Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

AngryHippie

Bit cynical wrote: »

But democracy has suffered in the UK if they end up revoking A50 or rerunning the referendum. All we can really say is that it is a price worth paying.

I think that suffering has already been done.

The strike was asking a stupid vague question with deep reaching consequences to an ill-informed electorate awash with false information and with numpties like Farage running around making false flag accusations and claims.

The wound has been the split within the tory party (and labour party) and 3 years of total stagnation while the rest of the world revolves away from the UK in frustration.

The Festering has been the rise of BJ, JRM and Cummings.

The clean sweep should be the supreme court injunction forcing parliament to reconvene for a NCM of BJ, triggering a general election.

Request to EU for deadline extension for a GE would naturally be accommodated.

GE at this point could go either way depending on whose polls you believe.
Government mandate should be based solely on Brexit closure.

1. Hard brexit
2. extension and backstop brexit
3. Revoke, finish term in government adressing the structural and administrative issues for brexit (borders, customs, etc.) the re-enact A50
4. Withdraw A50 and watch the economy and society in general bounce back

To be honest, I'm of the opinion 3 or 4 are pretty likely at this point.
Farage and all his mates have dipped the economy, gotten in low and are well positioned for the rebound. JRM and co likewise. They will simply sit back and let some hero take over and take the blame for it all good or bad and cash out when it looks like peaking again.
Its a shock doctrine classic and It is the only thing that possibly looks like a coherent plan. They can't have been collectively incompetent enough to go this far for this long without having a golden parachute and a platinum reserve.
Think about who you are dealing with and what their real agenda is.

GREED.

people who voted for Brexit are just sheep being chased around the paddock for some other creep's payday.

McMurphy

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is the cover of the Mirror. It's quite striking.

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1171901664883814403

I think I need a lie down.

The brother deserting him makes even more sense now - one.pariah in the family is enough I guess.

Roger_007

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Are the DUP that bloody petty that they'll risk hurting the NI economy and the people in it just because of the "precious union" ?

I don't think the economy is the issue, it's their identity that they believe is in danger. But before we condemn the DUP, it might be useful to look back to the origins of our own state back in the early 1920s.
When we 'Irexited' the union of Great Britain and Ireland, we did so at great economic cost to the average person. My grandfather, who lived during those times, often horrified us with stories of the near-famine and dire poverty that occurred during the 1920s, particularly in rural Ireland. We endured many years of mass unemployment, mass emigration and general economic stagnation. Our population declined to less than 3 million by the 1960s. Despite all this there was never any clamour to rejoin the 'British Union'. We valued our independence and separate identity above any economic consideration.
It's the same with the DUP and the other Brexiteers. The economy is not the main issue. The DUP are no different from the 'Old IRA' of 1920s Ireland. They are just the other side of the same coin.
Also, until recently, Sinn Fein opposed Ireland joining the Common Market and have opposed every EU treaty since for the very same reasons that the Brexiteers oppose the EU. The only reason they oppose Brexit is because the DUP were for it.

Fr Tod Umptious

Roger_007 wrote: »

I don't think the economy is the issue, it's their identity that they believe is in danger. But before we condemn the DUP, it might be useful to look back to the origins of our own state back in the early 1920s.
When we 'Irexited' the union of Great Britain and Ireland, we did so at great economic cost to the average person. My grandfather, who lived during those times, often horrified us with stories of the near-famine and dire poverty that occurred during the 1920s, particularly in rural Ireland. We endured many years of mass unemployment, mass emigration and general economic stagnation. Our population declined to less than 3 million by the 1960s. Despite all this there was never any clamour to rejoin the 'British Union'. We valued our independence and separate identity above any economic consideration.
It's the same with the DUP and the other Brexiteers. The economy is not the main issue. The DUP are no different from the 'Old IRA' of 1920s Ireland. They are just the other side of the same coin.
Also, until recently, Sinn Fein opposed Ireland joining the Common Market and have opposed every EU treaty since for the very same reasons that the Brexiteers oppose the EU. The only reason they oppose Brexit is because the DUP were for it.

This is very true.

SF are by far the most eurosceptic party in the republic but have changed their tune for now because it suits their border poll narrative.

Another reason to totally distrust them.

Seth Brundle

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]

This is very true.

SF are by far the most eurosceptic party in the republic but have changed their tune for now because it suits their border poll narrative.

Another reason to totally distrust them.

Mod: folks let's not make this a SF bashing thread and stay on topic, thanks.

LeinsterDub

Jim2007 wrote: »

The DUP could not give a dam about the Union, their objective is to maintain the status quo in NI and that requires the GFA to be torn up and this is there best chance of doing that.

How is completely changing the status quo maintaining it?

IAmTheReign

woohoo!!! wrote: »

I don't see why posters are giving dublinjock a hard time. All these self confirmed experts on the EU, how it works, more than likely wouldn't have had a clue 3 years ago. I just see a poster trying to make sense of the mess who says he voted Brexit, presumably being one of many who fell for the lies of the leave campaign.

Or precisely the type of Brexit voter who could change their mind.

Presumably he's being given a hard time because despite claiming to be informed he didn't even know Nicola Sturgeon was an MSP and thinks the EU has a president despite repeatedly being told it doesn't.

And as for these 'self confirmed experts', at least they bothered to inform themselves. Dublinjock, despite voting for leave, still doesn't understand the basics of how the EU functions after 3 years.

IAmTheReign

J Mysterio wrote: »

This the most fascinating finding for me:



Unionists have a death wish seemingly.

That graph is wrong btw. The colour on the total columns was mixed up. It should say 38% to leave on the 31st with or without a deal, not 10%.

dublinjock

IAmTheReign wrote: »

Presumably he's being given a hard time because despite claiming to be informed he didn't even know Nicola Sturgeon was an MSP and thinks the EU has a president despite repeatedly being told it doesn't.

And as for these 'self confirmed experts', at least they bothered to inform themselves. Dublinjock, despite voting for leave, still doesn't understand the basics of how the EU functions after 3 years.

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU


What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

Fionn1952

dublinjock wrote: »

IAmTheReign wrote: »

Presumably he's being given a hard time because despite claiming to be informed he didn't even know Nicola Sturgeon was an MSP and thinks the EU has a president despite repeatedly being told it doesn't.

And as for these 'self confirmed experts', at least they bothered to inform themselves. Dublinjock, despite voting for leave, still doesn't understand the basics of how the EU functions after 3 years.

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU


What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

You actually have a disproportionately high say in the matter. You have more say than, for example, a single French citizen.

You're well within your rights to hold your beliefs, that's certainly a hugely positive aspect of our society. The counterpoint to that is that being free to hold your beliefs without punishment doesn't give you freedom to hold your beliefs without others challenging them.

Perhaps as someone with such strong anti-EU beliefs, it may be worth reading up on how the EU works, where each part derives it's power from, and most importantly, what is within the EUs remit and what remains totally within the remit of national governments. It really isn't particularly complex, and given that you're clearly capable of discussing the matter in a legivle manner, it's certainly not going to be beyond your grasp, despite many painting it as incomprehensibly complex (often to avoid a modicum of research).

dublinjock

IAmTheReign wrote: »

Presumably he's being given a hard time because despite claiming to be informed he didn't even know Nicola Sturgeon was an MSP and thinks the EU has a president despite repeatedly being told it doesn't.

And as for these 'self confirmed experts', at least they bothered to inform themselves. Dublinjock, despite voting for leave, still doesn't understand the basics of how the EU functions after 3 years.

I did know Nicola Sturgeon was a Glasgow MSP yesterday in haste i was trying to answer to many people at once. I accept what i said was unacceptable. But let him or her in life cast the first stone. If im judged by that one statement then to me that would be unacceptable.
Aain im no expert im only learning.

20silkcut

IAmTheReign wrote: »

That graph is wrong btw. The colour on the total columns was mixed up. It should say 38% to leave on the 31st with or without a deal, not 10%.

I found that a confusing graph.

darem93

https://twitter.com/Jack_Blanchard_/status/1172015270589870081

The right wing media are now trying to find dirt on the Scottish judges who made the ruling yesterday. One of them 'likes France' and the other 'likes jazz and thinks Brexit is going to be difficult'. It would be laughable if it wasn't so worrying.

dublinjock

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You actually have a disproportionately high say in the matter. You have more say than, for example, a single French citizen.

You're well within your rights to hold your beliefs, that's certainly a hugely positive aspect of our society. The counterpoint to that is that being free to hold your beliefs without punishment doesn't give you freedom to hold your beliefs without others challenging them.

Perhaps as someone with such strong anti-EU beliefs, it may be worth reading up on how the EU works, where each part derives it's power from, and most importantly, what is within the EUs remit and what remains totally within the remit of national governments. It really isn't particularly complex, and given that you're clearly capable of discussing the matter in a legivle manner, it's certainly not going to be beyond your grasp, despite many painting it as incomprehensibly complex (often to avoid a modicum of research).

Thank you nice post.
Yes i am allowed my view my beliefs and i would fight to my last breath to keep this.
It does appear im having a big say on this thread because so many people are asking me questions and im doing my best to answer each of them as best i can.
But now words are being put in my mouth that im stated imm a self claimed expert, which i have never claimed.A lot of people dont like my view fair enough.


I dont think the EU is Democratic the path its on its gonna get more powers and that frightens me.You might not like my view you might not accept my view but please let me have this and dont try to put words in my mouth. Im not saying you did but one poster already did.

IAmTheReign

dublinjock wrote: »

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU


What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

I never said you claimed to be an expert, the 'self confirmed experts' came from the poster I was quoting, not you. You have repeatedly claimed to be informed though, while at the same time asking very basic questions about how the EU functions. The one thing you claim you do know, that you have no say, is demonstrably false. The European Parliament is directly elected by all citizens of the EU, and the Council is appointed by each member state government, which are also elected by the citizens of the respective countries.

You are fully entitled to your views and beliefs btw but when those views and beliefs contradict facts you should expect to be called out on it. People aren't being condescending by telling you the truth, you just don't want to hear it.

dublinjock

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I never said you claimed to be an expert, the 'self confirmed experts' came from the poster I was quoting, not you. You have repeatedly claimed to be informed though, while at the same time asking very basic questions about how the EU functions. The one thing you claim you do know, that you have no say, is demonstrably false. The European Parliament is directly elected by all citizens of the EU, and the Council is appointed by each member state government, which are also elected by the citizens of the respective countries.

You are fully entitled to your views and beliefs btw but when those views and beliefs contradict facts you should expect to be called out on it. People aren't being condescending by telling you the truth, you just don't want to hear it.

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU

He didn't say that. At least not about you. Did you not see the quotation marks?

dublinjock wrote: »

What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

You can't have 'beliefs' about facts. This is the crux of brexit tbh. People were told (and are continuing to be told) to believe. When facts are readily available, people who fall back on belief are actively fooling themselves. If you don't know enough about something, you have a responsibility to educate yourself. You wouldn't buy a car without some research, you should apply at least the same level of scrutiny to a life-changing decision in a referendum.

As for having no say. You are now living in a country where EU treaties are adopted by constitutional referendum. On top of which you can vote for MEPs, the governing political party or coalition who's leader will sit in and have an equal vote at the European Council: the decision making body of the EU. That's more say than in the country you left where the head of state role is inherited, the electoral system returns one third of MPs without any meaningful vote and the PM can shut down parliament when they don't want to answer to it.

Dyr

Its probably and indication of the state of play that the government were relieved the Food and Medicine shortages made sure the "Boris Lies To Queen "Headline stayed off most of the front pages

prawnsambo

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

The 'free and independent' Scotland wants to join the EU if the UK leaves. That's a fact.

dublinjock

prawnsambo wrote: »

He didn't say that. At least not about you. Did you not see the quotation marks?


You can't have 'beliefs' about facts. This is the crux of brexit tbh. People were told (and are continuing to be told) to believe. When facts are readily available, people who fall back on belief are actively fooling themselves. If you don't know enough about something, you have a responsibility to educate yourself. You wouldn't buy a car without some research, you should apply at least the same level of scrutiny to a life-changing decision in a referendum.

As for having no say. You are now living in a country where EU treaties are adopted by constitutional referendum. On top of which you can vote for MEPs, the governing political party or coalition who's leader will sit in and have an equal vote at the European Council: the decision making body of the EU. That's more say than in the country you left where the head of state role is inherited, the electoral system returns one third of MPs without any meaningful vote and the PM can shut down parliament when they don't want to answer to it.

I am educating myself about the EU and to me if we are not careful this EU could and properly will become a monster.


Im currently living in a country that has a common travel area with the UK. This nothing to do with the EU.

Enzokk

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I guess I am surprised there was no enemies of people headlines yet. These brexiter revolutionaries want to tear the whole system down and replace it with a Russian style dystopian oligarchy, where the people are silenced altogether.

It will come when the Supreme Court rules the prorogation as illegal, if not they will not bother about it. Funny that some of the newspapers decided yesterday was the day that people are tired of Brexit and it is time to focus on stories elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1172047865344139264?s=20

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

Okay, what laws that is forced on you in Scotland from the EU is so bad that you want to leave? Please be specific as you can.

Also, if the UK as an independent nation free from the EU with its 65 million people and 5/6/7th biggest economy is predicted to face severe economic hardship from leaving the EU without a deal, why do you think an independent Scotland would be a good idea?

dublinjock

prawnsambo wrote: »

The 'free and independent' Scotland wants to join the EU if the UK leaves. That's a fact.

The free independent Scotland i dreamed about voted to remain in the UK that is a fact that was proven. And i was not happy believe me.


Scotalnd did not vote to leave the EU, first we must vote to leave the UK then we can rejoin or decide not to join the EU, But first we must leave the UK. W

Enzokk

Bambi wrote: »

Its probably and indication of the state of play that the government were relieved the Food and Medicine shortages made sure the "Boris Lies To Queen "Headline stayed off most of the front pages

It is more an indication of the owners of the newspapers and their aims than the news of medicine shortages keeping it off the headlines. If it was the case we would have seen the story about food shortages on the Sun and Daily Mail and Telegraph, but seeing as they didn't even cover them on the front pages it is clear they really don't want those stories to reach their readers and they want to keep them uninformed.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

I dont want to shackled to the EU i dont want be shackled to the UK i would like to see a free and independant Scotalnd free to make its own laws . Is this so bad?

Whats stopping you doing that outside the UK but within the EU? What restriction does the EU put on Ireland currently that stops it making its own laws? I cannot grasp your fear or dislike of the EU beyond it being irrationally fueled by far right propaganda.

The reason people might have their shackles up as a lot of the phrasing and arguments you are using come across as someone who believes everything the likes of Farage et al say.

An example is you keep repeating that the EU is undemocratic but have been unable to give voice to a single example of this being true.

looksee

dublinjock wrote: »

Please show me the quote where i have stated im an expert?
In fact i will show you quote where i have stated im not an expert and only within the last few years understanding the EU


What is it when someone dont agree people have to be condescending, im im a free democracy where currently im allowed my views and beliefs.
No i dont have any idea how the EU worjks how it gets it powers and who its accountable to. But i do know one thing i have totally no say in the matter.

Why should you have any say in something you state you don't have any idea about? I would not be allowed to referee a football match as I don't know the first thing about the rules of football, how much more important is the running of a country?

It is because a lot of uninformed people chose to follow their 'views and beliefs' rather than learning facts that this whole mess is happening.

Fionn1952

dublinjock wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You actually have a disproportionately high say in the matter. You have more say than, for example, a single French citizen.

You're well within your rights to hold your beliefs, that's certainly a hugely positive aspect of our society. The counterpoint to that is that being free to hold your beliefs without punishment doesn't give you freedom to hold your beliefs without others challenging them.

Perhaps as someone with such strong anti-EU beliefs, it may be worth reading up on how the EU works, where each part derives it's power from, and most importantly, what is within the EUs remit and what remains totally within the remit of national governments. It really isn't particularly complex, and given that you're clearly capable of discussing the matter in a legivle manner, it's certainly not going to be beyond your grasp, despite many painting it as incomprehensibly complex (often to avoid a modicum of research).

Thank you nice post.
Yes i am allowed my view my beliefs and i would fight to my last breath to keep this.
It does appear im having a big say on this thread because so many people are asking me questions and im doing my best to answer each of them as best i can.
But now words are being put in my mouth that im stated imm a self claimed expert, which i have never claimed.A lot of people dont like my view fair enough.


I dont think the EU is Democratic the path its on its gonna get more powers and that frightens me.You might not like my view you might not accept my view but please let me have this and dont try to put words in my mouth. Im not saying you did but one poster already did.

To be frank, whether I accept your view or like your view is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether your view is fact based or an emotion based gut feeling.

I'd ask precisely where you see the democratic deficit in the EU, and what makes you think it's going to get more powers?

What part of being in the EU has personally negatively impacted you, or what powers do you think the EU is going to have in the future that could negatively impact you?

As I'm sure you're already aware, due to the Irish constitution, any further pooling of sovereignty would require that the majority of Irish people agree to it in a referendum. The idea that the EU can just seize power from a country is paranoid and preposterous to be honest with you.

Enzokk

The Daily Mirror was the only paper that went with the headline that Johnson lied to the Queen, but they covered it with a advert sleeve it seems.

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1172028840769675265?s=20

dublinjock

Enzokk wrote: »

It will come when the Supreme Court rules the prorogation as illegal, if not they will not bother about it. Funny that some of the newspapers decided yesterday was the day that people are tired of Brexit and it is time to focus on stories elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1172047865344139264?s=20





Okay, what laws that is forced on you in Scotland from the EU is so bad that you want to leave? Please be specific as you can.

Also, if the UK as an independent nation free from the EU with its 65 million people and 5/6/7th biggest economy is predicted to face severe economic hardship from leaving the EU without a deal, why do you think an independent Scotland would be a good idea?

Its not a question of good or bad laws its a question of making your own rules laws for MPS or MSP.
Sure what the EU stands for does seem good but it dont seem accountable.
Yes Scotland being independent is good idea.

VinLieger

dublinjock wrote: »

Its not a question of good or bad laws its a question of making your own rules laws for MPS or MSP.
Sure what the EU stands for does seem good but it dont seem accountable.
Yes Scotland being independent is good idea.

Whats stopping you making laws within the EU, Please point me to specific examples?


Okay lets say Scotland is independent how do you think a country with 5.5 million population, limited natural resources or industry is going to fare on the international stage when it comes to trade?

dublinjock

Fionn1952 wrote: »

To be frank, whether I accept your view or like your view is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether your view is fact based or an emotion based gut feeling.

I'd ask precisely where you see the democratic deficit in the EU, and what makes you think it's going to get more powers?

What part of being in the EU has personally negatively impacted you, or what powers do you think the EU is going to have in the future that could negatively impact you?

As I'm sure you're already aware, due to the Irish constitution, any further pooling of sovereignty would require that the majority of Irish people agree to it in a referendum. The idea that the EU can just seize power from a country is paranoid and preposterous to be honest with you.

So you admit the EU does have powers, so again who gave them these powers? Who are they accountable to? How do we take these powers back?


Why would the EU seize power of any country? I know during the bail out here in Ireland the EU did not step in to help with the gambling debts of the bankers, so on that basis you would imagine they would never interfere in countries Ecomines??? So i dont see the EU seizing power.