Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

fash

dublinjock wrote: »

All them questions was not part of the referendum and i would not be qualified to answer them.
As for Nortnern Ireland i hope that the UK and Irish govemments stick to there word about being no border. If both stick to this then there be no border.
As for ramifications i dont know, leaving is going to be a big change and there be winners and losers.

First question: if I take a gun, wrap your hand around it, put the gun in your mouth then squeeze your finger while you struggled to stop me, would you have committed suicide?

Now having answered that question, in the entire history of the world there has only been one place where borders have been done away with: the EU and did so by means of the single market. The first person who comes up with an alternative will have a solution which achieves the same will be the wealthiest person in the history of the world and undoubtedly have developed entire new areas of maths and physics - if such exists.

So I find your statement that both Ireland and the UK need to" stick to there [sic] word about being no border. If both stick to this then there be no border." insulting. There is only 1 solution which can prevent no border: NI staying in regulatory alignment. The UK refuses to do so.
If the UK sticks a gun in Ireland's mouth and pulls the trigger, it is not Ireland committing suicide, it is an act of murder from the UK. For you to say "stop sticking a gun in your mouth, stop sticking a gun in your mouth" or "I hope Ireland keeps its word not to install a hard border" is beyond insulting.

Do you realise that?

dublinjock

VinLieger wrote: »

Because shes the first minister of the Scottish parliament at Holyrood to which she was elected to as a MSP.........

You are seriously uninformed about the institutions of the United Kingdom and even though you keep saying you think the EU is undemocratic you havent yet managed to give a good example of how

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

dublinjock

listermint wrote: »

It does though, you've spent the last ten pages trying to inform yourself


At least admit that. Because all the questions are fine, but it means you aren't informed and are trying to be

Ok that's your view and your permitted to have it.
We just don't agree.

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

Well if you're trying to prove you're uninformed, you're failing miserably. And all people have to do is go back over the last few pages where you had basic facts about the EU explained to you and where you couldn't distinguish between the customs union and the single market.

I don't know about anyone else, but I won't be wasting any more of my time on this.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

Well that excuse makes no sense, you forgot the first minister of Scotland had been elected as an MSP? Especially since unlike the PM of the UK the First Minister of Scotland very much is also required to be an MSP. Again the only conclusion to draw is you are uninformed about what you are trying to discuss



What do commissioners do that you believe requires them to be elected by the entire population of Europe?
What does the President of the commission do that you believe requires them to be elected by the entire population of Europe?

DOCARCH

dublinjock wrote: »

The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.

Nominated by elected representatives from each country.

dublinjock wrote: »

The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

There was more than one candidate.

A Shropshire Lad

Enzokk wrote: »

They are closing all parliamentary business, so the committee's are closed as well. Today Paypal was supposed to give evidence and obviously hasn't. The PM was also supposed to appear and be questioned and he has dodged that. Parliament is more than just PM's questions and votes.





.

But surely thats the case everytime a Parliament has ended and is waiting for a new one.


All the outrage is mainly about not having time to debate Brexit, which is all they do and agree on nothing.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Post with insults (and response) deleted.

Bit cynical

DOCARCH wrote: »

There was more than one candidate.

No I think dublinjock is correct here. What I think may be confusing is that presidential debates were held prior to the election with the idea that people would choose their MEP with view that they were also supporting the lead candidate ("spitzenkandidat") of the party of the MEP. This is how the prime minister is elected in some national parliamentary systems.

But none of those taking part in the presidential debates were selected in the end to be put before the parliament.

dublinjock

fash wrote: »

First question: if I take a gun, wrap your hand around it, put the gun in your mouth then squeeze your finger while you struggled to stop me, would you have committed suicide?

Now having answered that question, in the entire history of the world there has only been one place where borders have been done away with: the EU and did so by means of the single market. The first person who comes up with an alternative will have a solution which achieves the same will be the wealthiest person in the history of the world and undoubtedly have developed entire new areas of maths and physics - if such exists.

So I find your statement that both Ireland and the UK need to" stick to there [sic] word about being no border. If both stick to this then there be no border." insulting. There is only 1 solution which can prevent no border: NI staying in regulatory alignment. The UK refuses to do so.
If the UK sticks a gun in Ireland's mouth and pulls the trigger, it is not Ireland committing suicide, it is an act of murder from the UK. For you to say "stop sticking a gun in your mouth, stop sticking a gun in your mouth" or "I hope Ireland keeps its word not to install a hard border" is beyond insulting.

Do you realise that?

My intention was not to insult you.
If this was the case then accept my apology.

dublinjock

VinLieger wrote: »

Well that excuse makes no sense, you forgot the first minister of Scotland had been elected as an MSP? Especially since unlike the PM of the UK the First Minister of Scotland very much is also required to be an MSP. Again the only conclusion to draw is you are uninformed about what you are trying to discuss



What do commissioners do that you believe requires them to be elected by the entire population of Europe?
What does the President of the commission do that you believe requires them to be elected by the entire population of Europe?

I was asked for examples i gave them.

Call me Al

dublinjock wrote: »

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

If we were electing each individual commissioner by a "one eu citizen one vote" process with a voting pool of hundreds of millions of people how many commissioners do you think would be elected from eg Ireland, or say Croatia or any of the other small nations that are in the EU?

And she wasn't the only nominee.

johnnyskeleton

dublinjock wrote: »

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

You mean the President of the EU Commission, rather than the EU President?

Because, by its very nature of being an international body, there is no president of the EU.

The problem with the Brexit criticisms of the EU structures is that they claim that its a Federal State in disguise and then claim its not democratic. But of course it is not a Federal State. If it were, then its president would be democratically elected, democracy being a key cornerstone of EU beliefs and central to the requirements of any State joining. But it isnt, therefore it doesnt have a President that needs to be elected.

prawnsambo

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

But surely thats the case everytime a Parliament has ended and is waiting for a new one.

All the outrage is mainly about not having time to debate Brexit, which is all they do and agree on nothing.

Nope. Hasn't been prorogued for this long in decades. Normally it's a few days. Conference season it's suspended, which is carried out (a) by a vote and (b) allows committees continue to sit as well as the HoL to allow for the passage of legislation. Which is what the Houses of parliament are for. Not just brexit debate. But that's clearly an issue too. And the real reason of course.

fash

dublinjock wrote: »

My intention was not to insult you.
If this was the case then accept my apology.

I would prefer is you would understand what was logically wrong with what you said.
Do you accept that what you said is logically incorrect?

Infini

dublinjock wrote: »

All them questions was not part of the referendum and i would not be qualified to answer them.

Let me be blunt: its a poor excuse. If your asked a question like this the first thing to do is understand what your being asked and 2nd is why your being asked. Those details your saying your unqualified to answer are the reason why this referendum shouldnt have happened: Your being told to make a decision without any idea of the DETAILS of what leaving would mean. Its the same as signing a contract without reading the fine print. Thats why parliment has been deadlocked they cant get a plan through with enough support because it means losing too much for some. Its also why Remain should just happen because brexit is a lie with no positive way foward and staying is the least damaging path foward not leaving and certainly not leaving in the most damaging and corrosive manner possible.

dublinjock wrote: »

As for Nortnern Ireland i hope that the UK and Irish govemments stick to there word about being no border. If both stick to this then there be no border.

The only way theres no border is if 1) The UK remains 2) The WA including backtop is accepted or 3) A border poll in favour of reunification occurs after Brexit. If theres no deal it becomes a hard border with all the consequences of it occuring and its purely because of the UK, noone on the EU side incuding us wants this but the UK and their leaving forces the issue and our side has little option but to limit the damage in the abscence of responsible goverment in the UK.

dublinjock wrote: »

As for ramifications i dont know, leaving is going to be a big change and there be winners and losers.

The only "Winners" are the parasites and lowlives like Farage and Moggles who enginnered this purely for their own financial benefit, everyone else loses that would include yourself living there as benefits and rights are eroded away. This whole fiasco is a scam plain and simple.

Calina

dublinjock wrote: »

No im not misinformed i had for got she was now MSP for Glasgow.

Examples
The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners.
The EU President is elected by the European Parliament, however I believe she was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

The President of the European Commission, not the EU President. I also pointed out the role was more akin to a chairperson than a Head of State.

The individual commissioners are nominated by the 27 member state governments. We are down one atm as the UK has not nominated one in line with its current expectation of not being a member on 1 November.

As for forgetting Nicola Sturgeon was an elected MSP, if you are resident in Scotland that is worrying.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I was asked for examples i gave them.

Yet you are unable to explain why you believe they are undemocratic.


Is it the title president you are getting hung up on?


Are you aware there are 7 different jobs within the EU with the title of president?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union

Enzokk

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

But surely thats the case everytime a Parliament has ended and is waiting for a new one.


All the outrage is mainly about not having time to debate Brexit, which is all they do and agree on nothing.

Yes, but a lot less time than this one (usually 3-7 days). The longest one before this was in 2014 but it included time for the European Elections and was only 14 days long.

Also the argument that parliament would have been in recess in any case for the conferences is spurious, parliament has a say in recess and the length of time of the recess. Also the whole of parliament is now suspended, all committees and also the House of Lords whereas in a recess only the HoC would be away.

dublinjock

Infini wrote: »

Let me be blunt: its a poor excuse. If your asked a question like this the first thing to do is understand what your being asked and 2nd is why your being asked. Those details your saying your unqualified to answer are the reason why this referendum shouldnt have happened: Your being told to make a decision without any idea of the DETAILS of what leaving would mean. Its the same as signing a contract without reading the fine print. Thats why parliment has been deadlocked they cant get a plan through with enough support because it means losing too much for some. Its also why Remain should just happen because brexit is a lie with no positive way foward and staying is the least damaging path foward not leaving and certainly not leaving in the most damaging and corrosive manner possible.



The only way theres no border is if 1) The UK remains 2) The WA including backtop is accepted or 3) A border poll in favour of reunification occurs after Brexit. If theres no deal it becomes a hard border with all the consequences of it occuring and its purely because of the UK, noone on the EU side incuding us wants this but the UK and their leaving forces the issue and our side has little option but to limit the damage in the abscence of responsible goverment in the UK.



The only "Winners" are the parasites and lowlives like Farage and Moggles who enginnered this purely for their own financial benefit, everyone else loses that would include yourself living there as benefits and rights are eroded away. This whole fiasco is a scam plain and simple.

The real winners are yet to be shown, if the UK dont brexit what will come out of the ashes is a large proportion of England becoming nationalist in view. That chancer Farage is the least to worry about. You would want to worry about who is behind him.

dublinjock

Calina wrote: »

The President of the European Commission, not the EU President. I also pointed out the role was more akin to a chairperson than a Head of State.

The individual commissioners are nominated by the 27 member state governments. We are down one atm as the UK has not nominated one in line with its current expectation of not being a member on 1 November.

As for forgetting Nicola Sturgeon was an elected MSP, if you are resident in Scotland that is worrying.

Points taken.

dublinjock

Calina wrote: »

The President of the European Commission, not the EU President. I also pointed out the role was more akin to a chairperson than a Head of State.

The individual commissioners are nominated by the 27 member state governments. We are down one atm as the UK has not nominated one in line with its current expectation of not being a member on 1 November.

As for forgetting Nicola Sturgeon was an elected MSP, if you are resident in Scotland that is worrying.

As forgetting Nicola well yes its not good i know.
No i live in Ireland.

Seth Brundle

dublinjock wrote: »

All them questions was not part of the referendum and i would not be qualified to answer them.
As for Nortnern Ireland i hope that the UK and Irish govemments stick to there word about being no border. If both stick to this then there be no border.
As for ramifications i dont know, leaving is going to be a big change and there be winners and losers.

The questions that I put to you are now the outcome of Brexit. If you are not qualified to answer them then why on earth did you choose to change from the status quo by voting leave?
As for NI and the two governments, there is only one government forcing the introduction of a border. However, Ireland has never said that it would not protect its trade as a member of the EU. In fact Ireland has maintained a consistent position in terms of the border - it does not want one but should one be imposed by the UK leaving the EU then Ireland and the EU will defend the union. The idea that there won't be one despite different regulatory areas is childish nonsense and shows the level of immaturity by the UK in its defence of the Brexit scam.
The UK is the one diverging. Only the UK!
And it is not doing it for the benefit of it's citizens. There will be very few winners and they are all already very wealthy.
The vast majority of UK citizens will lose out. In addition, you are likely seeing the final days of the UK as you know it!

Enzokk

dublinjock wrote: »

The real winners are yet to be shown, if the UK dont brexit what will come out of the ashes is a large proportion of England becoming nationalist in view. That chancer Farage is the least to worry about. You would want to worry about who is behind him.

No, the winners has been shown and they are the hedge funds that bet against Remain in 2016 and the likes of Farage who has been kept in the news and collected donations for his company.

How Crispin Odey funded Brexit and then bet on the UK's economic downfall

After the referendum he was reported to have made $300m at his fund, and told the BBC of his success: “There’s that Italian expression, ‘Al mattino ha l’oro in bocca’ — the morning has gold in its mouth.”

A Dub in Glasgo

dublinjock wrote: »

Im finding it all bizarre to be honest. The UK house of commons has proved to be undemocratic. Im still the same on the EU being undemocratic.

You can vote through the post or by proxy, get someone to do this for you. If you google it your find its quite easy to do.

But i dont think voting will change anything.

So you actually think I (or any member of the public) can vote for the members of the UK upper house? clucking bell!

A Dub in Glasgo

dublinjock wrote: »

Yes im aware the PM does not have to be an MP. This is wrong totally wrong.
In Scotalnd our first minister is not an MP Nicola Sturgeon.

She is elected to the Scottish Parliament (MSP)

Bit cynical

Bit of good news is that No. 10 has rejected a call from Farage's Brexit Party to form a pact in an upcoming election thereby assuring a large Brexit majority.

Farage of course could still be sneaky and poach mainly Labour votes in Labour brexit voting constituencies.

dublinjock

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The questions that I put to you are now the outcome of Brexit. If you are not qualified to answer them then why on earth did you choose to change from the status quo by voting leave?
As for NI and the two governments, there is only one government forcing the introduction of a border. However, Ireland has never said that it would not protect its trade as a member of the EU. In fact Ireland has maintained a consistent position in terms of the border - it does not want one but should one be imposed by the UK leaving the EU then Ireland and the EU will defend the union. The idea that there won't be one despite different regulatory areas is childish nonsense and shows the level of immaturity by the UK in its defence of the Brexit scam.
The UK is the one diverging. Only the UK!
And it is not doing it for the benefit of it's citizens. There will be very few winners and they are all already very wealthy.
The vast majority of UK citizens will lose out. In addition, you are likely seeing the final days of the UK as you know it!

I told you why i voted to leave, you dont accept or agree with it so lets leave it at that.
I wouldn't mind independence from London/UK. I voted to leave the UK as well as the EU. But if i was to bet my money would be on Scotland staying in the UK. But maybe Brexit will give us our independence from the UK.

dublinjock

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

So you actually think I (or any member of the public) can vote for the members of the UK upper house? clucking bell!

Sorry i thought you was talking about voting in the UK general election from Ireland. Your clucking bell was well deserved.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I told you why i voted to leave, you dont accept or agree with it so lets leave it at that.
I wouldn't mind independence from London/UK. I voted to leave the UK as well as the EU. But if i was to bet my money would be on Scotland staying in the UK. But maybe Brexit will give us our independence from the UK.

Beyond the incredibly broad and objectively inaccurate reason of the EU being undemocratic why else do you want to leave it may I ask?