Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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Calltocall

Correct me if I’m wrong but is this the first sign of a change coming from the EU, as in now Merkel is offering the Uk 30 days to come up with an alternative to the Backstop, are they buckling a bit? I hope not

Dyr

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Macron has come out this evening and busted things up pretty bad.

Spoke of war recently in Ireland, and said under no circumstances at all is the WA going to be changed. Britain can take it or leave it he said.

Macron didn't even want to give the Brits the Halloween extension, no suprise there really.

bobmalooka

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

What did he say? Link?

https://twitter.com/achrisafis/status/1164246961127665664?s=21

He didn’t wait long to pour the cold water

lola85

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sorry, my post may be deleted for saying this, but she is some dose alright!

She should have had some questions fair enough, but really should have based them on allowing Coveney to reassure us all. But no. FF to her fingertips. Give them Blueshirts no quarter.

A totally rubbish interview, being belligerent for the sake of it IMV. Now is not the time for that. We are trying to be united, and in fairness we are.

Now Miriam, please do not demean decent and effective politicians with your inanity for the sake of it.

Honestly.

She is an absolute moron.

Sighing and grunting yesterday when a government rep wouldn’t agree with her that Ireland needs to accept the backstop has to be dropped now because Britain won’t allow it and we need to find another solution that facilitates both.

She was adamant it needs to be dropped.

Total impartial presenting. She is the worst in this country and is stealing a living.

Leroy42

Calltocall wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but is this the first sign of a change coming from the EU, as in now Merkel is offering the Uk 30 days to come up with an alternative to the Backstop, are they buckling a bit? I hope not

No, that has always been the case. The UK needs to sign the WA and provide alternative arrangements. If they can achieve that within 30 days then great, the PD will contain it and the WA is signed and everyone is happy.

30 days. If anything she has shortened the time frame as Johnson seemed to working off the basis of holding out until 31 Oct

bobmalooka

Calltocall wrote: »

Correct me if I’m wrong but is this the first sign of a change coming from the EU, as in now Merkel is offering the Uk 30 days to come up with an alternative to the Backstop, are they buckling a bit? I hope not

The option to come up with a way to make the backstop redundant has regularly been left as a qualifier by Coveney and others when asked to confirm if the WA was closed

Water John

What Merkel/EU have simply done is, speed up the next 21 months to 30 days.
So any alternatives that the UK might see as eliminating the need to exercise the Backstop, on the table now please.
We all know they don't have an answer.

fash

Brickster69 wrote:

What was he talking about " an un-elected prime minister ". Who elected him ot Varadkar. Even the EU President just scraped in after being elected by heads of government and was the only name on the ballot sheet.

I would suggest that the very last person to have a right to complain about something "scraping in" is a Brexiter.

ThePanjandrum

briany wrote: »

It's only the DUP who are really against an NI-only backstop. The ERG, I believe, can be talked round. Business leaders in NI were in favour of the proposal. The majority of NI voted to remain in the EU. Do Brexiteers in the rest of the UK really care what's done with NI? They don't seem to care about it the rest of the time.

If Johnson went back to the EU with the new-old proposal of the NI-only backstop, would they accept, or has that ship sailed?

The Brexit Party will stand by Nothern Ireland and Boris knows that if he crosses the Party, he is faced with a General Election where he will lose many seats.

Joe_ Public

My prediction is they'll come back in 30 days with a rehash of all that half-baked stuff that came out of the alternative arrangements commission - trusted trader, electronic forms, checks away from border, a few more bells and whistles - and say taa daaa, here you go, problem solved. And when EU shake their heads and say there's absolutely nothing new here, they'll get cross, stamp their feet and complain they're being unreasonable and just not interested in looking for solutions in the first place.

BonnieSituation

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The Brexit Party will stand by Nothern Ireland and Boris knows that if he crosses the Party, he is faced with a General Election where he will lose many seats.

Of course they will.

I'm sure it will be writ large in their manifesto.

bobmalooka

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The Brexit Party will stand by Nothern Ireland and Boris knows that if he crosses the Party, he is faced with a General Election where he will lose many seats.

The minority view in NI, a very important distinction

Edit: Election in that context is also a complex situation, BP competing with Tories directly will hurt the tories massively but they are only projected to win 0/1 seats even with their impressive polling (Blame FPTP system) - such a showdown would shift balance to even more of a stalemate or possibly Labour

Professor Moriarty

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The Brexit Party will stand by Nothern Ireland and Boris knows that if he crosses the Party, he is faced with a General Election where he will lose many seats.

The Brexit party won't stand by anyone with 5% and your average English Tory voter doesn't give a damn about the DUP and Northern Ireland.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

My prediction is they'll come back in 30 days with a rehash of all that half-baked stuff that came out of the alternative arrangements commission - trusted trader, electronic forms, checks away from border, a few more bells and whistles - and say taa daaa, here you go, problem solved. And when EU shake their heads and say there's absolutely nothing new here, they'll get cross, stamp their feet and complain they're being unreasonable and just not interested in looking for solutions in the first place.

Johnson made a serious gaffe today which isn't getting much publicity. In his bluff and bluster, having heard Merkel, he said that the onus was on Britain to come up with a solution to the backstop.

ThePanjandrum

marno21 wrote: »

Johnson says out of one side of his mouth there will be no checks on the border and out of the other side that they are ending freedom of movement the day after Brexit.

How can you end freedom of movement while maintaining an open land border with the EU with over 200 crossings?

The Common Travel Area remains, that's how.

BluePlanet

Joe_ Public wrote: »

My prediction is they'll come back in 30 days with a rehash of all that half-baked stuff that came out of the alternative arrangements commission - trusted trader, electronic forms, checks away from border, a few more bells and whistles - and say taa daaa, here you go, problem solved. And when EU shake their heads and say there's absolutely nothing new here, they'll get cross, stamp their feet and complain they're being unreasonable and just not interested in looking for solutions in the first place.

I was literally typing this same thing and decided to refresh this page to see new posts before i posted.

Personally i am not a fan of Merkel.

In the past few years i have thought she has been a bit tepid with her statements on Brexit and on more than one occasion, has veered off script in small ways that have allowed pro-Brexit media to spin her words and meaning.
Today is one of those days.

Flex

J Mysterio wrote: »

Thats not so much how I read it. It is Merkel saying the backstop is an insurance mechanism and suggests it stands untill arrangements can be found in 2 years, or 30 days

So, at no point does she say, 'yes, we will remove the backstop'. She makes clear it's insurance until there is a solution. She does offer some positivity - 'why not!' - but how can she now be seen as being intransigent with that daring do! And, she has now put that onus on Boris.

Perhaps it’s the cynic in me, but while the conference as a whole piece left no doubt and was the EU side being tactful, polite and professional and open to solutions versus sound bites and rhetoric from Johnson, that one edited piece looked to me as

Johnson: we need to remove the backstop as a whole as it doesn’t work
Chancellor Merkel: we need to solve this conundrum and we can in 2 years or 30 days
Johnson: I’m pleased to hear discussions have begun on this topic and accept the blistering 30 day timeline

Basically, made it sound like Chancellor Merkel was agreeing with Johnson’s assertion the backstop is unworkable and has to be removed, and agreeing in a rather enthusiastic way. Reading twitter and watching/reading UK media, it’s definitely being spun as this by some quarters

Perhaps this is just something Johnson wants to really quell a VNOC and it’s certainly gonna be a boost in the polls for him

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson made a serious gaffe today which isn't getting much publicity. In his bluff and bluster, having heard Merkel, he said that the onus was on Britain to come up with a solution to the backstop.

Yep, spot on. Imagine its going to get a lot of traction in tomorrows press, dynamic definitely significantly altered now:

"You [Merkel] rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions, those ideas, to show how we can address the issue of the Northern Irish border and that is what we want to do. I must say I am very glad listening to you tonight Angela to hear that at least the conversations that matter can now properly begin. You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days - if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that."

BonnieSituation

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The Common Travel Area remains, that's how.

And those not holding Irish or UK citizenship? How do you stop them?

Spanish Eyes

Water John wrote: »

What Merkel/EU have simply done is, speed up the next 21 months to 30 days.
So any alternatives that the UK might see as eliminating the need to exercise the Backstop, on the table now please.
We all know they don't have an answer.

That's my reading of it too, with a smirk behind my hand, sorry.

But the British Press are reading it as capitulation on behalf of the EU, no surprises there either.

Macron may turn out to be our greatest supporter and ally. Like most of us affected in EU he is sick of the British intransigence, dilly dallying, wasting time, hubris and all the rest of it. I hope I am right.

And I have no doubt that he and Merkel are doing a good cop/bad cop routine here too.

It has to stop somewhere. If Britain wants to leave with no deal they could go tomorrow. So there IS something they want. That is the weak point IMV.

May we live in interesting times....

road_high

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson made a serious gaffe today which isn't getting much publicity. In his bluff and bluster, having heard Merkel, he said that the onus was on Britain to come up with a solution to the backstop.

That’s progress at least- first bit of reality and truth I’ve heard pass his lips ever

ath262

so in 30 days Johnson & co are going to come up with some magic plan acceptable to both sides to replace the backstop that the teams of UK & EU negotiators couldn't come up with during two years of negotiations ? I see a more than a hint of unicorns here..

ThePanjandrum

Gwanoman wrote: »

I am in this exact situation.. We almost lost our jobs last year and were on 6 weeks notice at one stage..

I'm one of the few people from NI seconded to the EU..

It seems like a very racist policy from the EU.

Strazdas

BluePlanet wrote: »

I was literally typing this same thing and decided to refresh this page to see new posts before i posted.

Personally i am not a fan of Merkel.

In the past few years i have thought she has been a bit tepid with her statements on Brexit and on more than one occasion, has veered off script in small ways that have allowed pro-Brexit media to spin her words and meaning.
Today is one of those days.

She speaks in German (a language virtually no Brexiteer can speak) and often her words lost in translation. I would attach most of the blame to the UK press for any misunderstandings....they are spinning things like crazy.

bobmalooka

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson made a serious gaffe today which isn't getting much publicity. In his bluff and bluster, having heard Merkel, he said that the onus was on Britain to come up with a solution to the backstop.

He has free reign, British press have no appetite for holding him to anything.

Merkels words being twisted and Macron turning up the heat tomorrow will soon be repackaged as the EU ripping themselves up, Borris has them on the run etc.

Of course the grown ups can see that his arse was handed to him and he accepted the challenge (that he invented himself) of a solution in 30 days before his team had to row back on it before he finished his dinner - only positive thing it might do is focus the opposition on blocking him

Spanish Eyes

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yep, spot on. Imagine its going to get a lot of traction in tomorrows press, dynamic definitely significantly altered now:

"You [Merkel] rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions, those ideas, to show how we can address the issue of the Northern Irish border and that is what we want to do. I must say I am very glad listening to you tonight Angela to hear that at least the conversations that matter can now properly begin. You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days - if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that."

Wonder how it will be spun in the pro and anti Press?

It's OK, I can guess.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yep, spot on. Imagine its going to get a lot of traction in tomorrows press, dynamic definitely significantly altered now:

"You [Merkel] rightly say the onus is on us to produce those solutions, those ideas, to show how we can address the issue of the Northern Irish border and that is what we want to do. I must say I am very glad listening to you tonight Angela to hear that at least the conversations that matter can now properly begin. You have set a very blistering timetable of 30 days - if I understood you correctly, I am more than happy with that."

Those words will come back to haunt him.

road_high

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The Common Travel Area remains, that's how.

Im one of the ones that questions the CTA- I think the UK has far too many ex colonies and thus said migrants can pass into our country completely freely which I don't want and I don’t care if that sounds racist or not tbh.
We have had a large influx of migrants from countries like Nigeria and Pakistan- my suspicion is that they are using the CTA to get in here. I would favour tighter UK Ireland controls preferably GB-Ireland ones as the border is impossible to control

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson made a serious gaffe today which isn't getting much publicity. In his bluff and bluster, having heard Merkel, he said that the onus was on Britain to come up with a solution to the backstop.

Someone on the BBC News channel earlier said Johnson made a blunder and went off script. He clearly wasn't supposed to admit anything of the sort.