Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

10000maniacs

Enzokk wrote: »

Another prime example of why the UK finds itself in the trouble it does,

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1170086060568846338?s=20



It takes some creative thinking to think that defying the law and ignoring a law passed by parliament as PM is not the reason for a constitutional crises, but the opposition somehow is to blame for that.

Well he did say "When we leave the EU we can make our own laws".
Reminds me of something. Just scanning in a history book.

"In the presidential election held on March 13, 1932, there were four candidates: the incumbent, Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Hitler, and two minor candidates, Ernst Thaelmann and Theodore Duesterberg. The results were:

Hindenburg 49.6 percent
Hitler 30.1 percent
Thaelmann 13.2 percent
Duesterberg 6.8 percent

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, almost 70 percent of the German people voted against Hitler, causing his supporter Joseph Goebbels, who would later become Hitler’s minister of propaganda, to lament in his journal, “We’re beaten; terrible outlook. Party circles badly depressed and dejected.”

Since Hindenberg had not received a majority of the vote, however, a runoff election had to be held among the top three vote-getters. On April 19, 1932, the runoff results were:

Hindenburg 53.0 percent
Hitler 36.8 percent
Thaelmann 10.2 percent

Thus, even though Hitler’fs vote total had risen, he still had been decisively rejected by the German people.

On June 1, 1932, Hindenberg appointed Franz von Papen as chancellor of Germany, whom Shirer described as an unexpected and ludicrous figure. Papen immediately dissolved the Reichstag (the national congress) and called for new elections, the third legislative election in five months.

Hitler and his fellow members of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party, who were determined to bring down the republic and establish dictatorial rule in Germany, did everything they could to create chaos in the streets, including initiating political violence and murder. The situation got so bad that martial law was proclaimed in Berlin.

Even though Hitler had badly lost the presidential election, he was drawing ever-larger crowds during the congressional election. As Shirer points out,

In one day, July 27, he spoke to 60,000 persons in Brandenburg, to nearly as many in Potsdam, and that evening to 120,000 massed in the giant Grunewald Stadium in Berlin while outside an additional 100,000 heard his voice by loudspeaker.

Zubeneschamali

Forty Seven wrote: »

The national nature of boards and our shared history has at times resulted in this discussion becoming a bit of an echo chamber.

Our shared what? I thought you were a Scottish unionist?

A bit of devil's advocacy and alternate opinion cannot be bad for debate.

Ah.

Leroy42

prawnsambo wrote: »

Enzokk wrote: »

The only way to break the deadlock is another referendum on the deal. If Vote Leave doesn't want the deal on offer then they should put forward no-deal against remain. But they don't want to do that so either we have a PM breaking the law or riots from Brexiteers.

There's no chance Johnson will break the law. His whole life has been about avoiding personal responsibility and lying to preserve himself. The chances he'd 'martyr' himself with the possibility of jail are ludicrously small. Ironic that they're trying to goad Corbyn with 'chicken' insults. There's a yellow streak a mile wide down Johnson's back.

And one needs to question why he fought so hard against the bill, not forgetting that he prorogued parliament in order to try to limit the ability to pass such a bill, and in the process lose the majority and end up kicking out 21 MPs from the party on the basis that he wouldn't care anyway.

Just like the 3rd Runway vanishing act, Johnson will find a way to avoid personally asking for an extension. He will claim the HoC went over his head, that he didn't want it but is duty bound to carry out the orders of Her Majesty.

Johnson is many things but brave is not one of them. This is the guy who failed to contest the previous Tory leadership race, allowing the Remainer TM (tm) to seize control and try to thwart Brexit!

The man that ran away on a foreign trip rather that vote as he had promised against 3rd Runway.

Calina

Forty Seven wrote: »

I stand by my ascertation that imperialism was put to bed some decades ago and attempts at reconciliation have been in good faith. Dragging Cromwell and the likes into this present day debacle will not assist in anyway with the debate.

In the current context where it is suggested that Ireland leaves the EU to facilitate Britain doing so, where the UK has attempted to enforce its trade and foreign policy on Ireland, where much of the narrative and policy around Brexit focused on Empire 2.0, you cannot consider reconciliation as being in good faith.

As for Cromwell, the issue lies in Britain's inability to address its own atrocities. This lack of self awareness is a key contributor to Brexit and the country's inability to address Brexit. Britain has been an extremely nasty colonial power but rarely if ever faces up to its atrocities.

Brexit is a pure expression of imperialism. Most of its narrative is pitched in buccaneering free trade skullduggery. But the global geopolitical context has changed from the days of the East India trading companies.

Britain's strength lay in its partnerships. The truth is India probably merits a permanent seat on the UN Security Council more than the UK does.

But more than anything, the UK population needs a new media and more language skills. We, the EN speaking nations, need to lose our insular view of the world and the Anglocentric view of the world needs challenging.

Forty Seven

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

The national nature of boards and our shared history has at times resulted in this discussion becoming a bit of an echo chamber.

Our shared what? I thought you were a Scottish unionist?

The bad feeling the Irish have towards my country due to the history between us. 'Shared' was the wrong choice of word it seems.

prawnsambo

Calina wrote: »

Brexit is a pure expression of imperialism. Most of its narrative is pitched in buccaneering free trade skullduggery. But the global geopolitical context has changed from the days of the East India trading companies.

John McDonnell famously got in hot water for his less than complimentary comments on Churchill. But as sacred cows go, Churchill is not far removed from Cromwell, except that his reach was far wider than Cromwell's. His involvement, either directly or indirectly in atrocities in India, Kenya and Afghanistan is well documented, but now he's invoked regularly by Johnson, Leave supporters etc. as the gold standard of leadership that they aspire to be or to have.

As this article in Bloomberg points out (often in his own words) there was more to Churchill than our own experience of the Black and Tans:

At the start of his career, as a young cavalry officer on the northwest frontier of India, he declared the Pashtuns needed to recognize “the superiority of [the British] race” and that those who resisted would “be killed without quarter.” He wrote happily about how he and his comrades “systematically, village by village, destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation. Every tribesman caught was speared or cut down at once.”

Midster

This whole dam situation has been ridiculous right from the start. It’s simple to clear this blockage of democracy, and it should have absolutely been done months ago now.
And if it had have done, by now we would have already left or stayed.

The public decided to leave, but now the government cannot come to any kind of decision as to how to leave.
Or if to leave at all.

Put together 4/5 simple options that the government can agree on as being credible and allow the public to vote on them.

If the government cannot come to a decision, or if they cannot get to a majority, they simply have to cast it to a wider audience. This effects everyone, and once the public has been informed and has voted the government can get on with just that one thing.

Forty Seven

Calina wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

I stand by my ascertation that imperialism was put to bed some decades ago and attempts at reconciliation have been in good faith. Dragging Cromwell and the likes into this present day debacle will not assist in anyway with the debate.

In the current context where it is suggested that Ireland leaves the EU to facilitate Britain doing so, where the UK has attempted to enforce its trade and foreign policy on Ireland, where much of the narrative and policy around Brexit focused on Empire 2.0, you cannot consider reconciliation as being in good faith.

As for Cromwell, the issue lies in Britain's inability to address its own atrocities. This lack of self awareness is a key contributor to Brexit and the country's inability to address Brexit. Britain has been an extremely nasty colonial power but rarely if ever faces up to its atrocities.

Brexit is a pure expression of imperialism. Most of its narrative is pitched in buccaneering free trade skullduggery. But the global geopolitical context has changed from the days of the East India trading companies.

Britain's strength lay in its partnerships. The truth is India probably merits a permanent seat on the UN Security Council more than the UK does.

But more than anything, the UK population needs a new media and more language skills. We, the EN speaking nations, need to lose our insular view of the world and the Anglocentric view of the world needs challenging.

Wow. I don't know where that came from but brexit is not imperialism. It is inward looking nationalism.

The GFA appeared to me to be brought about in good faith. Many got away with murder not just on our side.

What do you suggest we do to muzzle the media? Sounds very dictatorial to me. There are many sources of news from both sides. The public is free to pick and choose. Print media is in its death throes anyway.

I will have to come back to this. I have things to do now its finally stopped raining. Hopefully there will not be 6 pages requiring my attention when I return. It's hard to reply to everything.

Leonard Hofstadter

I see Phil Hogan has been appointed trade commissioner when the new commission takes over in November.

Good luck to the UK trying to get a good deal out of him if they decide to go down the no deal route.

So much for the EU throwing Ireland under the bus at the last minute as has often (falsely) been predicted by the UK Government and Brexiteers!!

https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/phil-hogan-set-to-get-key-eu-trade-negotiating-role-postbrexit-38474333.html

A Dub in Glasgo

Forty Seven wrote: »

My partner registered to vote yesterday. She lives in Angus, currently Tory. She is voting Tory as the only viable option to keep out the snp and try to prevent independence. She is 31. Make of that what you will.

Tory candidate won a 6.6% majority in 2017. It's her first time in parliament and she is one of the youngest MPs at 30 years of age. Asked how she voted in the 2016 referendum she stated she 'didn't vote as the choice was too difficult'.

The youth ladies and gentlemen. Don't be expecting too much from the under 35s.

Kirstene Hair is dim, simple as that. It is a sad reflection on that constituency that they voted for her, the next election will fix that

She said 'I just ultimately couldn't make that decision and I thought I would therefore go with the will of the UK which if I'm honest I thought we would remain' now she is an out and out no deal Brexiter

weemcd

Despite what the polls may or may not say I am highly sceptical of Boris Johnson's ability to be elected. He is in the traditional period of good will a leader normally gets before the vultures start circling, Johnson's had about 1 full week in Parliament and he's been absolutely annihilated at every turn. If his poor run of form continues I see a very open election.

https://youtu.be/fSygWN-qMfY

^ have a look at this, ordinary guy on the street is tearing Johnson to shreds and he's standing there completely lost like a deer in the headlights. He's looking around for someone to whisk him away, come save him or for someone to blame but they're not appearing, he looks absolutely clueless.

Duane Dibbley

I’d like to know what happens if BJ doesn’t ask for an extension. I know he breaks the law and could be arrested. But besides that would the UK crash out.

GM228

Duane Dibbley wrote: »

I’d like to know what happens if BJ doesn’t ask for an extension. I know he breaks the law and could be arrested. But besides that would the UK crash out.

It is extremely unlikely he would be arrested, breaking the law and committing a crime (and one which affords a power of arrest) are not the same, failure to request an extension is not in and of itself an offence.

Yes assuming there is no unanimous agreement between the UK and the EU27 on an extension and no deal agreed then yes they crash out.

trellheim

If he offers parliament ratifying WA with a deal beforehand he does not have to resign or crash out.

This is extremely unlikely as Labour have voted against WA consistently and ERG will too (Steve Baker is on a promise not to tweet by the look of it).

Next step is if Queen assents to the bill

GM228

trellheim wrote: »

Next step is if Queen assents to the bill

Last time Royal Assent was refused was in 1708 when Queen Anne rejected the Scottish Militia Bill.

It is extremely unlikely the Queen will refuse to assent, however, one valid reason for refusal to assent is when advised not to by the PM...

Assent is seen as no more than a formality these days, but will the 311 year old formality come to an end? In fact I actually wouldn't be surprised if Johnson managed to advise her not to.

GM228

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I see Phil Hogan has been appointed trade commissioner when the new commission takes over in November.

He appears to be the man for the job, he hasn't got it yet and a week can see a lot of changes in politics as we all know.

woohoo!!!

It's very uncertain whether the EU will grant an extension. I think we could see a situation where Johnson will refuse to ask for an extension and the EU will refuse to get drawn into an internal UK matter. But leaving all that aside, the situation has deteriorated since the last 6 month extension and a line has to be drawn eventually.

Enzokk

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's no chance Johnson will break the law. His whole life has been about avoiding personal responsibility and lying to preserve himself. The chances he'd 'martyr' himself with the possibility of jail are ludicrously small. Ironic that they're trying to goad Corbyn with 'chicken' insults. There's a yellow streak a mile wide down Johnson's back.

Most likely, but he will need to stand by one of his convictions these days as he is painting himself into an awful corner if he keeps breaking promises. I feel it is starting to wear thin for the populace, they can probably take a little dishonesty from their politicians but to continually lie and break promises should not be rewarded.

murphaph

Forty Seven wrote: »

The bad feeling the Irish have towards my country due to the history between us. 'Shared' was the wrong choice of word it seems.

To be honest the Irish, if they feel any I'll will, is directed at England. The history of the Highland Clearances is well known in Ireland too.

There is no place for ancient hatred but the healing process was still in progress. NI makes things "complicated" but Ireland and England were on a good road until Brexit. It is simply deeply insensitive to Ireland to treat the GFA as subordinate to Brexit. The UK's approach from the beginning should have treated NI differently because it is different.

robindch

Firebrand Russian politician, Vladimir Zhirinovskiy, lends his not inconsiderable weight to Mr Johnson:

Vlad the Inhaler wrote:

Boris Johnson is quite right in his wish to remove Britain from the bondage of the European Union which, truly, is a western European collective farm. So get your hands off Boris Johnson! I am ready to send a group of LDPR deputies to help him out in London.

https://twitter.com/Zhirinovskiy/status/1169504752150941696

prawnsambo

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest the Irish, if they feel any I'll will, is directed at England. The history of the Highland Clearances is well known in Ireland too.

There is no place for ancient hatred but the healing process was still in progress. NI makes things "complicated" but Ireland and England were on a good road until Brexit. It is simply deeply insensitive to Ireland to treat the GFA as subordinate to Brexit. The UK's approach from the beginning should have treated NI differently because it is different.

It didn't help that those who pointed out the incompatibility of brexit and the GFA were dismissed vociferously as proponents of 'project fear'. That particularly rankled as our concerns here, were being dismissed as lies by obvious liars. I couldn't overstate this enough. It was infuriating by being simultaneously dismissive, patronising and ignorant. And to add insult to injury, all of those concerns at the time are now denied and replaced by even more lies about the EU using the GFA and us being their puppets. Twenty years of progress burned down by children playing with matches.

ElectronVolt

I think this is something being lost on on the British media too. A lot of European governments now see the Tories as far right nationalists, not a mainstream party.

Getting praise from far right Russians and Trump isn't really going to do the UK any favours.

Water John

If the PM doesn't ask the EU for an extension, would he be in contempt of Parliament? Then they could charge him and imprison him.

Leroy42

I don't think it has to come from the PM personally, their power comes from the HoC.

Just like the WA was agreed by TM but rejected by the HoC. So HoC is clearly, demonstrably superior and Johnsons own feelings are irrelevant

prawnsambo

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't think it has to come from the PM personally, their power comes from the HoC.

Just like the WA was agreed by TM but rejected by the HoC. So HoC is clearly, demonstrably superior and Johnsons own feelings are irrelevant

I believe it has to come from the government. So not specifically Johnson, but perhaps a member of government, i.e someone in the cabinet.

beggars_bush

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/06/boris-johnson-twilight-zone-police-escort-conservatives?__twitter_impression=true

This is magnificent reading

Don't splitter your coffee over your screen

Kermit.de.frog

I think Johnson is reverting to the NI only backstop.

All Ireland agri food zone is a good start but there is also the fact he no longer needs the DUP.

I suspect he'll go for a deal on the basis of NI only while he can say the GB is then not trapped.

Otherwise why would he even bother coming here Monday? Something is shifting...

A Shropshire Lad

I wonder when people go to vote in the next election will it ever cross their minds about trust. Trust Boris, or trust Jeremy.

Who can trust any politician at the end of the day............... but when your own brother doesnt trust you !

prawnsambo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think Johnson is reverting to the NI only backstop.

All Ireland agri food zone is a good start but there is also the fact he no longer needs the DUP.

I suspect he'll go for a deal on the basis of NI only while he can say the GB is then not trapped.

Otherwise why would he even bother coming here Monday? Something is shifting...

With Johnson, who knows? Another attempt to bully us, float unicorns, try the '30% Ian Paisley' solution or just more nothing and spin it any way he wants. Or even the original backstop, but he should know that's a runner already.

devnull

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I wonder when people go to vote in the next election will it ever cross their minds about trust. Trust Boris, or trust Jeremy.

Who can trust any politician at the end of the day............... but when your own brother doesnt trust you !

All I will say about Jeremy Corbyn is this.

Recently he was moaning about Costa Coffee and the way they treat their staff and retweeted a mention about this, but a short while after I saw Jeremy Corbyn and his aide's drinking, you've guessed it, Costa Coffee on a train.

Saying that however if I had a vote, Boris is so bad that I think I would vote Labour now, as it's the best chance to stop Boris. When it was May and Corbyn I wouldn't vote for either of them and vote Lib Dem, but Boris is that bad that in an odd way it would make me vote Labour rather than Lib Dem as stopping Boris would now be more important to me than anything else as he is a danger to democracy.