Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

This argument is sometimes used incorrectly but in this case I think it is apt. If civil servants didn't do anything wrong in regards to prorogation why would they be scared of their personal communications being looked at? Unless they think some civil servant lead the way other than Cummings, there shouldn't be any problem with them giving over their personal devices to check what they have done.

CelticRambler

A couple of "Chalk and cheese" observations, after the fun and games today:
(1) While there's many a boards.ie member (and undoubtedly many a propper-up of the bar in pubs around the country) who moan long and loud about Leo Varadkar's failure as a politician, the contrast between him and Boris Johnson in terms of statesmanliness this morning was impressive. Not having had a vote in Ireland for more than two decades, he's not really "my" Taoiseach, but watching the press conference from afar, I am proud to see my country's government led by someone who looks and acts like they belong on the world stage.
(2) Several hours after Johnson's amateur buffoonery in Dublin, John Bercow's "stepping down" speech was a very welcome dose of erudite oratory: a clear and waffle-free statement of what he was doing, when he'd do it, and how he'd come to his decision.

Strange as it may seem on the day when the "mother of all democracies" is shut down for no good reason, it's reassuring to know that politics is not rotten to the core: that there are still examples of quality to be found in the corridors and chambers of power.

Edit to acknowledge Spanish Eyes getting his/her post in while I was writing! Interesting use of the same vocabulary!

Professor Moriarty

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Also, being a goddess, surely Athena was far more powerful than the demi-god Hercules?

Exactly, especially as she was the daughter of Zeus. Interestingly, she was somewhat of an immaculate conception as she grew out of Zeus's head and had no mother. Which makes her very powerful. But we veer off topic.

J Mysterio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

As an aside, Varadkar's reference to Ireland being Johnson's Athena was very clever. There are a number of parallels. Firstly, in Greek mythology, Athena was the goddess who knocked Hercules out when he went mad, killed his own children and was about to kill his father. So Ireland/Athena is restraining an insane Johnson/Hercules. Secondly, Athena was sometimes known as the goddess of democracy. So Ireland/Athena represents democracy versus a violent Johnson/Hercules. Thirdly, Athena was also Hercules' half-sister which symbolises the historic ties between Ireland and the UK.

As much as I enjoyed that (and there is something satisfying in it), I can see how it might enrage some people unnecessarily. It could perhaps appear to display an attitude that might be interpreted as being a little too 'smug' and cock-sure at the moment, with 'the weight of the EU behind us', and at this time of existential crisis for the UK.

Basically, It is a fine balance, and we should try to keep to the high ground so far as possible. We do of course have some moral righteousness through the weight of our history to power us in defending our interests RE the UK - and England in particular - but I prefer us to remain more magnanimous in an official capacity for these type of events, even in the face of such wreckless incompetence. The media were there to ask the tough questions.

So... be firm, tough, and stand our ground, but maybe invoking the Greek Gods and casting ourselves in an allegorical manner as the hero to save the UK is perhaps a little too much.

While Johnson was fairly shambolic in the event as per usual, it must be conceded that he did at least acknowledge - in Dublin - that Ireland did not want or ask for 'the Brexit conundrum'. This is something Coveney in particular has said repeatedly for the last few years - a core message, delivered. Despite everything, and as much as I hold Johnson in contempt, I feel he made some effort, and anyway he knows we will not give on this.

Tl:dr ramble- no need to kick them while they are burning their house down.

The big question is whether there really was any genuine discussions between Johnson and Varadkar? There's not much to discuss untill there is a UK government that can pass a deal in Westminster? I'm not sure what Johnson 'got' from this exercise other than another kicking.

mcmoustache

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Whatever our views might be on LV/FG, he was just so polished, professional and statesmanlike today. I was very proud to have him representing us on the World stage.

The comparison between both of them was so evident.

I think a stuffed shirt delivering those lines would look statesmanlike beside Boris. Leo did well today, don't get me wrong, but clearly stating our country's position without acting like an @ss is something that all leaders should be able to do.

listermint

J Mysterio wrote: »

As much as I enjoyed that (and there is something satisfying in it), I can see how it might enrage some people unnecessarily. It could perhaps appear to display an attitude that might be interpreted as being a little too 'smug' and cock-sure at the moment, with 'the weight of the EU behind us', and at this time of existential crisis for the UK.

Basically, It is a fine balance, and we should try to keep to the high ground so far as possible. We do of course have some moral righteousness through the weight of our history to power us in defending our interests RE the UK - and England in particular - but I prefer us to remain more magnanimous in an official capacity for these type of events, even in the face of such wreckless incompetence. The media were there to ask the tough questions.

So... be firm, tough, and stand our ground, but maybe invoking the Greek Gods and casting ourselves in an allegorical manner as the hero to save the UK is perhaps a little too much.

While Johnson was fairly shambolic in the event as per usual, it must be conceded that he did at least acknowledge - in Dublin - that Ireland did not want or ask for 'the Brexit conundrum'. This is something Coveney in particular has said repeatedly for the last few years - a core message, delivered. Despite everything, and as much as I hold Johnson in contempt, I feel he made some effort, and anyway he knows we will not give on this.

Tl:dr ramble- no need to kick them while they are burning their house down.

The big question is whether there really was any genuine discussions between Johnson and Varadkar? There's not much to discuss untill there is a UK government that can pass a deal in Westminster? I'm not sure what Johnson 'got' from this exercise other than another kicking.

Disagree entirely.

The references were well received across the way.

Your reading too much into it. Sensible talk is all it came across as.

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly, especially as she was the daughter of Zeus. Interestingly, she was somewhat of an immaculate conception as she grew out of Zeus's head and had no mother. Which makes her very powerful. But we veer off topic.

Ah, one of the Cork Athena's so.

Professor Moriarty

J Mysterio wrote: »

As much as I enjoyed that (and there is something satisfying in it), I can see how it might enrage some people unnecessarily. It could perhaps appear to display an attitude that might be interpreted as being a little too 'smug' and cock-sure at the moment, with 'the weight of the EU behind us', and at this time of existential crisis for the UK.

Basically, It is a fine balance, and we should try to keep to the high ground so far as possible. We do of course have some moral righteousness through the weight of our history to power us in defending our interests RE the UK - and England in particular - but I prefer us to remain more magnanimous in an official capacity for these type of events, even in the face of such wreckless incompetence. The media were there to ask the tough questions.

So... be firm, tough, and stand our ground, but maybe invoking the Greek Gods and casting ourselves in an allegorical manner as the hero to save the UK is perhaps a little too much.

While Johnson was fairly shambolic in the event as per usual, it must be conceded that he did at least acknowledge - in Dublin - that Ireland did not want or ask for 'the Brexit conundrum'. This is something Coveney in particular has said repeatedly for the last few years - a core message, delivered. Despite everything, and as much as I hold Johnson in contempt, I feel he made some effort, and anyway he knows we will not give on this.

Tl:dr ramble- no need to kick them while they are burning their house down.

The big question is whether there really was any genuine discussions between Johnson and Varadkar? There's not much to discuss untill there is a UK government that can pass a deal in Westminster? I'm not sure what Johnson 'got' from this exercise other than another kicking.

Johnson smiled as Vradakar made the reference. I doubt if too much was read into it other than it being a bit of a gentle poke in the ribs. I wonder if he dashed over to run the NI only backstop past the Irish.

J Mysterio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson smiled as Vradakar made the reference. I doubt if too much was read into it other than it being a bit of a gentle poke in the ribs. I wonder if he dashed over to run the NI only backstop past the Irish.

To me, it was a grimace. I was imagining him saying to himself: 'oh, you bastard'. Haha.

J Mysterio

lawred2 wrote: »

What was this about?

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1171052439111442432

:D

I hadn't noticed that, it's incredible. That was a physical tic right there. Perhaps an unconscious stretch to relieve the stress/ tension/ pressure.

He looks quite ridiculous in that clip.

Spanish Eyes

CelticRambler wrote: »

A couple of "Chalk and cheese" observations, after the fun and games today:
(1) While there's many a boards.ie member (and undoubtedly many a propper-up of the bar in pubs around the country) who moan long and loud about Leo Varadkar's failure as a politician, the contrast between him and Boris Johnson in terms of statesmanliness this morning was impressive. Not having had a vote in Ireland for more than two decades, he's not really "my" Taoiseach, but watching the press conference from afar, I am proud to see my country's government led by someone who looks and acts like they belong on the world stage.
(2) Several hours after Johnson's amateur buffoonery in Dublin, John Bercow's "stepping down" speech was a very welcome dose of erudite oratory: a clear and waffle-free statement of what he was doing, when he'd do it, and how he'd come to his decision.

Strange as it may seem on the day when the "mother of all democracies" is shut down for no good reason, it's reassuring to know that politics is not rotten to the core: that there are still examples of quality to be found in the corridors and chambers of power.

Edit to acknowledge Spanish Eyes getting his/her post in while I was writing! Interesting use of the same vocabulary!

Glad you (and others to be fair) think the same thing!

At times like this I think we need to ditch tribal/political allegiances and just back the person who is doing their best for us as a nation right now.

trellheim

Big Phil is a politician. Sabine Weyand.... though.. she scares me ... I am very happy she is on our side

On a lighter note a tweet I saw just there made me chuckle

"well done to Boris Johnson taking the record as the PM for losing their first 5 votes in the house in a row, taking the award from the previous winner... Boris Johnson with four"

listermint

J Mysterio wrote: »

I hadn't noticed that, it's incredible. That was a physical tic right there. Perhaps an unconscious stretch to relieve the stress/ tension/ pressure.

He looks quite ridiculous in that clip.

Every bit of it done to death, he literally does these things to endear himself to people. Ahh he's just a funny lovable down to earth Chap.

Sure I'd do stuff like that on the spot.

Is what he tries to get followers and others to think.

J Mysterio

The press conference can be found here, in full:

https://twitter.com/UKMoments/status/1170982380603154433

beggars_bush

I enjoyed the classical Greek comment.

It turned Johnson's use of the language back on himself. He is usually the one being smug with his so called 'command' of greek and latin

It probably caused a lot of people to actually look up who Athena is/was

Interesting day in politics

10000maniacs

Nigel Dodds on Newsnight now, with his miserable head on. Don't mention the Irish Sea.

trellheim

Boris Johnson live in parliament now

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/912439c0-627c-4f85-a4ba-14c533a880dd

trying to drum up support for an early election

Water John

Trying to put his finger in the dam. Loud whispers of border in the Irish Sea.

Itssoeasy

It’s as clear as glass what Boris Johnson is doing. Trying to paint him as the great savior of the country.

Enzokk

trellheim wrote: »

Boris Johnson live in parliament now

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/912439c0-627c-4f85-a4ba-14c533a880dd

trying to drum up support for an early election

He is a clown, asking for an election that he didn't want only a week ago. That is all that needs to be said to him, why did he lie again?

Itssoeasy

What’s he doing with the mic ? It’s probably where it is because that’s the best way to hear.

Itssoeasy

He’s actual a bloody child.

Enzokk

Itssoeasy wrote: »

He’s actual a bloody child.

Childish games played by adults who doesn't have a care for their voters. He is trying to goad Labour into a vote. You just hope Corbyn doesn't fall into the trap.

Itssoeasy

He wouldn’t know a salient point if it bit him.

Degag

Johnson saying he will not ask for a delay. When you think it can't get anymore absurd!!

Imreoir2

Johnson openly promising to defy parliament and break the law requiring him to seek an extension. It is really astounding that a head of government would behave in such a way.

bilston

Johnson has just confirmed that he will not be asking for another delay.

Tell me how

Voted for a Parliament. Two years later. Let's try again.
Voted for the Withdrawal Agreement. Some months later. Let's try again.
Voted for the Withdrawal Agreement. Some weeks later. Let's try again.
Voted for the Withdrawal Agreement.
Voted on whether or not to have an early general election. Some days later. Lets try again.
Voted on whether or not to leave the European Union. Three years later. Are we sure we should do this? Let's try again. - Wait. You can't. That's undemocratic.

Imreoir2

I can't really see Johnson as the martyr to the cause type who is willing to spend time behind bars to prove a point, will he resign rather than comply with the law?

Itssoeasy

It’s a shame he’s stepping down as speaker. He’s doing his best to control this fancy crèche.