Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

BonnieSituation

dublinjock wrote: »

I don't have the same view as you, just because i don't agree with you does not mean im uninformed.

You're incredibly uninformed. And you are not adding very much here except circular arguments. It would serve you better to go onto Wikipedia than use this thread to inform yourself of the politics of the country you apparently reside in.

A Dub in Glasgo

dublinjock wrote: »

Its the same for the Irish they can do the same in the UK.
The common travel area does not class you as an Immigrant.

Irish citizens who have emigrated cannot vote in elections in Ireland. As an Irish citizen in the UK, I can vote in UK elections and I voted SNP in all elections since about 2004, Yes in 2014 and Remain in 2016

dublinjock

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Id be curious to know who your MP was and what they campaigned for. Not their specific name or constituency, as this is an anonymous forum, but some detail about them e.g.

1. Tory, campaigned for Brexit, voted for deal, still a member of the party and now backs no deal
2. Labour, backed remain but changed to leave after the refendum and ran on a policy of a deal but not the Tory deal. Voted against the May deal twice but for it in the "meaningful vote"
3. Lib Dem, ran on pledge of second ref etc

I ask this because if they campaigned on

The reason I ask is that your TD represents not just you but all of your constituents, and if youre not happy with what they stand for you can tell them, seek to have them recalled or vote against them in the next election.

Then, looking at what they ran on, how have they voted? If they ran on no deal and have voted against the deal that is in keeping with their pledges. The troble is that the other public representatives have been selected because they oppose no deal or the Tory deal. Hence the politicial crisis.

Until there is a clear majority amongst the British people of no deal, leave with deal or remain, or alternatively that the leave with deal people can back either no deal or remain as the least worst option, then its hardly surprising that the politicians are reflecting this inability to reach a majority on any course of action

Im in a difficult sitiation here. My local MP wants another referendum on Sottish independance but also wants to be in the EU. Yet he champions state aid something the EU dont.
I dont see the point of another referendum whenthe fist was not upheld. My view on democracy is not good at the moment.

If i was asked does voting change anything my answer would be no.


A majority was reached to brexit yet the MPS dont want to brexit. At the time deal no deal was not discussed only after the fact.

Dyr

Is it just me or has the BBC ran a headline that the government refused to release Yellowhammer when they actually have?

dublinjock

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Irish citizens who have emigrated cannot vote in elections in Ireland. As an Irish citizen in the UK, I can vote in UK elections and I voted SNP in all elections since about 2004, Yes in 2014 and Remain in 2016

I can and have voted im a British Citzen
.

VinLieger

Bambi wrote: »

Is it just me or has the BBC ran a headline that the government refused to release Yellowhammer when they actually have?

Well this morning Andrea Leadsom said they wouldnt be releasing it, are you talking about a recent story or one from much earlier today?

woohoo!!!

Bambi wrote: »

Is it just me or has the BBC ran a headline that the government refused to release Yellowhammer when they actually have?

Seems they reconsidered.

J Mysterio

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Lord Ashcroft poll on NI - 51% would vote for a united Ireland, 55% would rather remain in the EU than the UK, and 60% support the backstop:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/

This the most fascinating finding for me:



Unionists have a death wish seemingly.

Itssoeasy

Bambi wrote: »

Is it just me or has the BBC ran a headline that the government refused to release Yellowhammer when they actually have?

Well it was only five pages with a sixth page that was blank. I mean I'd have expected something a bit more detailed than what was released. Five pages for something potentially damaging in many ways ? Maybe the BBC knows if stuff wasnt released ?

fr336

Anyone noticed there's no mention of Northern Ireland in Yellowhammer? That could be worrying, or being the British govt NI probably just slipped their mind.

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1171861256879464448

So, will this still be classed as Project Fear I wonder?

Itssoeasy

fr336 wrote: »

Anyone noticed there's no mention of Northern Ireland in Yellowhammer? That could be worrying, or being the British govt NI probably just slipped their mind.

It is mentioned but very briefly. They talk about the border in Ireland.

VinLieger

fr336 wrote: »

Anyone noticed there's no mention of Northern Ireland in Yellowhammer? That could be worrying, or being the British govt NI probably just slipped their mind.

Its mentioned in the section on power due to the probable dissolution of the single energy market that will upend the norths power supply

Call me Al

fr336 wrote: »

Anyone noticed there's no mention of Northern Ireland in Yellowhammer? That could be worrying, or being the British govt NI probably just slipped their mind.

Its section 18 under Official Sensitive.

fr336

Food supply - at risk.

Medicine supply - at risk.

Water supply - at risk.

National security - at risk.

Domestic security - at risk.

Economy - ready to implode if any of this comes to pass.

Does this sound like a government worthy of office?

Forty Seven

dublinjock wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The questions that I put to you are now the outcome of Brexit. If you are not qualified to answer them then why on earth did you choose to change from the status quo by voting leave?
As for NI and the two governments, there is only one government forcing the introduction of a border. However, Ireland has never said that it would not protect its trade as a member of the EU. In fact Ireland has maintained a consistent position in terms of the border - it does not want one but should one be imposed by the UK leaving the EU then Ireland and the EU will defend the union. The idea that there won't be one despite different regulatory areas is childish nonsense and shows the level of immaturity by the UK in its defence of the Brexit scam.
The UK is the one diverging. Only the UK!
And it is not doing it for the benefit of it's citizens. There will be very few winners and they are all already very wealthy.
The vast majority of UK citizens will lose out. In addition, you are likely seeing the final days of the UK as you know it!

I told you why i voted to leave, you dont accept or agree with it so lets leave it at that.
I wouldn't mind independence from London/UK. I voted to leave the UK as well as the EU. But if i was to bet my money would be on Scotland staying in the UK. But maybe Brexit will give us our independence from the UK.

Can I ask why you voted for Scottish independence?

dublinjock

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're incredibly uninformed. And you are not adding very much here except circular arguments. It would serve you better to go onto Wikipedia than use this thread to inform yourself of the politics of the country you apparently reside in.

No my view is incredibly differernt to your view.
Im well aware of the politics of the country i reside in.

SeaBreezes

YellowHammer that's it?


Just another version of, trust us, we have a cunning plan... Baldrick would have a better plan!

johnnyskeleton

dublinjock wrote: »

Im in a difficult sitiation here. My local MP wants another referendum on Sottish independance but also wants to be in the EU. Yet he champions state aid something the EU dont.

Ok, but if he doesnt represent your views, maybe you could vote for the Scottish Conservative Party?

I dont see the point of another referendum whenthe fist was not upheld. My view on democracy is not good at the moment.

It is being upheld and the UK is leaving the EU. But its a lot more complicated than was originally envisioned by the Leave Campaign, who are split between those who want to leave in an orderly way on a deal ans those who want absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Those two groups cant agree on how to proceed, and they only represent just above half of the UK population.

The politicians are trying to deliver on your vote, but they are finding it hard to establish what you wanted them to do when you voted leave. Perhaps it should have been clarified before they left, but thats neither here nor there.

The suggestions of a new referendum is that they will ask you exactly what you wanted. They might also ask you whether, having now seen the damage that leaving the UK will do without much noticable benefit, you have changed youe mind in the last three years, as polls suggest may be the case across the UK.

So a further vote is further clarifying to your politicial representatives what exactly you want, and whether, given that the negotiations havent gone as well as the leave side promised, you still want to go ahead with it.

I dont see anything objectionable or undemocratic in any of that

If i was asked does voting change anything my answer would be no.

Do you really believe that? Voting leave has caused the last three years worth of Brexit discussions. That stems exactly from the fact that people voted leave.

Similarly, if you knew that if a poll was taken tomorrow, 70% of people would vote for X e.g. no deal, or May deal, etc, do you really think that the politicians would not honour that?

I must respectfully suggest that you do believe voting can change things, but you realise that Brexit is an intractable and divisive problem that has no clear mandate for any set course of action, and thats the real problem.

A majority was reached to brexit yet the MPS dont want to brexit. At the time deal no deal was not discussed only after the fact.

Again, you have to recognise that it isnt as simple as "to brexit or not to brexit". A lot of the most ardent leave campaigners have voted against the agreement to leave the EU, because they specifically reject any form of deal. If the ERG, DUP and Brexit party were gone, Im sure Westminster would agree a deal in the morning*


*well, whichever morning they come back on

dublinjock

Forty Seven wrote: »

Can I ask why you voted for Scottish independence?

An independent Scotland would make decisions that reflected Scottish priorities.

Scotland could set its own welfare priorities

Scotland would not get dragged into illegal wars

Capt'n Midnight

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's why they're should not be a rerun.
Instead, a new referendum should ask specifically about preferred options.

To be really democratic, it should use STV.

But it must only list achievable options. No Unicorns.

So remain / WA / Hard brexit / Barniers diagram

WA could mean Irish sea border or full UK alignment so should sub options be listed ?

dublinjock

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Ok, but if he doesnt represent your views, maybe you could vote for the Scottish Conservative Party?



It is being upheld and the UK is leaving the EU. But its a lot more complicated than was originally envisioned by the Leave Campaign, who are split between those who want to leave in an orderly way on a deal ans those who want absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Those two groups cant agree on how to proceed, and they only represent just above half of the UK population.

The politicians are trying to deliver on your vote, but they are finding it hard to establish what you wanted them to do when you voted leave. Perhaps it should have been clarified before they left, but thats neither here nor there.

The suggestions of a new referendum is that they will ask you exactly what you wanted. They might also ask you whether, having now seen the damage that leaving the UK will do without much noticable benefit, you have changed youe mind in the last three years, as polls suggest may be the case across the UK.

So a further vote is further clarifying to your politicial representatives what exactly you want, and whether, given that the negotiations havent gone as well as the leave side promised, you still want to go ahead with it.

I dont see anything objectionable or undemocratic in any of that



Do you really believe that? Voting leave has caused the last three years worth of Brexit discussions. That stems exactly from the fact that people voted leave.

Similarly, if you knew that if a poll was taken tomorrow, 70% of people would vote for X e.g. no deal, or May deal, etc, do you really think that the politicians would not honour that?

I must respectfully suggest that you do believe voting can change things, but you realise that Brexit is an intractable and divisive problem that has no clear mandate for any set course of action, and thats the real problem.



Again, you have to recognise that it isnt as simple as "to brexit or not to brexit". A lot of the most ardent leave campaigners have voted against the agreement to leave the EU, because they specifically reject any form of deal. If the ERG, DUP and Brexit party were gone, Im sure Westminster would agree a deal in the morning*


*well, whichever morning they come back on

Conservative Party lol but i have to admit you have a good point about voting them, but my views are so so diferernt than that of a Conservative Party well except brexit.


Yes your right it not easy and no one has ever left before so its new. The UK are the first to leave and other countries should watch very carefully what is happening.
I just hope brexit does happen because as i said before waiting in the back ground are some very very nasty groups waiting to be born out of the ashes.
The one thing i will say about the English they are a tolerant race of people but if you psuh them to far they bloody bite.

J Mysterio

fr336 wrote: »

Anyone noticed there's no mention of Northern Ireland in Yellowhammer? That could be worrying, or being the British govt NI probably just slipped their mind.

I have a feeling NI may be the redacted part... but who knows.

13. Is quite chilling if obvious.

woohoo!!!

Fascinating to read the heavily redacted info on yellow hammer. Of course they've resisted releasing communications, it would identify a lot of important folk of conspiring to lie to the public, parliament and the queen to get parliament suspended. Her maj must be considering invoking full monarchy powers to run the country, temporarily, considering the utter hames the current shower are making of it. Along with the Scottish court ruling and the poll on NI re Irish reunification, it's fair to say we're watching the UKs political authority crumbling. And of course the various factions are too focused on their cunning wheezes and counter-wheezes, to realise the danger.

J Mysterio

Document seems to ammount to 'we're fu*ked' and seems to just cover the obvious, things we here have pointed out as long ago as 2 years hence?

J Mysterio

Pretty mind blowing stuff here from Cadwalladr. Basically, should there not be a No Deal Brexit, a lot of people in 'the City' will lose a lot of money.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1171838817470431234

gooch2k9

Reminds me a little bit of the sectoral assessments David Davis threw together over breakfast one day before school work.

gooch2k9

J Mysterio wrote: »

Pretty mind blowing stuff here from Cadwalladr. Basically, should there not be a No Deal Brexit, a lot of people in 'the City' will lose a lot of money.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1171838817470431234

That's shocking. Cadwalladr seems to uncover serious stuff but it gets very little coverage, I only ever see it here. Unless I'm missing it..? That should be a major headline right there, on all news media.

The ordinary person supporting Brexit still considers the likes of Gina Miller challenging parliament suspension as "rich people trying to block the will of the people" but will readily ignore news like this. I've given up trying to persuade people to at least look at both sides of the argument.

J Mysterio

Sunday Times journalist believes she has the scoop on the redacted element of Yellowhammer

https://twitter.com/RosamundUrwin/status/1171873763295682560

A Dub in Glasgo

gooch2k9 wrote: »

That's shocking. Cadwalladr seems to uncover serious stuff but it gets very little coverage, I only ever see it here. Unless I'm missing it..? That should be a major headline right there, on all news media.

The ordinary person supporting Brexit still considers the likes of Gina Miller challenging parliament suspension as "rich people trying to block the will of the people" but will readily ignore news like this. I've given up trying to persuade people to at least look at both sides of the argument.

Very little coverage in the UK media, presumably she is not on message for them