Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

Berserker wrote: »

Yes, I can see China and the UK refusing to trade with the UK, a G8 nation because of the Irish border. Trump is going to turn his back on a deal, which puts America first, give US pharma firms access to the NHS because of a border on an island, which is 1/5th of the size of Texas. The level of self-importance on this forum is something to behold at times.

Oh, I have no doubt that the UK will be able to make trade deals, much as they did with the Faroe Islands. Remind me how much of a better deal they got in that? So they will make deals, but deals so much in the other countries favour it will make the control they felt they had lost to the EU seem like the joke it is.

Berserker wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up but you need to take you green tinted glasses off and stop trying to put the blame on the UK for the hard border. It is going to be and was always going to be EU driven.

"We need to take back control of our borders". You remember that don't you. Was, and continues to be said by Brexiteers. How is that the EU's fault?

robinph

J Mysterio wrote: »

I think the point they are trying to convey is that the UK cannot be asked to stay in a backstop when Ireland would not countenance staying in the UK orbit to facilitate a deal?

That's the only thing I can think they might mean. The two things are not the same and it's clearly absolutely preposterous and insulting in how deranged the proposition is but, hey, there we are. It's playing stupid, which Boris is good at.

Ireland wouldn't have held a vote on leaving the EU without figuring out what happens to NI first, and then decided it was a stupid idea.

Isn't the whole point of the GFA that Ireland and the UK agree to stay within each others orbits though until ... something.

KildareP

Berserker wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up but you need to take you green tinted glasses off and stop trying to put the blame on the UK for the hard border. It is going to be and was always going to be EU driven.

Who initially caused the Border to be installed on the island of Ireland?

Who is making a change that necessitates revisiting Border arrangements on the island of Ireland?

Who is normally responsible, when party to a shared arrangement, for assisting in developing ways in which the future can be maintained when said party wishes to change the otherwise satisfactory and agreed status quo?

Who is bound by a democratically backed agreement to respect the will of the majority of Northern Ireland, to ensure cross-border and all-island co-operation on matters political and who will continue to be committed by same in areas surrounding the soon-to-be international border with the EU?

J Mysterio

robinph wrote: »

Isn't the whole point of the GFA that Ireland and the UK agree to stay within each others orbits though until ... something.

Yes. So I believe the UK are now suggesting it makes more sense for Ireland to somehow align with the UK to smooth matters rather than NI remain aligned to the EU.

It's a 'what's good for us should be good for you' thing I think. Why won't you consider this when you want us to do 'same'.

Makes no sense whatsoever of course but when has logic got in the way of a good Brexity manoeuvre. It's as if they want a reaction on this - to ruffle 'Dublin', which has refused to be ruffled. As if they want us to finally boil over and react in some way so they can point the finger. Basically DUP playbook.

bobmalooka

Berserker wrote: »

Yes, I can see China and the UK refusing to trade with the UK, a G8 nation because of the Irish border. Trump is going to turn his back on a deal, which puts America first, give US pharma firms access to the NHS because of a border on an island, which is 1/5th of the size of Texas. The level of self-importance on this forum is something to behold at times.



Thanks for clearing that up but you need to take you green tinted glasses off and stop trying to put the blame on the UK for the hard border. It is going to be and was always going to be EU driven.

1. Not trumps decision alone. Theres plenty will see this as a once off opportunity to plunder the U.K. and will push for it but also a significant weight behind the need to preserve GFA. It’s well reported how a deal would need to be approved there, you must know this.

2. Nonsense, need for a border is driven entirely by decisions made by UK, referendum/A50 invocation, arbitrary red lines, reneging on WA.

The self importance of this thread pales in comparison to the news that UK’s PM is to lobby EU leaders to push Ireland out of the EU to fix his problem.

Enzokk

Berserker wrote: »

Yes, I can see China and the UK refusing to trade with the UK, a G8 nation because of the Irish border. Trump is going to turn his back on a deal, which puts America first, give US pharma firms access to the NHS because of a border on an island, which is 1/5th of the size of Texas. The level of self-importance on this forum is something to behold at times.



Thanks for clearing that up but you need to take you green tinted glasses off and stop trying to put the blame on the UK for the hard border. It is going to be and was always going to be EU driven.

Slip of the mask? It is the G7 and not the G8, at least until Trump tries to get Russia back in.

As for the border, without all the EU mechanisms in place to ensure a standardized regulations and custom tariffs and a legal way to enforce this, it means there will need to be a border. Show me anywhere else in the world where this is not true. So the border is not EU driven as the EU is not the one requesting the UK to leave.

J Mysterio wrote: »

I think the point they are trying to convey is that the UK cannot be asked to stay in a backstop when Ireland would not countenance staying in the UK orbit to facilitate a deal?

That's the only thing I can think they might mean. The two things are not the same and it's clearly absolutely preposterous and insulting in how deranged the proposition is but, hey, there we are. It's playing stupid, which Boris is good at.

Here is the follow up tweet on the proposal.

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1163966336395034624?s=20

A senior minister: “The solution is a bilateral agreement to agree a common rule book with Ireland for as long we need one. Ireland would also keep all the advantages of its single market membership, if the EU is prepared to be flexible”.
But will it fly in Dublin? Hmm.

The problem is we would not keep the advantages of the single market membership as we would have different rules to the EU. This shouldn't be hard for people who is supposed to be smart, right?

KildareP

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yes. So I believe the UK are now suggesting it makes more sense for Ireland to somehow align with the UK to smooth matters rather than NI remain aligned to the EU.

It's a 'what's good for us should be good for you' thing I think. Why won't you consider this when you want us to do 'same'.

Makes no sense whatsoever of course but when has logic got in the way of a good Brexity manoeuvre. It's as if they want a reaction on this - to ruffle 'Dublin', which has refused to be ruffled. As if they want us to finally boil over and react in some way so they can point the finger. Basically DUP playbook.

That argument falls apart though as soon as we remember - they voted to leave, we didn't


If you (read: UK) want to leave, but still desire/require a deal after you've left, it's up to you to show the most flexibility, not everyone else. You don't get the upper-hand or get to call the shots.

J Mysterio

KildareP wrote: »

That argument falls apart though as soon as we remember - they voted to leave, we didn't


If you (read: UK) want to leave, but still desire/require a deal after you've left, it's up to you to show the most flexibility, not everyone else. You don't get the upper-hand or get to call the shots.

Obviously that is/ would be the argument.

We are trying to put forward a hypothesis as to what Johnson/ the UK could conceivably be at though. Something not making any sense has not hindered Brexiteers in any way in many years.

'We in the UK won't accept Backstop proposals if Ireland won't do something backstoppy.'

Nody

Berserker wrote: »

Yes, I can see China and the UK refusing to trade with the UK, a G8 nation because of the Irish border. Trump is going to turn his back on a deal, which puts America first, give US pharma firms access to the NHS because of a border on an island, which is 1/5th of the size of Texas. The level of self-importance on this forum is something to behold at times.

Well there is this minor thing called balance of power in the US even if Trump don't believe in it and as part of that Democrats will block said trade deal if the NI border is not sorted out; sorry to disappoint you.

Thanks for clearing that up but you need to take you green tinted glasses off and stop trying to put the blame on the UK for the hard border. It is going to be and was always going to be EU driven.

Funny how the rest of the world see's it as UK's fault after UK decides to leave and refuses to deal with the issue leaving causes. It's almost like there is UK vs. the World in the blame split here but clearly the rest of the world must have gotten it wrong somehow.

Professor Moriarty

Though I have good English friends, given the British government's rhetoric in recent weeks and this very insulting idea that Ireland should leave the EU to facilitate England, it's becoming increasingly difficult not to think badly of England at times.

J Mysterio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Though I have good English friends, given the British government's rhetoric in recent weeks and this very insulting idea that Ireland should leave the EU to facilitate England, it's becoming increasingly difficult not to think badly of England at times.

It's a huge strain on relations and will probably get worse yet.
I'm not anticipating the return of No Dogs, No Irish signs, but casual discrimination might well make a come back.

Irish people are of course defending Ireland and criticizing the UK on social media etc., many in the UK are taking umbrage at this.

In a No Deal scenario, relations will be extremely strained and would be as low as has been since... what? Independence?

It's a long way from the sort of good vibes and convivial spirit we had when Cameron apologized for Bloody Sunday and the Queen had her nice little visit.

Berserker

Leroy42 wrote: »

"We need to take back control of our borders". You remember that don't you. Was, and continues to be said by Brexiteers. How is that the EU's fault?

I remember it well. It's one of the reasons why most of my family voted for Brexit. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that Irish people are starting to whisper the same thing to each other. Won't be long before that becomes a major issue here.

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

kunst nugget

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Though I have good English friends, given the British government's rhetoric in recent weeks and this very insulting idea that Ireland should leave the EU to facilitate England, it's becoming increasingly difficult not to think badly of England at times.

Given our shared history, how could they possibly think that Ireland leaving the EU to accommodate their stupidity would ever be a flyer? It's one of the most baffling ideas I seen in relation to Brexit....

fash

Leroy42 wrote: »

Corbyn has stated numerous times that he wants a GE. He can't then turn the opportunity to get to that with any credibility.

Sure he can: "for the good of the country, I will not be part of distracting the government while it carries out the most dangerous, disruptive and complex act that any one of us has ever experienced. The Tories have led us to this point, they must own this - I will not be part of allowing them excuses for their failures"

Professor Moriarty

kunst nugget wrote: »

Given our shared history, how could they possibly think that Ireland leaving the EU to accommodate their stupidity would ever be a flyer? It's one of the most baffling ideas I seen in relation to Brexit....

Dead cats can't fly.

Berserker

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Though I have good English friends, given the British government's rhetoric in recent weeks and this very insulting idea that Ireland should leave the EU to facilitate England, it's becoming increasingly difficult not to think badly of England at times.

What happens if the EU decides that this is the best way forward? It'll draw a line under Brexit and the EU can move on. What will Ireland do?

Water John

TNM did not mention this Ireland diverging notion on Sky at 10.30 pm but did at 11.30 pm. Where and when did this surface?
Was this suggested to Varadkar yesterday? Don't think so.
So we can take it as floated last night without the courtesy of even mentioning it to us. Of all the daft ideas, it's quite obvious it's for his Brexit audience.

Quin_Dub

Nody wrote: »

Well there is this minor thing called balance of power in the US even if Trump don't believe in it and as part of that Democrats will block said trade deal if the NI border is not sorted out; sorry to disappoint you.

Funny how the rest of the world see's it as UK's fault after UK decides to leave and refuses to deal with the issue leaving causes. It's almost like there is UK vs. the World in the blame split here but clearly the rest of the world must have gotten it wrong somehow.

Absolutely - We can debate how really seriously they care about the GFA , but the Democrats in the House will absolutely categorically not give Trump a trade deal win before the election.

They still haven't signed the new NAFTA deal either and Trump signed that 10 months ago after months of negotiations. and that's just just fresh lipstick on an existing deal.

It will be at least 18 months before any deal gets signed (and that's even if Trump wins re-election).

China might sign a deal , but it will take at least a year if not more and will come with Major concessions for the UK.


The UK will absolutely not get a single deal with a Major nation that is better than the ones they have now via the EU - Why would they , they have far less to offer anyone now.

In fact , I'm more than confident that they won't even manage to break even on these deals.

Why would any country just roll-over the current terms they have via the EU??

J Mysterio

kunst nugget wrote: »

Given our shared history, how could they possibly think that Ireland leaving the EU to accommodate their stupidity would ever be a flyer? It's one of the most baffling ideas I seen in relation to Brexit....

I suspect that the UK government - should they so desire (and it seems they may desire it) - could play on the general UK populations ignorance of Anglo-Irish history. As we have seen many times, the average man on the street has no idea about how bad Anglo-Irish relations have been and how this has left an indelible mark on the Irish pysche.

We have been waiting for the blame game to ramp up and this could well be the latest ploy.

Berserker

Water John wrote: »

TNM did not mention this Ireland diverging notion on Sky at 10.30 pm but did at 11.30 pm. Where and when did this surface? Was this suggested to Varadkar yesterday? Don't think so.
So we can take it as floated last night without the courtesy of even mentioning it to us. Of all the daft ideas, it's quite obvious it's for his Brexit audience.

If it's surfacing today then it must have been mentioned yesterday. Someone is testing the water.

Water John

Beserker, the odds of the EU pushing this idea on Ireland are zero Kelvin, -273 degrees Faranheit, absolute zero.

Professor Moriarty

Berserker wrote: »

What happens if the EU decides that this is the best way forward? It'll draw a line under Brexit and the EU can move on. What will Ireland do?

That won't happen. They must support Ireland or the EU will unravel.

Quin_Dub

Berserker wrote: »

What happens if the EU decides that this is the best way forward? It'll draw a line under Brexit and the EU can move on. What will Ireland do?

They won't.

Because to even imagine that that might be something the EU would even consider shows a staggering lack of understanding about what the European project is about.

Which kind of explains the whole reason why we are in the position we are in.

If the UK understood what the EU was actually for, they wouldn't have voted for Brexit.

lola85

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster is wrong that it was 'Miriam's view'. She was just doing her job with the interviewee (Patrick O'Donovan FG I think) and playing devil's advocate.

She was not playing devils advocate.

She was clear in her opinion that the government needed to drop the backstop and accept Britain won’t back down.

It was her personal opinion.

Call me Al

Leroy42 wrote: »

Has she given any indication of what the alternative is?

Or is she simply of the view that the SM and CU rules and regulations should cease to apply? Johnson in his letter to Tusk reiterated that the UK intends to diverge in standards.

In fairness I think she's just playing devils advocate and ply both sides of the argument, albeit in a fairly direct manner. It's a fairly monotonous interview if it's a love-in. Simon Coveney was excellent taking the interview this morning, as always.

Lolle06

Berserker wrote: »

What happens if the EU decides that this is the best way forward? It'll draw a line under Brexit and the EU can move on. What will Ireland do?

Move on to where exactly? Kicking out a member out of pure convenience would go against the very idea of a union in Europe. It isn’t ROI’s fault that the English and Welsh majority voted for Brexit.

lola85

Call me Al wrote: »

In fairness I think she's just playing devils advocate and ply both sides of the argument, albeit in a fairly direct manner. It's a fairly monotonous interview if it's a love-in. Simon Coveney was excellent taking the interview this morning, as always.

I’m referring to her yesterday morning not today.

Good to see she has rolled back probably after the comments she received yesterday after the sighing and deep breathes when she was told the government won’t be backing down over the backstop.

She was in clear agreement with Hugh o Connell piece that the government have handled this badly and need to back down and drop the backstop.

Berserker

Water John wrote: »

Beserker, the odds of the EU pushing this idea on Ireland are zero Kelvin, -273 degrees Faranheit, absolute zero.

How do you know that?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That won't happen. They must support Ireland or the EU will unravel.

The EU treated Ireland like a rubbish bin the past and nobody kicked up a fuss back then. Humour me on this. What would people do here? What can they actually do.

kunst nugget

Berserker wrote: »

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

Given the economic shock that's likely in the event of Brexit, I'd imagine there's not going to be a lot of money in the UK purse to loan out to other nations.

The type of rhetoric you're engaging in here, and that I've been reading more and more online in relation to belittling a sovereign nation like Ireland - who had no hand, act or part in the UK's decision to leave the EU, is completely loathsome.

Water John

Johnson knows full well that the idea won't float. He has to take some idea with him and this is the best their collective brains could come up with.