned on a deal. And yet here is Boris shutting down negotiations (not that May kept up much) and trying to force through no deal. The conservatives did not stand on no deal in 2017. They did not stand on reduced parlimentery sovereignty. Up until the last week or two Boris was still talking about no deal being a million to one (even as he attempted to force it through via any trick he could use to get around the democratically elected parliment).

Should Boris have to step down? He fairly well 180 degree turned on the no prorogue thing which was his policy.

If someone feels that their party has drifted too far from what they campaigned on they have a duty to leave if they wish to respect their voters. This should not cost them their job. If anything anyone not jumping ship in this case should face a by election as they are not standing what they were elected on.

BorneTobyWilde

If ''No Deal Brexit'' passes into law, is it there for good? Even with a new PM in place. Does it confirm once and for all that there can never be a 'No Deal Brexit''

Enzokk

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

Except that in Ireland the representation of independents is around 15% of the seats in the Dail, and in the UK you are lucky to see one elected in total out of 651. So while you may be correct that people do vote for their party, the system in Ireland encourages more people with independent thought and not bound to a central party, which surely is a good thing as it would encourage less entrenchment of positions, I think.

VinLieger

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

Except in Ireland theres a choice of which TD we wish to vote for within the party thanks to PR/STV.


FPTP is killing the UK, for the simple reason that no since the lat 40's have you had one government that was elected by the majority of voters and that was a coalition

Enzokk

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If ''No Deal Brexit'' passes into law, is it there for good? Even with a new PM in place. Does it confirm once and for all that there can never be a 'No Deal Brexit''

It can be repealed by a new government as you cannot be bound by the previous decisions. I guess mostly laws like this is just accepted and people move onto the next item for discussion, but seeing as this would effectively be an opposition motion you can bet it would be in the firing line for the Tories at the next election.

I guess the same as same-sex marriage or the abortion laws, they can be changed by why go through the hassle of it when most has already forgotten about them.

Zubeneschamali

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If ''No Deal Brexit'' passes into law, is it there for good? Even with a new PM in place. Does it confirm once and for all that there can never be a 'No Deal Brexit''

No. Even if they revoke A50, the Tories could get in and go No Deal later. Even if they exit with a Deal soon, the Tories could win a future election and tear up the deal.

ShooterSF

Also it obviously doesn't stop no deal? It just requires he asks for an extension, which I'm guessing the EU will want a good reason. We need to move out of limbo and get on with developing our bloc with or without the UK and I'm betting Boris is not goinv to sell any reason when he doesn't actually want one...

MrMusician18

Enzokk wrote: »

Except that in Ireland the representation of independents is around 15% of the seats in the Dail, and in the UK you are lucky to see one elected in total out of 651. So while you may be correct that people do vote for their party, the system in Ireland encourages more people with independent thought and not bound to a central party, which surely is a good thing as it would encourage less entrenchment of positions, I think.

The problem with the Irish system is that it encourages parochialism, the national interest is often secondary, particularly among backbenchers.

Forty Seven

Enzokk wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

Just wondering if you found the answer yet to the question of how the EU is restricting your freedom and cite those laws as well as they impact us here as well and it would be great to know what they are.

Mostly prison related as that would be my area of interest but many times they have overruled the government on prisoners rights. Voting for one, certain legal aid conditions for two and the nonsense around article 8 of the echr (which would be upheld in ecthr) resulting in a violent rapist being placed in a female prison.

beggars_bush

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The problem with the Irish system is that it encourages parochialism, the national interest is often secondary, particularly among backbenchers.

isn't all politics local?

I'd rather have a few politicians in our Dail who are actually concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in

Dytalus

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The problem with the Irish system is that it encourages parochialism, the national interest is often secondary, particularly among backbenchers.

To be fair, the same can be said of pretty much any election. People vote for their members of Congress based on what they get promised, or for Commons based on how much so-and-so has improved their quality of life.

It isn't a problem with the Irish system, it's one of the endemic problems with democracy. People notice what effects them directly more easily and readily.

Forty Seven

VinLieger wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

I agree, it does not change the fact that there is a large part of the UK who vote the same as their dad did. For no other reason than that.

I happen to agree with my Mp on many issues. I would vote for him except for one. He is SNP.

We don't vote by person. We vote on policy and that means we vote for the people who are likely to get elected who are closest to that policy. That means we vote by party. Independent candidates usually have no hope in changing government policy. We vote by party here. Just as most of Ireland do.

Except in Ireland theres a choice of which TD we wish to vote for within the party thanks to PR/STV.


FPTP is killing the UK, for the simple reason that no since the lat 40's have you had one government that was elected by the majority of voters and that was a coalition

I agree, fptp is rubbish but it's what we have. The last referendum in 2011 was a sham offering nothing of value.

Forty Seven

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

Jo has jumped ship as he is a remainer about to face re-election in a seat that voted leave.

It was bizarre that he went into a hard leave government in the first place notwithstanding that his brother is PM

Nepotism with a dash of cronyism. Our country probably invented it. It wouldn't surprise me if this resignation isn't just a prelude to a peerage for Jo when he is all grown up.

Forty Seven

beggars_bush wrote: »

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The problem with the Irish system is that it encourages parochialism, the national interest is often secondary, particularly among backbenchers.

isn't all politics local?

I'd rather have a few politicians in our Dail who are actually concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in

Like the ability to drive home drunk?

serfboard

beggars_bush wrote: »

I'd rather have a few politicians in our Dail who are actually concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in

Except that the problem in Ireland is that you have some TDs (Lowry, The Healy-Raes etc.) who are only concerned about their constituents and the communities they live in and couldn't care less about the national interest.

Perfect example of this is one of the regular items they do in the papers when they analyse the amount of speaking time of a Deputy in the Dail. To no-ones surprise Michael Lowry had the worst record. When the paper contacted him he said something to the effect that "I'm not here to speak in Dail, I'm here to represent my constituents".

The effect is that TDs behave like super county-councillors with little regard to the national interest, and makes one wonder if the Irish electorate know what a national election is for.

prawnsambo

Forty Seven wrote: »

Mostly prison related as that would be my area of interest but many times they have overruled the government on prisoners rights. Voting for one, certain legal aid conditions for two and the nonsense around article 8 of the echr (which would be upheld in ecthr) resulting in a violent rapist being placed in a female prison.

I'm intrigued by this. Is their case law that I can look at?

BorneTobyWilde

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland.
Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland.
It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

Nate--IRL--

Basically cut us off from Europe.


Nate

Tacitus Kilgore

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland.
Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland.
It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

That chops us out of the single market, feck that

Professor Moriarty

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland.
Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland.
It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

What about the integrity of the Single Market?

First Up

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland. Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland. It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

It will look something like your first suggestion, including checks at Irish ports on goods going to the EU.

Your second suggestion (special arrangement) is a total non-runner.

Enzokk

Forty Seven wrote: »

Mostly prison related as that would be my area of interest but many times they have overruled the government on prisoners rights. Voting for one, certain legal aid conditions for two and the nonsense around article 8 of the echr (which would be upheld in ecthr) resulting in a violent rapist being placed in a female prison.

I hoped you would be able to point to specific laws from the EU though, as some of what you mention here seems to be ECHR, which is not related to the EU. In any case there is a firm commitment that the UK will keep to the ECHR via Northern Ireland as it is in the GFA that they will incorporate the ECHR into Northern Irish laws.

It also allows that the European Court of Human Rights would be able to overrule Assembly legislation if there is inconsistency. We know how much the UK wants to ensure that all parts of the UK is treated the same so I am sure taking the whole of the UK out of the ECHR but keeping NI in it would be totally unacceptable.

As for the case of Karen White who I believe you refer to, maybe you can point me to where the ECHR was involved in the mistakes that happened there.

Sam Russell

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland.
Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland.
It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

It would be simpler to just close the ports of Belfast and Larne to imports. That would solve all the problems.

Of course you could inspect all imports into those ports but that would be the backstop. That would not be too big an imposition, would it?.

VinLieger

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

EU and Ireland should just let what ever goods that enter N.I after the UK leaves EU to move freely within Rep of Ireland, but never to leave Ireland.
Police it with spot checks. As long as it's UK companies in N.I buying in product for N.I market then what's the problem if a pack of american gum crosses into Ireland.
It's a non issue in reality. Or just give Ireland permission keep its trade with UK after UK leave. A special arrangement only for Ireland.

Completely unworkable if we want to retain access to the SM which we 100% do

An Ciarraioch

Tories would win narrow majority in latest poll,but Labour still very much in contention:

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1169589557748228096

Enzokk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Tories would win narrow majority in latest poll,but Labour still very much in contention:

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1169589557748228096

All of these polls before a manifesto has even been mentioned or any campaigning has begun really is useless. There is still a lot of time to go before an election and with Corbyn's strong showing the last 2 days in the HoC I will take any poll with a pinch of salt for the moment. You can see the tabloids are scared in that they are attacking Corbyn instead of Johnson for losing everything possible in his first 2 days in charge (all votes and majority).

gmisk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Tories would win narrow majority in latest poll,but Labour still very much in contention:

https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1169589557748228096

Northern ireland just a blank void.....what a surprise