Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

gmisk

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I have seen it suggested that this is a Cummings special for Search Engine Optimization.

A Tory lies on the Government benches so that when someone googles "Tory Government Lies" they get a comical image instead of what they wanted.

Same as Boris invented a hobby of painting model buses so that when people google Brexit bus boris they get that instead of the 350m red bus.

Bizarre....but you could be right...it worked with the bus thing!

listermint

That would work if people actually Googled Tory government lies. But its such an unnatural sentence they wouldn't.

Peregrinus

listermint wrote: »

That would work if people actually Googled Tory government lies.

No, it wouldn't. I've just googled it, and I didn't get anything about JRM slouching.

10000maniacs

VinLieger wrote: »

Ahh yes the poor unionists, so accepting of other beliefs and opinions that for their biggest celebrstion of the year they spend it burning flags and effigies of everyone they disagree with....

As others have pointed out the unionist projection that in a UI they would be treated in a similar way to how they would want to treat nationalists if unionists had 100% power is just incorrect. It simply wouldnt happen because we are not bitter old troglodytes but also ironically the laws of the EU wouldnt let it happen either.

One of Johnsons solutions to the backstop got it's inspiration from one of Ian Paisley (snr)'s early 70's racist rants that went something like "My people are British, my cattle are Irish". Where else would Johnson go for his inspiration?

Roger_007

What has become apparent is that the so-called 'unwritten constitution' in the U.K. is not worth the paper that it's not written on.
The proposal doing the rounds that the government could amend the Fixed Term Parliaments Act by introducing a piece of legislation that would suspend the 2/3 majority requirement in the Act and replace it with simple majority requirement only goes to prove that the government can literally do anything it likes provided it has a majority in the HoC.
All of the legislation, conventions and precedents that make up the 'constitution' go out the window if the government of the day chooses to ignore them.
The government could in theory abolish the Monarchy, the Supreme Court, the House of Lords or any other 'cherished' institution if they so wished.
They can change any legislation at any time that might prevent them from doing any of the above.

Peregrinus

Roger_007 wrote: »

What has become apparent is that the so-called 'unwritten constitution' in the U.K. is not worth the paper that it's not written on.
The proposal doing the rounds that the government could amend the Fixed Term Parliaments Act by introducing a piece of legislation that would suspend the 2/3 majority requirement in the Act and replace it with simple majority requirement only goes to prove that the government can literally do anything it likes provided it has a majority in the HoC.

But it doesn't have a majority in the HoC, not even close. Even counting the DUP as government votes, the government it's 44 votes off a majority.

Roger_007 wrote: »

All of the legislation, conventions and precedents that make up the 'constitution' go out the window if the government of the day chooses to ignore them.
The government could in theory abolish the Monarchy, the Supreme Court, the House of Lords or any other 'cherished' institution if they so wished.
They can change any legislation at any time that might prevent them from doing any of the above.

No. Parliament does or can do these things, not the government. As Johnson is discovering to his chagrin.

CelticRambler

Roger_007 wrote: »

What has become apparent is that the so-called 'unwritten constitution' in the U.K. is not worth the paper that it's not written on.
The proposal doing the rounds that the government could amend the Fixed Term Parliaments Act by introducing a piece of legislation that would suspend the 2/3 majority requirement in the Act and replace it with simple majority requirement only goes to prove that the government can literally do anything it likes provided it has a majority in the HoC.
All of the legislation, conventions and precedents that make up the 'constitution' go out the window if the government of the day chooses to ignore them.

I wouldn't get too worked up about whether or not their constitution is written down - across the pond, "our friends in America" have one beautifully written and on display for all to see, but that hasn't deterred the current administration from finding ways to ignore its provisions.

Mr.Wemmick

Enzokk wrote: »

Was it for dismissing Dr Nichol's fears on what delays would mean for people that need medication everyday? Or was it for linking the Doctor to someone who was roundly dismissed by peers and lost his license? Or was it for treating parliament with contempt and having a lie down during the debate the other night?

I think Mogg's role is now the joker - keep distracting the public from Bojo's dying political bluster. Pure Shakespeare.

gmisk

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

I think Mogg's role is now the joker - keep distracting the public from Bojo's dying political bluster. Pure Shakespeare.

That would make sense to a degree....but its kind of a take your pick from the range of jokers available situation at the minute.

Enzokk

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

I think Mogg's role is now the joker - keep distracting the public from Bojo's dying political bluster. Pure Shakespeare.

Or, he was never considered for a role in the cabinet because he has nothing to bring to the role and like his boss is way over his head when it comes to running the country.

jm08

10000maniacs wrote: »

One of Johnsons solutions to the backstop got it's inspiration from one of Ian Paisley (snr)'s early 70's racist rants that went something like "My people are British, my cattle are Irish". Where else would Johnson go for his inspiration?

I don't think that was a racist rant, more an answer to either BSE or Foot and Mouth when the British Beef and Lamb industry was wiped out and British Beef banned from Europe. Paisley agreed that Northern Irish Beef was now Irish! That entailed checks coming in from GB onto the island of Ireland.

LeinsterDub

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

I think Mogg's role is now the joker - keep distracting the public from Bojo's dying political bluster. Pure Shakespeare.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

You're giving Johnson and his ilk far too much credit

Zubeneschamali

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, it wouldn't. I've just googled it, and I didn't get anything about JRM slouching.

"Rees-Mogg Lies" - first 7 hits I get are him lying down, #8 him telling lies.
"Tory Lies" - #1 hit I get is him lying down.

(Your Google results may vary since Google shows you what it thinks you want to see mixed with what people who pay them want you to see).

Enzokk

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"Rees-Mogg Lies" - first 7 hits I get are him lying down, #8 him telling lies.
"Tory Lies" - #1 hit I get is him lying down.

(Your Google results may vary since Google shows you what it thinks you want to see mixed with what people who pay them want you to see).

I see a problem if this was the plan though, the Brexit campaign was fought to help parliament regain power from what it lost to the EU (paraphrasing here), and to get away from your lies you have someone disrespecting parliament. For the sense of fair play that the English apparently have (see we voted for it, just deliver it even if it is mental attitude), this seems like a miscalculation to me.

Zubeneschamali

Enzokk wrote: »

For the sense of fair play that the English apparently have (see we voted for it, just deliver it even if it is mental attitude), this seems like a miscalculation to me.

It's also an example of thinking this crew are up to something Machiavellian when maybe they are just jackasses, I am not convinced of it myself.

Peregrinus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"Rees-Mogg Lies" - first 7 hits I get are him lying down, #8 him telling lies.
"Tory Lies" - #1 hit I get is him lying down.

(Your Google results may vary since Google shows you what it thinks you want to see mixed with what people who pay them want you to see).

My google results may vary because what I googled was "Tory government lies", as you originally suggested.

Sam Russell

boggerman1 wrote: »

Anyone that listened to Eamon dunphy's podcast from this week with that plastic paddy Brendan O'Neill will know the real reason poor mogg had to lounge about.according to Brendan its because he's so tall that he finds it difficult to sit up straight in them uncomfortable benches.I kid u not

I thought it was because Mogg has no backbone.

A Shropshire Lad

The DUP are the main problem. Once the Cons dont need their votes they will get shafted

What was it Carson said

Peregrinus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It's also an example of thinking this crew are up to something Machiavellian when maybe that are just jackasses, I am not convinced of it myself.

Well, the view that Cummings is a fiendishly clever operator who plays 4-dimensional chess and bamboozles his opponents has certainly taken a battering these last few weeks. His puppet government has repeated all the mistakes of the May government, but on steroids and at double-speed, with the same wheels-coming-off-the-clown car results.

bob mcbob

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair, moving a nuclear arsenal (difficult and all as that may be) is a manageable exercise given enough time. And Scottish independence (if it were to happen) would take a great deal of time. Welsh devolution took eight years and that was a small enough move in comparison. But the problems with the NI border will happen overnight, will have no lead in time, have no 'transition period' or any other sort of prep time. It will be one day in the same system as Ireland and the next it won't.

Not exactly - Trident is based where it is because there are 3 different deep water routes that the subs can take when they leave Faslane - so that it is difficult for Russian subs to track them. There are no similar bases anywhere in England or Wales.

trellheim

Yes so apparently the UK just used a black marker to X out the backstop from May's WA and claimed they were serious proposals .




everyone else going "wtf"

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1169894807335886848

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1169642574027661312

slightly late to the party I know


but when Gavin Barwell thrashes you in public you really have to wonder

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1169729911122202625

prawnsambo

CelticRambler wrote: »

I wouldn't get too worked up about whether or not their constitution is written down - across the pond, "our friends in America" have one beautifully written and on display for all to see, but that hasn't deterred the current administration from finding ways to ignore its provisions.

All constitutions have flaws and are (and should be) constantly updated. One of the flaws of the US constitution is the massively tortuous method by which it can be updated. Partly due to the size and diversity of the US, but also reflecting the time it was original written in. And of course the US President has executive power which the current one is wielding like a child with a water pistol. The UK 'constitution' is a mess of law and convention that dates back hundreds of years. Not constitutionally relevant, but as an example, it is still illegal to walk into the houses of parliament in a suit of armour. That's been on the statute books since the 14th century.

trellheim

PS Gina Miller just lost the prorogation case https://order-order.com/2019/09/06/gina-miller-john-major-lose-prorogation-case/

ToBeFrank123

prawnsambo wrote: »

All constitutions have flaws and are (and should be) constantly updated. One of the flaws of the US constitution is the massively tortuous method by which it can be updated. Partly due to the size and diversity of the US, but also reflecting the time it was original written in. And of course the US President has executive power which the current one is wielding like a child with a water pistol. The UK 'constitution' is a mess of law and convention that dates back hundreds of years. Not constitutionally relevant, but as an example, it is still illegal to walk into the houses of parliament in a suit of armour. That's been on the statute books since the 14th century.

The modern equivalent would be a bullet proof vest. Anyone who walks in there wearing one is up to no good. Sounds like a good law to me.

ToBeFrank123

trellheim wrote: »

PS Gina Miller just lost the prorogation case https://order-order.com/2019/09/06/gina-miller-john-major-lose-prorogation-case/

Was Gina Miller the reason that the Withdrawal Agreement had to be passed by the House of Commons?

trellheim

something along those lines, that parliament was sovereign ... but that was back before the dark ages chuckle

DOCARCH

Now that the DUP are in effect out of the equation....their votes mean nothing now....I would have thought BJ would have jumped at NI only backstop, which EU would agree to (did previously), and put revised WA to the HoC? Might be one way of delivering Brexit?

quokula

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

"Rees-Mogg Lies" - first 7 hits I get are him lying down, #8 him telling lies.
"Tory Lies" - #1 hit I get is him lying down.

(Your Google results may vary since Google shows you what it thinks you want to see mixed with what people who pay them want you to see).

See also "Boris Johnson Bus" gives that bizarre ramble he gave in an interview a few weeks ago about painting cardboard buses, rather than the lies he spread on the side of one during the campaign.

gmisk

DOCARCH wrote: »

Now that the DUP are in effect out of the equation....their votes mean nothing now....I would have thought BJ would have jumped at NI only backstop, which EU would agree to (did previously), and put revised WA to the HoC? Might be one way of delivering Brexit?

He might still need their 10 (atm) votes after another general election.

quokula

DOCARCH wrote: »

Now that the DUP are in effect out of the equation....their votes mean nothing now....I would have thought BJ would have jumped at NI only backstop, which EU would agree to (did previously), and put revised WA to the HoC? Might be one way of delivering Brexit?

He won't do it because it would just expose the fact that the hardcore brexiters in the Tory party will still vote against it regardless.

And the vast majority of MPs who voted against it in Labour, SNP etc did so because it was going to be too hard a Brexit, not because of the backstop.

The backstop is just a convenient way of trying to shift blame to Ireland / the EU for parliament not agreeing anything. If it wasn't that it would be something else.