Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Borderhopper

MBSnr wrote: »

Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »

This is a nonsense story. Almost a Brexiteer project fear. Looks like this is the latest strategy as they are also saying they will only pay 9bn as opposed to 39bn

The Guardian originally ran the story in Jan 2019 saying officers will be trained after the PSNI asked for backup in case of no deal. Conceivably they could have been some training, so the story might have some validity.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/03/police-reinforcements-for-northern-ireland-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit-1000-officers-training-trouble-hard-border

Considering that Britain has a shortage of firearms qualified officers, I would take this with a pinch of salt. Perhaps they mean something along the lines of the old full time reserve of the RUC, who sat in the barracks?

In any case, both smugglers and dissident republicans would be happy with this. Smugglers know their area intimately (there are areas on the border that have roads that aren’t marked as roads on any maps) and dissidents for the same reason. What Met PC is likely to be familiar with where they’re patrolling. In the dark. With people that look like them but may not actually be them. In addition, the optics of the (perceived) new Black & Tans arriving would surely increase recruitment.

L1011

Borderhopper wrote: »

Considering that Britain has a shortage of firearms qualified officers, I would take this with a pinch of salt. Perhaps they mean something along the lines of the old full time reserve of the RUC, who sat in the barracks?

In any case, both smugglers and dissident republicans would be happy with this. Smugglers know their area intimately (there are areas on the border that have roads that aren’t marked as roads on any maps) and dissidents for the same reason. What Met PC is likely to be familiar with where they’re patrolling. In the dark. With people that look like them but may not actually be them. In addition, the optics of the (perceived) new Black & Tans arriving would surely increase recruitment.

Any "road" that isn't marked on OSM I'd be surprised - stuff not on every other map definitely exists.

MBSnr

Borderhopper wrote: »

Considering that Britain has a shortage of firearms qualified officers, I would take this with a pinch of salt. Perhaps they mean something along the lines of the old full time reserve of the RUC, who sat in the barracks?

In any case, both smugglers and dissident republicans would be happy with this. Smugglers know their area intimately (there are areas on the border that have roads that aren’t marked as roads on any maps) and dissidents for the same reason. What Met PC is likely to be familiar with where they’re patrolling. In the dark. With people that look like them but may not actually be them. In addition, the optics of the (perceived) new Black & Tans arriving would surely increase recruitment.

If it did happen, I'd guess the mainland UK officers would be used for general unrest duties, standing with riot shields in a line behind Land Rovers as a boost for the local police. But having no general interaction with the population there to avoid issues. That might then also free up PSNI officers for the border areas.

Strazdas

RobAMerc wrote: »

Can someone please tell me why the EU dont call out the UK on some of the lies or even just state that they wont be talking to the UK again unless they stop making up stories and their press aren't taken to account on some of the horse sh*t they are publishing ?

People like Neale Richmond and Guy Verhofstadt certainly have on Twitter (and are always met with a barrage of abuse from the fanatics / Telegraph readers for daring to call out the press). The Brexit disciples are often even far more rabid and hardline than the editorials.

J Mysterio

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Boris has a fairly lame response to Tusk...


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/brexit-boris-johnson-responds-to-tusk-s-mr-no-deal-jab-1.3996532

I know you are, but what am I?

trellheim

If it did happen, I'd guess the mainland UK officers would be used for general unrest duties, standing with riot shields in a line behind Land Rovers as a boost for the local police. But having no general interaction with the population there to avoid issues. That might then also free up PSNI officers for the border areas.

This would fit well with narrative of reimposing direct rule, as I said above, ramping up the pressure .

Charles Babbage

MBSnr wrote: »

If it did happen, I'd guess the mainland UK officers would be used for general unrest duties, standing with riot shields in a line behind Land Rovers as a boost for the local police. But having no general interaction with the population there to avoid issues. That might then also free up PSNI officers for the border areas.

PSNI officers don't know border areas either.

Varta

Every one and every nation is Johnson's 'friend'. War of words.

marno21

Headline on the FT:

Boris Johnson insists a US/UK trade deal must cut both ways

Prime minister says NHS strictly off limits and that Washington will need to compromise

https://www.ft.com/content/571efd82-c680-11e9-a1f4-3669401ba76f

It's difficult to know what to make of this circus anymore. It almost seems at this stage they are going to whirl themselves into no deal.

Atlantic Dawn

Spitting Image and Rory Bremner shows need to be resurrected before they leave for maximum laughs at their expense.

Forty Seven

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Spitting Image and Rory Bremner shows need to be resurrected before they leave for maximum laughs at their expense.

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

Infini

Forty Seven wrote: »

Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

It should be understood that its not that British people arent welcome it's that many are fed up with the British Media and the conservatives with their endless bull based on fantasies and lies instead of coherent and factual arguments. If people seem angry and frustated its because everyones sick of this pointless and utterly needed excercise.

Were also a little fed up with the endless lies and the simple fact that instead of conceding the argument in the face of facts that they'd throw tanturms and cause needless damage out of pathetic spiteful hate instead of just admitting they fùcked up.

The fact is none of this is necessesary and Brexit is a delusion of lies and bull**** and those who pushed this reek of criminality, irresponsibilituy and oppertunism. Theres no benefit for the common person this is a scam to suit corrupt and opperunistic elements of the conservative party and their idiotic frenemy Farage and people are suffering needlessly for it. Sterling losing a 3rd of its value in 3 years is a glaring point that too many over there are ignorant in all of this.

storker

Forty Seven wrote: »

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

So...you voted remain...but all the information about the downsides of leaving the EU that has come out since makes you think that leave is the better option? *Boggle*

Or is it that it's better do proceed with economic suicide so you can free up the news space form more stories about the royals?

The best way to deal with Brexit fatigue if you voted remain is do do everything you can to stop Brexit, or at least stop a hard Brexit, not say "bring it on", for crying out loud.

I've come to the conclusion that if you scratch a remainer, you're likely to find a Brexiteer underneath...

Kermit.de.frog

Forty Seven wrote: »

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

Good.


You can leave at midnight tonight.


Go for it.

storker

marno21 wrote: »

Headline on the FT:

Boris Johnson insists a US/UK trade deal must cut both ways

Prime minister says NHS strictly off limits and that Washington will need to compromise

https://www.ft.com/content/571efd82-c680-11e9-a1f4-3669401ba76f

It's difficult to know what to make of this circus anymore. It almost seems at this stage they are going to whirl themselves into no deal.

Not too long in the future, the whole Brexit fiasco will feature in case studies about groupthink and self-delusion on a monumental scale.

Kermit.de.frog

Washington will have to compromise? lol

Compromise on what!?

What does Britain produce that America is in desperate need of?

Oh right - nothing. Total DELUSION.

declanflynn

Forty Seven wrote: »

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Spitting Image and Rory Bremner shows need to be resurrected before they leave for maximum laughs at their expense.

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

Fair play old chap off with you then

Enzokk

Jizique wrote: »

Paywalled, but presume it is a load of bollocks

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/24/eu-has-stepped-back-brink-knows-cannot-risk-no-deal-brexit/

I somehow am able to read the opinion piece, which that is. Nowhere does the author actually say what the headline says. She talks about how things have changed but maybe that is natural as you have a new leader and it could not have continued as with the old leader.

Also she mentions the WA seems to have some movement with the comments by both Merkel and Macron, but that there will not be a new agreement. But how many changes would mean a new agreement?

Her last 2 paragraphs I will quote,

The UK side seems to be placing all its emphasis on the Irish backstop with the implication that its removal would be sufficient to make the Withdrawal Agreement acceptable to Parliament. This is not strictly true as Mr Johnson knows. Brexiteers are adamant about the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, the amount of the divorce settlement and a number of other things too. But he bargains on the fact that a victory on the Irish question which once seemed intractable would be so stupendously impressive that it would change the game altogether. Leo Varadkar would simply have to be persuaded to stop grandstanding and accept the arrangements that the EU deems acceptable which should be a relief to him and his countrymen since no deal would have hit them hardest.

Mr Johnson could then argue that, with the great problem of Ireland out of the way, the other troublesome matters could be settled during the subsequent negotiation of a Free Trade Agreement. This is not unrealistic: the atmosphere of euphoric relief on both sides which would follow the successful passing of a new (sorry, not new) Withdrawal Agreement might well be conducive to reasoned cooperation. After all, this whole EU campaign of threat and intimidation has been designed to stop us leaving. Once we have left, there will be little point in doing gratuitous damage to all of our people, will there? That’s the happy ending. I don’t want to think about the other one.

So she is backing on the EU stabbing us in the back and letting the Irish question go to the next phase. But she knows that will not be enough for some in the HoC. But doing that will be the start of unraveling the whole of the EU agreement and letting them go of all of their values in the process.

Failing that the best case scenario is that the EU will not "punish" the UK or Ireland in a no-deal situation because by then the damage is done.

So in short, an interesting take but not one grounded in reality for me. Firstly the backstop is there because of the red lines which has not changed, in fact they seems to have hardened. Secondly, Ireland will not be the worst affected but the UK will be and thirdly, it is not about hurting the other side but by following the rules. I cannot believe people being paid to write on Brexit cannot understand this.

As an aside, the previous pieces by the author is very much leaning towards Johnson. I doubt she will ever come to realize she has backed the wrong horse.

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

The EU allowed Greece into the Euro Zone when it should not have been permitted to do so. When the wheels came off the cart the EU ensured that Greece suffered rather than the EU itself.

Some rewriting if events there. The Greece government agreed a arrangement with the EU which it then thought it could have changed if it showed it was not backed by its people. Once the people rejected the deal, on the advice of the government, and requested better terms they were given the choice to leave the euro. The government knew this would be a disaster and walked back, looking for the agreement they thought they had.

But that one had been rejected, right? So the EU gave them a new deal on different terms, which the government then had to back.

Like we had to do here, Greece had to face the consequences of the economic policies that got them into the position they found themselves. Austerity itself is not bad, its not getting yourself out of it and continuing it as the UK seems to do that causes more headaches.

upupup

Forty Seven wrote: »

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

In Psychology,this is a normal reaction and what has happened to you and many others is a textbook reaction on a large scale.Its not Brexit Fatigue,its is normal human behaviour.

The Leave strategy focused on messages about Brexit that triggered strong emotional responses.

Herd instinct means that our opinions and behaviour is more heavily influenced by our social networks and what we think other people are doing than we are aware of.

Many of our judgements and behaviour are directly influenced by feelings of liking or disliking rather than rational consideration. And yet Remain constantly focused on rational arguments and the negative consequences of leaving the EU

People are also strongly motivated by the desire to be in charge of their own destiny. Leave tapped into the issue.the Remain campaign failed to tell a positive story about the overall goals and achievements of the EU

https://www.conversion-uplift.co.uk/psychology-behind-uk-leaving-eu/


Large scale Herd mentality could happen in any country in the world including Ireland

lawred2

Forty Seven wrote: »

We are leaving a union that no longer suits us. I was a remain voter but watching the last few years of nonsense has me wishing we just crash out on the 31st. This is shared by almost everyone I speak to. Brexit fatigue has changed the mood here drastically, watching discussions like this and the tone used by participants just enforce this view. Why would we want to stay now we are clearly not welcome? This won't end well but people no longer care. We just want it done. Come what may.

Forgive me for doubting your remain credentials. I've heard that trope tried on here many times before. Nearly always by recently registered posters.

The Union which apparently you voted for no longer suits you after three years of the values and privileges of that Union being laid bare for all to see!?

Yeah.. righto chap tally ho over the top you go then..

Forty Seven

Infini wrote: »

It should be understood that its not that British people arent welcome it's that many are fed up with the British Media and the conservatives with their endless bull based on fantasies and lies instead of coherent and factual arguments. If people seem angry and frustated its because everyones sick of this pointless and utterly needed excercise.

Were also a little fed up with the endless lies and the simple fact that instead of conceding the argument in the face of facts that they'd throw tanturms and cause needless damage out of pathetic spiteful hate instead of just admitting they fùcked up.

The fact is none of this is necessesary and Brexit is a delusion of lies and bull**** and those who pushed this reek of criminality, irresponsibilituy and oppertunism. Theres no benefit for the common person this is a scam to suit corrupt and opperunistic elements of the conservative party and their idiotic frenemy Farage and people are suffering needlessly for it. Sterling losing a 3rd of its value in 3 years is a glaring point that too many over there are ignorant in all of this.

Thanks for the seperation of people and institution. Unfortunately the description of government and media you have provided could be said of almost any in the world. Including Ireland. The media coverage of any political issue is laughably shallow and often biased or just downright wrong. The sensasionalism around some of your 'homeless' celebrities comes to mind. As for politicicians, idiotic, corrupt and opportunistic are fairly common terms for all politicians anywhere.

I am left hoping that the fallout of Brexit will lead to significant change in this country. We do need to look at questions such as immigration (the real cause of brexit) with fresh eyes. This is not just an issue here but when we leave I hope it starts a discussion on just how much of Africa and the middle east the Union can accomodate.

Saying it is pointless and uneeded betrays these concerns that people hold legitimately, services are creaking and that is the sole driver behind what was a democratic majority vote. Yes, they lied. Everybody knew that because their lips were moving. It does not take away from the result of the referendum. It was voted for and in a democracy that means it is going to happen. No matter the outcome. Can't have it any other way without looking like we are being ruled by Westminster. We are not ruled, we are represented, take away this comfort and there will be blood on the streets.

Forty Seven

storker wrote: »

So...you voted remain...but all the information about the downsides of leaving the EU that has come out since makes you think that leave is the better option? *Boggle*

Or is it that it's better do proceed with economic suicide so you can free up the news space form more stories about the royals?

The best way to deal with Brexit fatigue if you voted remain is do do everything you can to stop Brexit, or at least stop a hard Brexit, not say "bring it on", for crying out loud.

I've come to the conclusion that if you scratch a remainer, you're likely to find a Brexiteer underneath...

I have worked and lived in both Poland and Ireland. 15 years in Ireland. Why would I not be a remainer, I'd be mad not to be. I don't believe I said leave was a better option, I said I was sick of the entire subject and no longer cared.

Why so obsessed with the royals? It's such an Irish thing, this obsession. Most of us here neither care nor take interest in their nonsense and they don't factor in our lives.

I won't capaign in a campaign that is over. The leavers won a fair and square referendum. That's democracy, you can't change the mandate because it doesn't suit the few. That's just not cricket.

Forty Seven

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Good.


You can leave at midnight tonight.


Go for it.

I doubt my signature could make that happen any more than yours could withdraw you from the migration pact your leaders blundered into. Honestly, I expected a better standard of post in this thread. Your edginess does nothing to forster relations between the EU and the UK. This attitude is what has people backing no deal. The Germans are particularly bad, the Dutch are throwing a party, it gets tiresome.

Tell me how

Forty Seven wrote: »

I doubt my signature could make that happen any more than yours could withdraw you from the migration pact your leaders blundered into. Honestly, I expected a better standard of post in this thread. Your edginess does nothing to forster relations between the EU and the UK. This attitude is what has people backing no deal. The Germans are particularly bad, the Dutch are throwing a party, it gets tiresome.

Dutch party message is 'we'll miss you and be ready to have you back in future'.

Organiser spoke on radio here Friday.

Also, I'd be looking at example set by Brexit Party MEP's before blaming people for how relations have been soured.

Or Mark Francois, or Kate Hoey, or Isabel Oakshott, or Arron Banks and so on, and so on.

First Up

Forty Seven wrote: »

I doubt my signature could make that happen any more than yours could withdraw you from the migration pact your leaders blundered into. Honestly, I expected a better standard of post in this thread. Your edginess does nothing to forster relations between the EU and the UK. This attitude is what has people backing no deal. The Germans are particularly bad, the Dutch are throwing a party, it gets tiresome.

If you think its tiresome now, just wait until the UK is dealing with the EU from outside.

And by the way, after it leaves the UK will have complete control over how many from Africa and the Middle East it lets in.

Just like it has now.

Forty Seven

lawred2 wrote: »

Forgive me for doubting your remain credentials. I've heard that trope tried on here many times before. Nearly always by recently registered posters.

The Union which apparently you voted for no longer suits you after three years of the values and privileges of that Union being laid bare for all to see!?

Yeah.. righto chap tally ho over the top you go then..

So you think I am a leaver joining an Irish forum to what end exactly? I've been following this thread for a long time but it was another thread that had me sign up. Blatant lies about the UK construction industry wages in decline when in fact they are rising.

One of the benefits of Brexit it seems. Less immigrants = higher wages. Funny that doesn't match with the opposite we have been fed for decades.

Forty Seven

First Up wrote: »

If you think its tiresome now, just wait until the UK is dealing with the EU from outside.

And by the way, after it leaves the UK will have complete control over how many from Africa and the Middle East it lets in.

Just like it has now.

Can't you see what is happening? NGOs are offering a collection service and mainland Europe is soaking up the population of a country. Eventually they are eligible for free movement. We can't stop that while in the EU.

Forty Seven

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Washington will have to compromise? lol

Compromise on what!?

What does Britain produce that America is in desperate need of?

Oh right - nothing. Total DELUSION.

Aircraft parts, jet engines, aerospace products, precious metals, alcoholic beverages, pharmaceuticals and blood to name a few.

Don't forget the City of London is a major global supplier of financial services. Pretty sure Lloyds insure most large projects globally too.

We also buy the things they want to sell. As the worlds 5th largest economy we still have our uses to the outside world.

bobmalooka

Forty Seven wrote: »

Can't you see what is happening? NGOs are offering a collection service and mainland Europe is soaking up the population of a country. Eventually they are eligible for free movement. We can't stop that while in the EU.

Hmmmm,

UK hasn’t exercised the available control measures over immigration for decades - this is a policy of successive governments, not the EU or pesky NGO’s

First Up

Forty Seven wrote: »

Can't you see what is happening? NGOs are offering a collection service and mainland Europe is soaking up the population of a country. Eventually they are eligible for free movement. We can't stop that while in the EU.

The UK is under no obligation to accept non EU citizens. Some migrants may "eventually" become EU citizens but they would be a tiny fraction of the Asian, African and West Indian migrants the UK has already admitted (and will continue to admit to replace the Poles and Romanians who are leaving.)