Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

JeffKenna

prawnsambo wrote: »

Bit cynical wrote: »

But then general elections are also snapshots of people's views on a particular day. Are they also undemocratic?

They're not snapshots in the same way as referendums. A GE is a vote for your representative in parliament. And you have the right to remove them at the next election.

Come on, by that logic a second referendum would also be undemocratic regardless of the result.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not paste music videos here. Post deleted.

Bit cynical

prawnsambo wrote: »

They're not snapshots in the same way as referendums. A GE is a vote for your representative in parliament. And you have the right to remove them at the next election.

That is true but no right before that. If an election is held and the sitting government loses they get out even though they don't agree with the result. For a period of time at least, the result of this decision based on one day's polling is expected to be implemented. You don't get the standing government saying that the people weren't properly informed and therefore another election will be held when they have had time to reconsider their opinion (Zimbabwe excepted).

It might be for the best that the UK does not leave the EU. Certainly it is for Ireland and we have a right to pursue our interests in the matter. But democracy has suffered in the UK if they end up revoking A50 or rerunning the referendum. All we can really say is that it is a price worth paying.

prawnsambo

JeffKenna wrote: »

Come on, by that logic a second referendum would also be undemocratic regardless of the result.

We're talking about UK style advisory referendums. They are not democratic because they don't have the built-in safeguards that a binding referendum has. Referendums should also have definable outcomes. It's hardly democratic to hold a referendum for essentially a blank cheque with no defined outcome and no path for elected representatives to follow. Hence the current mess.The only thing you could say was democratic about that one was that people could vote in it. Wholesale confusion is not democracy.

Naggdefy

The old Rabbie Burns song 'Parcel of Rogues in a Nation' about the Scots nobles who sold out to England for unification in 1707 has very appropriate lyrics for the Brexit mess. Only applied to the English mostly this time.


'Oh would or I had seen the day
That treason thus could sell us
My old gray head had line in clay
With bruise and loyal wallus
But pith and par, till my last hour
I'll make this declaration
That we're bought and we're sold for English Gold
Such a Parcel of Rogues In a nation'

jimmycrackcorm

dublinjock wrote: »

.

Then we had a general election with both the main parties telling us they would deliver brexit and do as the people had instructed.
All i am able to do is vote to change things, now it seems that what i was told is true.
"If democracy was to change anything then it would be got rid of"

I really do worry about the state of Democracy in the EU, hence i voted to leave. Now im worried about Democracy in the UK and house of commons.

Isn't it interesting though how EU countries like Ireland have so much say in the European Union compared to NI and Scotland in the British Union...

dublinjock

VinLieger wrote: »

Can you give me examples of why you dislike the way the EU is run and how you see it as being undemocratic?


Also the real reason or problem with the UK being undemocratic is due to FPTP coupled with the unwritten constitution.

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

Who votes for the commissioners?

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.


You might be correct about the UK being undemocratic this is something that im really starting to learn and to be honest its frighting.

Seth Brundle

theguzman wrote: »

From my own reading of the current situation would it be fair to say that a No Deal Brexit is now off the table? Or can Boris Ignore the motion passed and plough on breaking the law?

No deal is the default exit and will happen if the UK take no action before 11pm on Oct 31st such as revoke, request and receive an extension or accept the WA.
The recent vote within Westminster to prevent a no-deal exit does not stop a no-deal exit. It is an internal Uk law and has nothing to do with the EU.

theguzman wrote: »

I can't see why the Conservatives don't just jettison off Northern Ireland and agree to a Northern Ireland only backstop, keeping NI in the Customs Union and thus avoiding the need for a hard border. This would effectively create a border down the Irish sea, I am baffled that Boris hasn't secretly reached out to Jeremy Corbyn and let them jointly pass this motion before dissolving Parliament.

So "taking back control" means to give away part of their Union?

theguzman wrote: »

The whole thing is mind boggling or does the default hard brexit seem more likely. The Northern Ireland backstop would effectively create a hard brexit for the mainland UK anyway if I read it correctly. Boris lost his majority so why he doesn't dump the DUP and reach out on a cross party basis to get Brexit done.

To be honest, nobody knows what will happen with Boris and Cummings pulling the strings.
As for the DUP, maybe Boris will need them, possibly after a general election, and so doesn't want to burn his bridges?

Seth Brundle

dublinjock wrote: »

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

Who votes for the commissioners?

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.


You might be correct about the UK being undemocratic this is something that im really starting to learn and to be honest its frighting.

Pardon?
Are these genuine questions

54and56

MarinersBlues wrote: »

It would be very interesting to see the breakdown of those answers for the
50% who don't indentify as Nationalist or Unionist.

The increase from those identifying as neither nationalist or unionist corresponds with the period of the GFA which de-polarised NI and has allowed people to get out of their narrow silo's.

Brexit and in particular a no deal Brexit will have the opposite effect and could re-polarise NI to the detriment of NI, RoI and GB who will end up picking up a lot of the financial and political cost.

Strazdas

dublinjock wrote: »

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

Who votes for the commissioners?

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.


You might be correct about the UK being undemocratic this is something that im really starting to learn and to be honest its frighting.

If anyone is destabilising democracy in the UK, it's Johnson and Cummings. They're hinting they won't let anyone get in their way and are answerable to nobody : not even Parliament and the judiciary.

dublinjock

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Isn't it interesting though how EU countries like Ireland have so much say in the European Union compared to NI and Scotland in the British Union...

Yes Ireland does have a bigger say, i would be in favour of a referendum on each of the home countries having independence. But whats the point of a referendum if its not upheld, or worse still some are and some are not.

DOCARCH

dublinjock wrote: »

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.

You can only vote for you constituency candidate(s).....from there on it's out of your hands! Who is PM is not a choice of 'the people'.

First Up

dublinjock wrote:

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

Vote for politicians who want to get rid of the EU. If enough people vote the same way as you, then they might get elected.

dublinjock wrote:

Who votes for the commissioners?

The people who the most people vote for.

briany

54and56 wrote: »

Brexit and in particular a no deal Brexit will have the opposite effect and could re-polarise NI to the detriment of NI, RoI and GB who will end up picking up a lot of the financial and political cost.

The average no-deal Brexiteer doesn't care about this. To them, the GFA is a red herring being waved by the EU to thwart Brexit. They don't have any interest in the consequences of a hard border except to say that it's a perfectly acceptable price to pay, if they even defined it as a price. They don't believe it will have any effect.

Zubeneschamali

dublinjock wrote: »

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

You already did, and the EU has already accepted it, agreed a Withdrawal Agreement with the UK Government, all done and dusted ready for last March.

You would have been out of the EU for 6 months by now if your own Government had not requested two extensions. They are about to request another.

Perhaps your problem was never with the EU?

Bit cynical

JeffKenna wrote: »

Come on, by that logic a second referendum would also be undemocratic regardless of the result.

Rerunning a referendum is unsatisfactory from a democratic point of view, yes. Not the only perspective; there are other considerations. But from the perspective of democracy, problematic I think.

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

The same way you vote to get rid of your golf club.

dublinjock wrote: »

Who votes for the commissioners?

The MEPs you voted for. You know, Nigel and the boys.

dublinjock wrote: »

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.

Can you? Can you really? Have you heard of 'safe seats'. There are over 200 of them in the HoC. Check your constituency and see can you really vote out the incumbent Tory there (if that's the case in your constituency)

dublinjock wrote: »

You might be correct about the UK being undemocratic this is something that im really starting to learn and to be honest its frighting.

I think you are finding out how representative politics works tbh. You vote for an MP and they act as your representative in the HoC. Your representative, not your delegate. Their job is to look after your interests and the national interest. Not to jump every way you want them to on any particular issue.

dublinjock

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Pardon?
Are these genuine questions

So i take it im not able to vote for either?

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

How to i vote to get rid of EU?

Who votes for the commissioners?

I mean i dont like Boris Johnson or the tories so i can vote to change him to someone else when we have a general election.


You might be correct about the UK being undemocratic this is something that im really starting to learn and to be honest its frighting.

I mean if your serious with these questions, which by the way don't really seem to have anything to do with you saying the EU is undemocratic or you having problems with how it is run. If anything they show a complete and utter misunderstanding of the EU or the entire brexit debacle.

To get rid of the EU? do you mean to kill it entirely? If so then id also ask how to you vote to get rid of the UK?

If its how do you leave the EU? Then your government submits a letter under article 50 and understands how that process works and realistically what is possible/not possible in its specific circumstances or what it even wants to achieve in its negotiations for leaving.

The UK did submit article 50 letter but then had no idea what it wanted to do next when confronted with the reality that leaving isnt as simply as walking out the door for various logical reasons.

You want to vote for commissioners? Do you understand what commissioners are or do? Do you also want to vote for UK civil servants? Because thats effectively what you are asking to do.

dublinjock

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You already did, and the EU has already accepted it, agreed a Withdrawal Agreement with the UK Government, all done and dusted ready for last March.

You would have been out of the EU for 6 months by now if your own Government had not requested two extensions. They are about to request another.

Perhaps your problem was never with the EU?

I did vote yes thats correct.
The leave vote won.
The house of commons dont want to leave the EU. They are a total disgrace and as i have said im learning that the saying i was told is so true.

trellheim

You can vote for the EU Parliament. (tick).

The Commission is not elected. (aww, theres one commissioner for each member state, Irish Govt gets to pick). If it was like the Eurovision voting the eastern europeans would get everything.

European Council - not elected directly its all the heads of state ( Taoiseach's on it ) - I'm happy with that. (tick)


President of the European Council - picked by the heads of state ( see Eurovision voting above )

Theres quite a bit of safety built into the current system for Ireland. I would also note that enfranchising something ( giving it the vote) - takes some power away from where it is at the moment.

anyway slightly ot

Bit cynical

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You already did, and the EU has already accepted it, agreed a Withdrawal Agreement with the UK Government, all done and dusted ready for last March.

You would have been out of the EU for 6 months by now if your own Government had not requested two extensions. They are about to request another.

Perhaps your problem was never with the EU?

I don't want to intrude on the poster's line of questioning but I don't think that was the point of his question.

Most of the discussion on this forum doesn't treat the UK as a black box. We are very involved with the intricacies of UK government, parliamentary procedure and the like and the various personalities.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I did vote yes thats correct.
The leave vote won.
The house of commons dont want to leave the EU. They are a total disgrace and as i have said im learning that the saying i was told is so true.

Do you think you should leave with no deal, the negotiated WA, a norway deal , a canada deal, a + style deal of either of the previous two options, stay in the SM, stay in the CU, end free movement, allow a NI backstop or make it a complete UK backstop?


Is "leave" or "remain" a reasonable question to ask when considering all of the above options that are still not all of the ones available or anything close to all the questions that need to be answered.

johnnyskeleton

dublinjock wrote: »

What a total mess brexit has become.
I was asked to vote in a referendum and i did, i voted to leave the EU and i have to admit i was a little surprised when the leave vote won.

Then we had a general election with both the main parties telling us they would deliver brexit and do as the people had instructed.
All i am able to do is vote to change things, now it seems that what i was told is true.
"If democracy was to change anything then it would be got rid of"

I really do worry about the state of Democracy in the EU, hence i voted to leave. Now im worried about Democracy in the UK and house of commons.

With respect, what you are looking for is not democracy, but a less complicated and nuanced world.

Democracy in the EU is just fine. 27 of the 28 EU member states have functioning parliamentary democracies that co-operate with each other.

As for the 28th, while it may seem like its not functioning at the moment, in reality it is grappling with the difficult problem of trying to appease three irreconcilable groups of people (hard leavers, soft leavers and remainers), no two of which can agree. Its problems are compounded by the first past the post electoral system that only works when there are two clear main parties to vote for, based on clear policy differences. Thats what has broken down, not UK democracy

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

The house of commons dont want to leave the EU. They are a total disgrace and as i have said im learning that the saying i was told is so true.

The HoC can't make up their minds how the UK is to leave. The instruction in the referendum result didn't specify it. So that means that it is up to the HoC to decide how and they can't. It's as simple as that.

Zubeneschamali

dublinjock wrote: »

I did vote yes thats correct.
The leave vote won.
The house of commons dont want to leave the EU. They are a total disgrace and as i have said im learning that the saying i was told is so true.

Well, yes, but you said "How do I vote to get rid of the EU?" as if that was some sort of problem with democracy in the EU. But in fact, you voted to leave and the EU said "Okey dokey, there's the door". No problem at all voting leave and the EU is not stopping you.

The problem you have identified is a problem in London, not Brussels, so why bring it up when someone asks what is wrong with EU democracy?

briany

The 2016 referendum was the equivalent of a fairly simple musical lead sheet that the politicians and public of the UK have been improvising increasingly complex and daring jazz solos around.

In or out of the EU. Seems like a simple enough question. The problem is that Leave and Remain literally cannot even agree on what the EU is. You cannot hold a constructive argument unless each side has some common truths to work from.

dublinjock

VinLieger wrote: »

I mean if your serious with these questions, which by the way don't really seem to have anything to do with you saying the EU is undemocratic or you having problems with how it is run. If anything they show a complete and utter misunderstanding of the EU or the entire brexit debacle.

To get rid of the EU? do you mean to kill it entirely? If so then id also ask how to you vote to get rid of the UK?

If its how do you leave the EU? Then your government submits a letter under article 50 and understands how that process works and realistically what is possible/not possible in its specific circumstances or what it even wants to achieve in its negotiations for leaving.

The UK did submit article 50 letter but then had no idea what it wanted to do next when confronted with the reality that leaving isnt as simply as walking out the door for various logical reasons.

You want to vote for commissioners? Do you understand what commissioners are or do? Do you also want to vote for UK civil servants? Because thats effectively what you are asking to do.

I agree the reality of leaving isnt simple its a nightmare.



So im correct im not able to vote for the commiionersss who in turn vote for the EU President.
So who would the commissioners be accountable to?
These are genuine questions because its only the last few years i have started to read up learn about the EU and what it does.

trellheim

As BC said we are kind of wrapped up here in minutia.

to Dublinjock

Conservatives AND Labour's stated position is to LEAVE. Libdems and SNP are Remain.

Now it gets difficult.

Nobody knows what Leave means. This is what has caused all the fuss for THREE YEARS . There is a majority in the House of Commons to resolve this issue by postponing (not cancelling ) leave, running a much more detailed referendum with exact choices for people to vote on and then implementing the result of a second referendum.

The most likely outcome right now if this does not happen is an extremely damaging no-deal exit.

And if you think it will all stop after a no-deal I have news because the very first thing after a no-deal will be mini deals 1,2,3,4 with the EU


With regard to european commissioners and their accountability, 4.5 seconds googling finds

The president of the Commission leads a cabinet of Commissioners, referred to as the college, collectively accountable to the European Parliament.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_European_Commission