Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger

Berserker wrote: »

I remember it well. It's one of the reasons why most of my family voted for Brexit. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that Irish people are starting to whisper the same thing to each other. Won't be long before that becomes a major issue here.

Yeah its not and it wont, stop living in your echo chamber

Berserker wrote: »

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

We don't consider us ourselves big boys we consider the EU which we are a member of as the big boy, which still somehow is something you and other brexiteers cannot comprehend, the UK outside of the EU is simply not as powerful as it would like to think in the modern world.


Also you think the EU screwed us in 2008? What have the UK/England ever done for us except treat us like dirt? 2 Famines which our population still hasn't recovered from, partitioning the country and directly causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people from a decades long terrorist campaign and war that one side was effectively being sponsored by the UK government, practically killing our native language and more recently refusing to let us pay back our loans from the financial crisis early unlike EVERY other country as well as suggesting we be starved as punishment for not bowing down to almighty albion. And all thats just a brief overview.

listermint

Berserker wrote: »

How do you know that?



The EU treated Ireland like a rubbish bin the past and nobody kicked up a fuss back then. Humour me on this. What would people do here? What can they actually do.

Very poor attempts at debate from you this morning, more akin at attempts to wind people up.

I cant tell if you are taking the Farage or the Boris playbook literally. Either way is highly amusing for me. Although i doubt you will find it as amusing on Nov 1st.

Professor Moriarty

Berserker wrote: »

How do you know that?



The EU treated Ireland like a rubbish bin the past and nobody kicked up a fuss back then. Humour me on this. What would people do here? What can they actually do.

Some people say Ireland took one for the team. others would say that we were bailed out by the EU. The clear reality is that the EU has been and is very good for Ireland. Furthermore, the vast majority of people in Ireland want to remain in the EU.

Ben Done

Berserker wrote: »

I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

Nice.
Any more anti-Irish tropes you'd like to fling round?

Berserker

Lolle06 wrote: »

Move on to where exactly? Kicking out a member out of pure convenience would go against the very idea of a union in Europe. It isn’t ROI’s fault that the English and Welsh majority voted for Brexit.

Moving on with project EU. Striking deals with the likes with US for cheaper beef. Moving forward with the EU army, for example. Brexit has been hanging over the EU for too long. They've admitted that they are getting tired of it.

kunst nugget wrote: »

Given the economic shock that's likely in the event of Brexit, I'd imagine there's not going to be a lot of money in the UK purse to loan out to other nations.

The UK found money during the financial collapse in 2008 to do so and was the UK the first to provide Ireland with money when the ATMs were empty here. The EU was busy gathering data on every loss known to man in central Europe, to pile on Ireland when London was signing their cheque.

Your vision of the economic shock of Brexit is incorrect. You do realise that the UK isn't going to cease to function right? Even the most outlandish worst case scenario won't lead to that.

Professor Moriarty

Downing Street pouring cold water on Newton Dunn's story about Johnson floating the idea that Ireland should leave along with the UK.

lawred2

Berserker wrote: »

I remember it well. It's one of the reasons why most of my family voted for Brexit. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that Irish people are starting to whisper the same thing to each other. Won't be long before that becomes a major issue here.

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

That's cloud cuckoo land stuff and a total denial of reality.

VinLieger

Berserker wrote: »

The UK found money during the financial collapse in 2008 to do so and was the UK the first to provide Ireland with money when the ATMs were empty here. The EU was busy gathering data on every loss known to man in central Europe, to pile on Ireland when London was signing their cheque.

Give me the exact date when the ATMS were empty please, other wise retract the claim.


Also yes they did give us a loan but again they were the only country to refuse to allow us to pay the loan back early.

Water John

Yes, you will have lots of lamb to eat as it won't be going to France.

Professor Moriarty

Berserker wrote: »

Moving on with project EU. Striking deals with the likes with US for cheaper beef. Moving forward with the EU army, for example. Brexit has been hanging over the EU for too long. They've admitted that they are getting tired of it.



The UK found money during the financial collapse in 2008 to do so and was the UK the first to provide Ireland with money when the ATMs were empty here. The EU was busy gathering data on every loss known to man in central Europe, to pile on Ireland when London was signing their cheque.

Your vision of the economic shock of Brexit is incorrect. You do realise that the UK isn't going to cease to function right? Even the most outlandish worst case scenario won't lead to that.

It was in the UK's political and economic interest to ensure Ireland stayed afloat

listermint

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was in the UK's political and economic interest to ensure Ireland stayed afloat

With a high interest loan which they would not allow us to pay back early despite numerous requests to do so.

Its like it was a gift from a wealthy uncle the way they go on, what is more accurate is the wealthy uncle is wealthy for a reason because he makes money off every transaction and NEVER looks at a transaction without what is in it for him.

BonnieSituation

VinLieger wrote: »

Yeah its not and it wont, stop living in your echo chamber






We don't consider us ourselves big boys we consider the EU which we are a member of as the big boy, which still somehow is something you and other brexiteers cannot comprehend, the UK outside of the EU is simply not as powerful as it would like to think in the modern world.


Also you think the EU screwed us in 2008? What have the UK/England ever done for us except treat us like dirt? 2 Famines which our population still hasn't recovered from, partitioning the country and directly causing the deaths of thousands of innocent people from a decades long terrorist campaign and war that one side was effectively being sponsored by the UK government, practically killing our native language and more recently refusing to let us pay back our loans from the financial crisis early unlike EVERY other country as well as suggesting we be starved as punishment for not bowing down to almighty albion. And all that's just a brief overview.

I don't want to get into an emotive debate on here about our history and some of the truly awful things inflicted upon us by Britain - even as a constituent country of the UK - but recently I've been taking solace in the ability of us to take humour from their pure ignorance and "bulldog" spirit:

http://arethebritsatitagain.com/

This is honestly one of the best summations of the current nonsensical journey our neighbours across the water on. It encapsulates us as a nation rolling our eyes at "them".

Berserker

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was in the UK's political and economic interest to ensure Ireland stayed afloat

Lol, I'll take that as me being correct.

lawred2 wrote: »

That's cloud cuckoo land stuff and a total denial of reality.

Take a look at some of the content on this forum. Been to plenty of public meetings in Dublin where people have raised the issue of 'looking after Irish people first'. Must have dreamt about the attacks on the asylum seeker hotels! As I said above, it's a whisper at the moment but give it a few years.

Professor Moriarty

Berserker wrote: »

Lol, I'll take that as me being correct.



Take a look at some of the content on this forum. Been to plenty of public meetings in Dublin where people have raised the issue of 'looking after Irish people first'. Must have dreamt about the attacks on the asylum seeker hotels! As I said above, it's a whisper at the moment but give it a few years.

Take it anyway you like. Correct me if I'm wrong, Anna Soubry is the only British politician who has apologised for the damage that Brexit will do to Ireland.

ambro25

Berserker wrote: »

Moving on with project EU. Striking deals with the likes with US for cheaper beef. Moving forward with the EU army, for example. Brexit has been hanging over the EU for too long. They've admitted that they are getting tired of it.

Why would Ireland strike a deal with the US for cheaper, inferior-quality beef from the US?

Ireland enjoys a veto on EU army developments, if such were to conflict with its neutrality. That is all, notwithstanding its participation to the EU's coordinated efforts in policing the Med (a longer and more significant participation than the UK's Royal Navy, unless I am mistaken). The Lisbon Treaty double-referendum provides all the evidence you need, that the EU accomodates Irish concerns in this and any other constitutionally-significant respects.

You're right about the EU being tired of Brexit, that said. At least here on the Continent. Still, at least we know how to stay classy with it.

I don't expect many of the EU26 heads of states will be hard to convince out of a further extension for the UK this time, when Macron rolls into the Council meeting with a "told you so" come October.

Then, after the street and beach parties, we can all move on: the EU27, including Ireland, as one.

And the UK on its own, off to find its sunny uplands. Best of luck and all that.

kunst nugget

Berserker wrote: »

The UK found money during the financial collapse in 2008 to do so and was the UK the first to provide Ireland with money when the ATMs were empty here. The EU was busy gathering data on every loss known to man in central Europe, to pile on Ireland when London was signing their cheque.

The UK borrowed money on the open market and then gave it to us at a substantially inflated interest rate. It wasn't some act of altruism. Considering our importance as a trading partner, it was in Britain's interest, in every way, to loan us the money.

Berserker wrote: »

Your vision of the economic shock of Brexit is incorrect. You do realise that the UK isn't going to cease to function right? Even the most outlandish worst case scenario won't lead to that.

It's not going to cease to function but its economic output is going to be severely disrupted. If it leaves with a no-deal Brexit, the myriad of different issues it will face are going to be disastrous.

lawred2

Berserker wrote: »

Take a look at some of the content on this forum. Been to plenty of public meetings in Dublin where people have raised the issue of 'looking after Irish people first'. Must have dreamt about the attacks on the asylum seeker hotels! As I said above, it's a whisper at the moment but give it a few years.

how is any of that in any way reflective of broader trends?

VinLieger

Berserker wrote: »

Lol, I'll take that as me being correct.



Take a look at some of the content on this forum. Been to plenty of public meetings in Dublin where people have raised the issue of 'looking after Irish people first'. Must have dreamt about the attacks on the asylum seeker hotels! As I said above, it's a whisper at the moment but give it a few years.

Still no dates for when the ATMs were empty?

sandyxxx

J Mysterio wrote: »

sandyxxx wrote: »

According to a campaigner on SKY BoJo is off around Europe proposing Ireland temporarily LEAVES the customs union to facilitate Brexit.....the Tory rep isn’t denying it.....WE ARE DEALING WITH CLOWNS!

I think the point they are trying to convey is that the UK cannot be asked to stay in a backstop when Ireland would not countenance staying in the UK orbit to facilitate a deal?

That's the only thing I can think they might mean. The two things are not the same and it's clearly absolutely preposterous and insulting in how deranged the proposition is but, hey, there we are. It's playing stupid, which Boris is good at.

You’d be forgiven for thinking that but it was said and accepted in all seriousness by both sides.......it was speculated his methodology in doing so was to say “well we offered a solution but they were unreasonable and wouldn’t accept it!!!”

prawnsambo

kunst nugget wrote: »

The UK borrowed money on the open market and then gave it to us at an substantially inflated interest rate. It wasn't some act of altruism. Considering our importance as a trading partner, it was in Britain's interest, in every way, to loan us the money.

It's not going to cease to function but its economic output is going to be severely disrupted. If it leaves with a no-deal Brexit, the myriad of different issues it will face are going to be disastrous.

It was £3.2 billion. And it wasn't all drawn down until 2013. So not exactly an emergency requirement. And all to be (and will be) paid back by mid 2021 if I recall correctly. But it's been inflated to the size of the UK national debt according to some brexiters. It's an absolute red herring, but it does make them feel a bit superior, so we should let them on with it really.

Pedro K

Berserker wrote: »

I remember it well. It's one of the reasons why most of my family voted for Brexit. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that Irish people are starting to whisper the same thing to each other. Won't be long before that becomes a major issue here.

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

Another poster called this rhetoric loathsome. I completely agree
I can't help but spot the irony in the boldened part of the quote. It will be the U.K. who discovers, very quickly, in trade negotiations with the U.S. and China, that it is not the big boy it thinks it is.

lawred2

Berserker wrote: »

I remember it well. It's one of the reasons why most of my family voted for Brexit. If you listen carefully, you'll notice that Irish people are starting to whisper the same thing to each other. Won't be long before that becomes a major issue here.

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

where exactly are you from? you not from the North?

an area largely dependent on subventions from GB. Your posts are risible really. Just toxic attention stuff seeking.

You are due a recession

sorry? do they come around like buses?

imagine willing a recession on others solely because you're inflicting one on yourself.

childish

Dytalus

Berserker wrote: »

Yes, I can see China and the UK refusing to trade with the UK, a G8 nation because of the Irish border. Trump is going to turn his back on a deal, which puts America first, give US pharma firms access to the NHS because of a border on an island, which is 1/5th of the size of Texas. The level of self-importance on this forum is something to behold at times.

I never said they'd refuse to trade. Merely that they could take complaints to the WTO that Ireland and the EU are, through the NI/RoI border, trading along favourable terms in direct contradiction to the laws of the World Trade Organisation. The UK will have broken its international agreements. If the UK does not police what crosses that border, it is favourable trade with any nation that trades across that border.

Which is strictly against WTO rules. If you provide favourable trade arrangements with one nation (low tariffs, high quotas) and do not have a free trade agreement or customs union with that nation, you must provide the same arrangements to all WTO members.

If the UK leaves the border unchecked in Ireland, they are required to leave all the borders unchecked. If goods can be sold in Northern Ireland tariff free (and without a border, how can you tell what's come from the republic? Do you trust the packaging?) then they must be sold all across the UK, coming in from any nation, tariff free. If there is no quota checking (again, no border controls to check for this) for beef coming from Ireland then there can be no quota checking for beef coming from the US either. Why would the US make a trade deal in those circumstances? What does the UK have to offer the US when they're already getting uncontrolled access to UK markets?

EDIT: Seen some of your most recent posts. You're just a hateful anti-Irish type. Cool, well if I'd known that I wouldn't have tried to have a proper discussion with you. Of course you can ignore international trade law, knock yourself out.

murphaph

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was in the UK's political and economic interest to ensure Ireland stayed afloat

Indeed. They even say so on their website

The Loans to Ireland Act was granted Royal Assent on 21 December 2010, and provided Parliamentary authorisation for a bilateral loan of £3.2 billion to be lent to Ireland. The government expects the loan to be repaid in full.

The government agreed to provide a bilateral loan to Ireland because it is in the UK’s national interest that Ireland has a successful economy and a stable banking system. The links between our financial systems, particularly in Northern Ireland, mean that there is a strong economic case to provide financial assistance to Ireland. By being part of the international financial package, the UK will indirectly support the very many businesses across the UK that trade with Ireland.

Under the terms of the Loans to Ireland Act 2010, the Treasury is required to report periodically on the bilateral loan, including on loan payments made, interest received and amounts outstanding.

Most of this money, if not all, went into propping up Ulster Bank as a collapse could have infected its parent, RBS.

Laois_Man

Berserker wrote: »

That borders remark was not aimed at the Irish and you know that. I know that the Irish like to pretend that they are big boys but you are not. You are due a recession and your first port of call for some cash to keep the lights on and jobs for all of the young people who have to leave will be the UK, like it always is. The EU will treat you like dirt like they did in 2008. Might want to keep that in mind.

I think you're missing the point that an open Irish border wouldn't just allow free access to 4.8 million RoI nationals, but also the other 450 million European nationals

As for recession, the British economy retracted 0.2% in Quarter 2. It would have satisfied the parameters of a recession by now but for Brexit stockpiling in Q1 (which may occur agin in Q3)

Berserker wrote: »

The EU treated Ireland like a rubbish bin the past and nobody kicked up a fuss back then. Humour me on this. What would people do here? What can they actually do.

We wouldn't have to do a thing because there is no legal basis upon which Ireland can be kicked out of the EU because of Brexit! It's a point I would have expected to have been making if I was addressing a primary school class.

bob mcbob

Berserker wrote: »

Moving on with project EU. Striking deals with the likes with US for cheaper beef. Moving forward with the EU army, for example. Brexit has been hanging over the EU for too long. They've admitted that they are getting tired of it.



The UK found money during the financial collapse in 2008 to do so and was the UK the first to provide Ireland with money when the ATMs were empty here. The EU was busy gathering data on every loss known to man in central Europe, to pile on Ireland when London was signing their cheque.

Your vision of the economic shock of Brexit is incorrect. You do realise that the UK isn't going to cease to function right? Even the most outlandish worst case scenario won't lead to that.

No the United Kingdom will just cease to exist

Lolle06

Pedro K wrote: »

It will be the U.K. who discovers, very quickly, in trade negotiations with the U.S. and China, that it is not the big boy it thinks it is.

The idea of the UK playing with the „big boys“ on the same level really is laughable.
If the UK doesn’t give Trump & his buddies whatever they demand (is the NHS for sale?), he will throw a tantrum and pull out of all trade deals.
And China... well, they will do whatever it takes to become the most powerful economy in the world (by strategically buying important assets).
The UK will have to bend over backwards to please the „big boys“.

prawnsambo

Laois_Man wrote: »

As for recession, the British economy retracted 0.2% in Quarter 2. It would have satisfied the parameters of a recession by now but for Brexit stockpiling in Q1 (which may occur agin in Q3)

I maybe wrong here, but on that last point, I believe that there is no further slack space in warehousing in the UK. I think this was noted at the time that they were considering stockpiling more medicines and found that they couldn't. So unless they worked through the stockpiles without ordering more product (which would seem counter intuitive), there will be no further stockpiling 'bounce'.

Roger_007

Lolle06 wrote: »

The idea of the UK playing with the „big boys“ on the same level really is laughable.
If the UK doesn’t give Trump & his buddies whatever they demand (is the NHS for sale?), he will throw a tantrum and pull out of all trade deals.
And China... well, they will do whatever it takes to become the most powerful economy in the world (by strategically buying important assets).
The UK will have to bend over backwards to please the „big boys“.

Maybe if Johnson offered to sell Scotland and Northern Ireland to Trump, he could get a favourable trade deal and get rid of those troublesome 'remoaners' in one fell swoop........

(I'm only half joking)

Leroy42

Peter Bone on Sky News:

“I think the backstop makes it impossible, but if of course, you’re going to reopen the withdrawal agreement then you can reopen everything and see if we can get a proper deal.”

That is the nub of the issue. The backstop is simply a door opener, which to be fair to the EU they foresaw and therefore agreed with the UK government that the extension would not be used for any renogiation.

The UK has, just like the December 2017 agreement, gone back on its promise yet they are supposed to take seriously when the new PM says that we should just trust them on the backstop issue!