Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

maebee

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7432741/Boris-Johnson-lost-words-taken-task-man-street-Yorkshire.html

The man on the street has more of a grip on reality than the PM

BonnieSituation

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It's always there isn't it. I lost count of the amount of Irish when the unionists are mentioned over brexit I hear "f*** them"

It's not a "f**k them". It's a "welcome to equality".

Unionists and those who are more Anglo-centric in culture will not and cannot be abandoned or mistreated in a UI. Why would they be?

Just because unionism has its own issues treating others equally doesn't mean Nationalists will. Get off your high horse there Billy.

BonnieSituation

Water John wrote: »

He is an empty vessel and its being filled by Cummings.

PMQ was shockingly poor so too was his public performance today. The Tories bought a pig in a poke.

It's fantastic isn't it?

CrabRevolution

maebee wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7432741/Boris-Johnson-lost-words-taken-task-man-street-Yorkshire.html

The man on the street has more of a grip on reality than the PM

That's weird, we were all told on the last page that that story is fake and never happened, because the Guardian reported it:

Forty Seven wrote: »

To be fair you will hardly going to get a report saying he was welcomed in Wakefield from the Guardian. The guy shouting at him has a strong Irish accent so can we really take this at face value? Wakefield voted strongly for leave. 66.3% in favour. The Guardian is incredibly biased.

Topgear on Dave

Forty Seven wrote: »

BBC go straight from a brexit discussion to a documentary about a Roma criminal gang from Poland running a slavery ring in the UK.

Which BBC are you watching?

I'm watching BBC NI and they had an "On the air" cartoon then Sharon Osbourne on "Who do you think you are".


Very very different.

Forty Seven

CrabRevolution wrote: »

That's weird, we were all told on the last page that that story is fake and never happened, because the Guardian reported it:

He was accosted by an Irishman. I never said it was fake or never happened so kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth.



I also stated that the guardian is biased. I stand by that assertation.


I hope this clears up the weirdness that has come over you.

Akrasia

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The trilemma that Ivan Rogers tried to explain to May is still there:



There's no way in hell they are going to want to stay in a Customs Union, so it's a choice between 1 and 2.

The tactic seems to be to insist they will not put up a hard border, while through their actions bringing about the very scenario that will make this an inevitability.

Johnson won't speak of divergence - he may need the DUP - or talk positively about the backstop prior to an election. The only question is whether he would be willing to discard the DUP in the event of achieving a majority in Westminster and go for divergence via the NI-only backstop.

Given we know the likes of Gove have opposed the GFA in the past, I think it's more likely they will break their promise on option 1 and bring in a hard border - while blaming it on everyone but themselves.

The vast majority of brexit voters don’t know what the customs union is, and if they did, they would probably want to stay in it.

This whole brexit nonsense is one big case of a fringe group taking a party hostage and a big chunk of their supporters succumbing to Stockholm syndrome

Water John

You may disagree with the bias of The Guardian but its reporting is of a very high standard.

Forty Seven

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Which BBC are you watching?

I'm watching BBC NI and they had an "On the air" cartoon then Sharon Osbourne on "Who do you think you are".


Very very different.

BBC scotland. It's a fly on the wall documentary about a roma gang from Poland operating a slavery ring with over 300 foreign nationals. It will have the leavers foaming at the mouth.

Forty Seven

Water John wrote: »

You may disagree with the bias of The Guardian but its reporting is of a very high standard.

It is, I often use it to quote or refer to a story. Can't pretend it is not a refuge for the left though. It is the opposite of the Mail.

Water John

You had a slavery gang run by Irish Travellers too. Does that mean the UK will want to tear up the CTA?

Forty Seven

Akrasia wrote: »

The vast majority of brexit voters don’t know what the customs union is, and if they did, they would probably want to stay in it.

This whole brexit nonsense is one big case of a fringe group taking a party hostage and a big chunk of their supporters succumbing to Stockholm syndrome

Agree with your first sentence. As for the second it is a case of the chicken and the egg. Under May we saw a rise in support for the Brexit party. The tories had no choice but to take their ground.



I'm not sure a lot of folk on here really appreciate how much of this country is fuming at the lack of progress. Wait till question time goes north....

Water John

May had a choice, reach across to Lb and go for a soft Brexit, stay in SM and CU. No one had asked or suggested leaving these.

Forty Seven

Water John wrote: »

You had a slavery gang run by Irish Travellers too. Does that mean the UK will want to tear up the CTA?

You know as well as I do that they are global now. CTA wouldn't change anything.

cryptocurrency

Water John wrote: »

May had a choice, reach across to Lb and go for a soft Brexit, stay in SM and CU. No one had asked or suggested leaving these.

EXcept the very document before the referendum sent to 9 million homes

jm08

MikeSoys wrote: »

if there is checkpoints...for the agri sector could this be done in the marts and factories?
...allot cattle to those locations where the admin ssection can process?

Don't think so. The Documentary on One had a programme about 'Benji, the Gay Bull' last Saturday. The bull was going to be slaughtered but some animal lovers tried to buy the bull to save him. The farmer couldn't sell it to them because they didn't have a herd number. I'd imagine, NI farmers could not sell into the Ireland/EU without a herd number. The bull was eventually sent to some place in the UK eventually, but prior to it going it had to go to some some place for veterinary inspection (only 2 places in the county) before it was allowed travel to the UK.

I just can't see NI animals/milk being allowed into the ROI/EU system without undergoing the same inspections/traceability measures as are in the EU. Then of course, there will be tariffs coming into the EU.

Forty Seven

Water John wrote: »

May had a choice, reach across to Lb and go for a soft Brexit, stay in SM and CU. No one had asked or suggested leaving these.

That's just not true. It was well sold to the populace.

Peregrinus

Forty Seven wrote: »

That's just not true. It was well sold to the populace.

But of course the option of staying in the Single Market and/or the CU was also well sold to the public. May could just as readily have chosen a soft Brexit as a hard, and could with equal credibility have pointed to the referendum outcome as giving her a mandate to do so.

This was very much a choice of May's. The way the referndum was set up and the campaign run, if "Leave" won the choice of Brexit strategy was always going to be made after the referendum by politicians, and the only constraint imposed by the referendumer result was that they could not choose "Remain".

Forty Seven

Peregrinus wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

That's just not true. It was well sold to the populace.

But of course the option of staying in the Single Market and/or the CU was also well sold to the public. May could just as readily have chosen a soft Brexit as a hard, and could with equal credibility have pointed to the referendum outcome as giving her a mandate to do so.

This was very much a choice of May's. The way the referndum was set up and the campaign run, if "Leave" won the choice of Brexit strategy was always going to be made after the referendum by politicians, and the only constraint imposed by the referendumer result was that they could not choose "Remain".

This referendum came about and was voted in because of immigration. There would be no support for the single market as it comes with free movement of people.

Peregrinus

Forty Seven wrote: »

This referendum came about and was voted in because of immigration. There would be no support for the single market as it comes with free movement of people.

You're assuming that voters have well-informed and consistent preferences, which is unwarranted. Voters werer told - by Nigel Farage, among others - that the "Norway solution", involving remaining in the Single Market, was consistent with Brexit and was a possible outcome of a Leave vote, so we cannot assume that they voted with the intention of requiring the UK not to be in the Single Market.

Peregrinus

Interesting:
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1169724548171874309

Despite the fact that it marginally reduces their vote, this gives Labour (and even more so the Remain parties) a strong incentive to defer any election until after 31 October.

(And there is the added incentive that doing so puts Johnson in a terrible bind - go back on his word not to request an A50 extension, resign to avoid doing so, or go to prison?)

fash

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It's always there isn't it. I lost count of the amount of Irish when the unionists are mentioned over brexit I hear "f*** them"

The primarily nationalist remainers voted to remain in the single market and have no hard border with Ireland.
The primarily DUP voting leavers voted for change- so let them live with the change they are given.
So yes f**k them.

Zubeneschamali

Forty Seven wrote: »

BBC scotland. It's a fly on the wall documentary about a roma gang from Poland operating a slavery ring with over 300 foreign nationals. It will have the leavers foaming at the mouth.

In Scotland? Both of the leavers?

Zubeneschamali

Enzokk wrote: »

I am sure a waffling rich old Etonian is exactly the person to pull the people out of the misery of the last 9 years.

It's not something that comes naturally to us in Ireland, we hear a plummy English accent and think "w@nker", but I was watching a Stephen Fry show about language at one stage, and he was visiting a call centre. The boss was explaining to him that they set up in the North East because the Geordie accent is the most liked in the UK, it's seen as the most friendly.


But, said the boss, if the person calling isn't happy and wants to speak to a supervisor to sort out a problem, Stephen Fry would be perfect for that role because his Oxbridge accent tells the caller that he has authority.


So yes, lots of ordinary people across the UK are used to thinking that an important person, a person who should naturally be in charge, sounds like Boris. It's just part of their class system from birth.

Zubeneschamali

prawnsambo wrote: »

you think that they can't be that vacuous, there has to be a cunning plan behind the bluff and bluster. Unfortunately not. It's just bluff and bluster.

I saw several journos on Twitter say early on that their sources in Whitehall told them people were overestimating the amount of thought that had gone into Boris's plans.


He really did think that just going at it with more oomph would move things along.

VinLieger

cryptocurrency wrote: »

It's always there isn't it. I lost count of the amount of Irish when the unionists are mentioned over brexit I hear "f*** them"

Ahh yes the poor unionists, so accepting of other beliefs and opinions that for their biggest celebrstion of the year they spend it burning flags and effigies of everyone they disagree with....

As others have pointed out the unionist projection that in a UI they would be treated in a similar way to how they would want to treat nationalists if unionists had 100% power is just incorrect. It simply wouldnt happen because we are not bitter old troglodytes but also ironically the laws of the EU wouldnt let it happen either.

woejus

Peregrinus wrote: »

(And there is the added incentive that doing so puts Johnson in a terrible bind - go back on his word not to request an A50 extension, resign to avoid doing so, or go to prison?)

There is no way the opposition are going to pass up this opportunity to have a dead man walking fronting the Tory re-election campaign. "do or die" by Oct 1st, but here, vote for me on the 15th November where we are still in the EU. It's a massive chunk of his credibility gone up front.

The ironing is delicious. :pac:

volchitsa

Forty Seven wrote: »

This referendum came about and was voted in because of immigration. There would be no support for the single market as it comes with free movement of people.

So the referendum result is effectively incompatible with the UK upholding the GFA then? How does that work, a population being asked by its government (and for purely demagogic all reasons) if it wants to do something illegal? And the government then doing so despite there being no legal obligation on it. Shouldn't that make it something of a pariah state?

murphaph

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Unionsts would feel isolated if left alone.

And also the UK can't be bound into a union that they want to leave.

Unionists should have thought about that before voting for Brexit.

No sympathy.

Peregrinus

woejus wrote: »

There is no way the opposition are going to pass up this opportunity to have a dead man walking fronting the Tory re-election campaign. "do or die" by Oct 1st, but here, vote for me on the 15th November where we are still in the EU. It's a massive chunk of his credibility gone up front.

The ironing is delicious. :pac:

Exactly. Johnson/Cummings seem to have overlooked the fact that, the more Johnson protests that he won't comply with the law requiring him to seek an extension on 19 October, the more incentive he gives the Labour party to put off the election until after 19 October.