Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how

PropJoe10 wrote: »

That's been his strategy since he took office. None of this is surprising. It's the Dominic Cummings playbook, pure and simple.

Maybe, but Johnson looking as isolated and clueless as he does at times and reports of Cummings stumbling around Westminster with glass of wine in hand and being extremely verbal in his condemnation of Tory rebels doesn't indicate that this is all going according to plan.

Phillipe Lamberts blunt "That's bullsh*t" assessment of UK statements on negotiations was necessary to dispel some of the lies from Johnson but I wonder how many in the UK actually even heard that statement.

prunudo

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

Lady Spangles

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

The EU have already ruled out a re-negotiation though. They're eager to get out because it's already been three years and because they're all bloody insane.

Tell me how

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

Because they are terrified that every extension that passes without them leaving increases the likelihood that they will never leave.

29th March, 30th June and now 31st October.
Each failure to leave by a deadline indicates the problems and gives voice to those saying the people must be asked again.

A Dub in Glasgo

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

The EU extended the Brexit date to 31 Oct, it was meant to be 29 March but the UK requested two extension periods. It should be noted that the UK has done nothing but sabotage the terms of the extension

Imreoir2

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

Fear of the Brexit Party I suppose. This whole saga started as an atempt to head off UKIP eating into the Tory vote and so it continues but replace the now defunct UKIP with TBP.

Professor Moriarty

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

Have a look at who is at the helm of the good ship Tory Party. That's why.

lobbylad

From Boris: "Look at fantastic Scottish beef, which I’ve just been looking at. Not a morsel of it currently goes to America. You could do a a free trade deal with America where you don’t import their hormone-treated beef, but you do a deal on high-quality products, you allow Scottish farmers to sell, to discover new markets around the world."

Eh, doesn't Ireland export beef to the USA (over 1766 tonnes in first 10 months of 2018) - so the UK is surely free to negotiate selling beef to the US as it is? It's not the EU that's stopping them?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/e7-75-million-worth-of-irish-beef-exported-to-us-up-to-october/

Strazdas

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

Closely tied in with a general election I'm sure. Johnson and Cummings think the best chance of winning a GE is to hold one very early and to 'deliver Brexit' at the same time. Brexit dragging on into 2020 would be very bad news and each passing day would lessen the chances of a GE win.

Professor Moriarty

lobbylad wrote: »

From Boris: "Look at fantastic Scottish beef, which I’ve just been looking at. Not a morsel of it currently goes to America. You could do a a free trade deal with America where you don’t import their hormone-treated beef, but you do a deal on high-quality products, you allow Scottish farmers to sell, to discover new markets around the world."

Eh, doesn't Ireland export beef to the USA (over 1766 tonnes in first 10 months of 2018) - so the UK is surely free to negotiate selling beef to the US as it is? It's not the EU that's stopping them?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/e7-75-million-worth-of-irish-beef-exported-to-us-up-to-october/

Yeah but what have facts got to do with it?

mrbrianj

prunudo wrote: »

Okay, crazy thought here, and probably haven't thought it out properly....
But bar saving face, what is the rush to get out on the 31st Oct. why rush out with no plans, no deal, why not try and negotiate a good deal over whatever time period it takes. Why are they so eager to get out, even if it means absolute chaos and years of hardship and inevitable trade deals dragging on.

The crash out aim is the English exceptionalism belief that they will force Ireland to drop the back stop and effectively leave the single market and that the German Car makers and the Italian prosecco makers will come knocking the door down to sell for less than they are now.

They dont expect that Ireland will put the single market before the UK market.

spacecoyote

lobbylad wrote: »

From Boris: "Look at fantastic Scottish beef, which I’ve just been looking at. Not a morsel of it currently goes to America. You could do a a free trade deal with America where you don’t import their hormone-treated beef, but you do a deal on high-quality products, you allow Scottish farmers to sell, to discover new markets around the world."

Eh, doesn't Ireland export beef to the USA (over 1766 tonnes in first 10 months of 2018) - so the UK is surely free to negotiate selling beef to the US as it is? It's not the EU that's stopping them?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/e7-75-million-worth-of-irish-beef-exported-to-us-up-to-october/

And no doubt the American's would love a 1-sided deal like that...you have to buy all of our beef, but we'll buy none of yours

Hermy

As Brexit chunters on to who knows where I continue to read this thread with interest and I'm grateful to the many contributors for providing so much informed comment and many useful links for further reading. However, I'd be grateful to ye for your input on two minor matters that seem to have passed me by.

Firstly, how has the wonderful Speaker Bercow managed to hold onto his seat this long, given the thorn he's been in the side of the Tory government? I take it there is no convenient mechanism that would allow a government not disposed to him to remove him from office.

And secondly, what is meant by a level playing field in the context of Brexit?

mrbrianj

lobbylad wrote: »

From Boris: "Look at fantastic Scottish beef, which I’ve just been looking at. Not a morsel of it currently goes to America. You could do a a free trade deal with America where you don’t import their hormone-treated beef, but you do a deal on high-quality products, you allow Scottish farmers to sell, to discover new markets around the world."

Eh, doesn't Ireland export beef to the USA (over 1766 tonnes in first 10 months of 2018) - so the UK is surely free to negotiate selling beef to the US as it is? It's not the EU that's stopping them?

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/e7-75-million-worth-of-irish-beef-exported-to-us-up-to-october/

Yeah, the one way trade thing will work with the US aright, just like his negotiations with the EU are working now.

ElectronVolt

That Ian Paisley quote, while it ruffled a lot of sensitivities and feathers of Twitter-based Irish nationals and looked like it was calling Irish people cattle, very much seemed to be about separate regulations for Northern Ireland. It could have been clumsy and offensive language, or it could have been an attempt to soften the blow he's about to give the DUP.

As it stands, throwing the DUP under the bus doesn't matter to him in the least. They're not the Tories and he already has a minority government that is just pending a vote of no confidence and a general election. A few more votes gone is neither here nor there.

What difference to is make to Boris if the DUP's nose is out of joint? His only objective is securing Brexit for England in reality. He is an English nationalist and he's appealing to an English nationalist vote.

briany

Hermy wrote: »

As Brexit chunters on to who knows where I continue to read this thread with interest and I'm grateful to the many contributors for providing so much informed comment and many useful links for further reading. However, I'd be grateful to ye for your input on two minor matters that seem to have passed me by.

Firstly, how has the wonderful Speaker Bercow managed to hold onto his seat this long, given the thorn he's been in the side of the Tory government? I take it there is no convenient mechanism that would allow a government not disposed to him to remove him from office.

Bercow will be there until the next GE. He said he'll be stepping down as speaker after his current term. As for removing him before that, I don't think the parliamentary will is there for that.

briany

ElectronVolt wrote: »

That Ian Paisley quote, while it ruffled a lot of sensitivities and feathers of Twitter-based Irish nationals and looked like it was calling Irish people cattle, very much seemed to be about separate regulations for Northern Ireland. It could have been clumsy and offensive language, or it could have been an attempt to soften the blow he's about to give the DUP.

As it stands, throwing the DUP under the bus doesn't matter to him in the least. They're not the Tories and he already has a minority government that is just pending a vote of no confidence and a general election. A few more votes gone is neither here nor there.

What difference to is make to Boris if the DUP's nose is out of joint? His only objective is securing Brexit for England in reality. He is an English nationalist and he's appealing to an English nationalist vote.

The DUP wouldn't be getting thrown under the bus, except for their notions of hyper-Brititshness. The backstop leaves NI safe on the kerb while the rest of the UK eats tyre.

robinph

briany wrote: »

Bercow will be there until the next GE. He said he'll be stepping down as speaker after his current term. As for removing him before that, I don't think the parliamentary will is there for that.

I don't think he'd step down before Brexit is sorted, or at least delayed for a long time. Not that it's going to happen now, but he wouldn't have been stepping down if the GE was called for the beginning of October as he'd have seen that as just a way to try and get a more Brexity minded speaker installed who'd let May and now Johnson away with their games.

ElectronVolt

briany wrote: »

The DUP wouldn't be getting thrown under the bus, except for their notions of hyper-Brititshness. The backstop leaves NI safe on the kerb while the rest of the UK eats tyre.

Of course not in the real world sense, but politically they most definitely would be. They've some ridiculous notion that the Tories actually have some kind of fondness for them or loyalty towards them as a partner.

is_that_so

Meanwhile the EU seems to have accepted a No-Deal Brexit as all but inevitable but have moved on to the planning phase, something Britain has been manifestly incapable of doing. This will be in place and any talks and support required addressed long before the UK do.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0906/1074298-eu-border-checks/

El Weirdo

ElectronVolt wrote: »

That Ian Paisley quote, while it ruffled a lot of sensitivities and feathers of Twitter-based Irish nationals and looked like it was calling Irish people cattle...

Wait, was this a thing?

mrbrianj

is_that_so wrote: »

Meanwhile the EU seems to have all but accepted a No-Deal Brexit as all but inevitable but have moved on to the planning phase, something Britain has been manifestly incapable of doing. This will be in place and any talks and support required addressed long before the UK do.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0906/1074298-eu-border-checks/

Yes, the EU will be passive up to a point then its our choice where to have checks - the border with the Uk or the ports with the EU. Only one winner there unfortunately.

But, i'd reckon at this stage the EU know that the UK wont be capable to deal until they actually experience to realities of a hard Brexit.

ElectronVolt

El Weirdo wrote: »

Wait, was this a thing?

He said the "people are British and the cattle are Irish" which caused a bit of Twitter outrage, but I suspect it's more of an opening to a NI only backstop.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/paisleys-irish-cows-quip-may-be-beginnings-of-a-solution-to-backstop-issue-pm-suggests-38471943.html

Sounds fine to me. Did people reverse the nouns and get mad?

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

Check out the Conservatives official Twitter. It's like the Sun/ Daily Mail/ etc. mixed up with UKIP and Brexit party feed and spewed out.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1169934208778874885

Pathetic

Hard to believe, but they are still pursuing this and have now doubled down on it with actual materials they have paid for an distributed.

https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1169972280736321537

Jesus wept. It's all a big joke. KFC should sue.

ath262

Hermy wrote: »

A.....
And secondly, what is meant by a level playing field in the context of Brexit?

I believe that their attempt to back out of commitments in the Political Declaration to the environment, employment law and social policy.


see the section after first sub-header in this article in the Guardian - Beyond the backstop: how Johnson wants to change Brexit deal

Strazdas

Hermy wrote: »

As Brexit chunters on to who knows where I continue to read this thread with interest and I'm grateful to the many contributors for providing so much informed comment and many useful links for further reading. However, I'd be grateful to ye for your input on two minor matters that seem to have passed me by.

Firstly, how has the wonderful Speaker Bercow managed to hold onto his seat this long, given the thorn he's been in the side of the Tory government? I take it there is no convenient mechanism that would allow a government not disposed to him to remove him from office.

And secondly, what is meant by a level playing field in the context of Brexit?

Level playing field means the UK having to abide by the same rules, regulations and standards as the Single Market (even if it is not a member). However, what Johnson wants to do is set the UK up as a competitor to the SM, free to go for whatever rules he likes and to sign trade deals with whomever he likes.

Royale with Cheese

That JFC thing is the single most pathetic thing I've seen in politics.

El Weirdo

ElectronVolt wrote: »

He said the "people are British and the cattle are Irish" which caused a bit of Twitter outrage, but I suspect it's more of an opening to a NI only backstop.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/paisleys-irish-cows-quip-may-be-beginnings-of-a-solution-to-backstop-issue-pm-suggests-38471943.html

I heard the quote, and I remember the original quote from Paisley. I just can't imagine how it caused outrage, twitter-based or otherwise.

J Mysterio

Hermy wrote: »

As Brexit chunters on to who knows where I continue to read this thread with interest and I'm grateful to the many contributors for providing so much informed comment and many useful links for further reading. However, I'd be grateful to ye for your input on two minor matters that seem to have passed me by.

Firstly, how has the wonderful Speaker Bercow managed to hold onto his seat this long, given the thorn he's been in the side of the Tory government? I take it there is no convenient mechanism that would allow a government not disposed to him to remove him from office.

And secondly, what is meant by a level playing field in the context of Brexit?

My understanding is that by 'level playing field' they mean that both economies would continue to follow the same standards for goods they produce and import. If one side reduces or lowers these standards, they might have a competitive advantage for their economy, but citizens and society then suffer in what is then a 'unlevel playing field' and a potential raise to the bottom vis a vis regulation and standards.