Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Midlife

Forty Seven wrote: »

So you think I am a leaver joining an Irish forum to what end exactly? I've been following this thread for a long time but it was another thread that had me sign up. Blatant lies about the UK construction industry wages in decline when in fact they are rising.

One of the benefits of Brexit it seems. Less immigrants = higher wages. Funny that doesn't match with the opposite we have been fed for decades.

Construction wages in Ireland have rocketed in the last few years too. I think it may be too soon to determine that the correlation between lower immigrant numbers in the UK and a rise in wages in a sector means something.

I'm guessing from you posts though that you'd be happy to lay something at the door of immigration.

In terms of you saying immigration is the real cause of Brexit, you're happily oversimplifying it. Otherwise a commmonwealth exit would have also happened.

Britishness, nationalism, nostalgia has had a major role to play.

In 1999 the scots formed their parliment and defined it as 'Scotland in Europe'. They're happy with that identity.

Conversely, the notion of European partnership has never sat well with parts of Britian whose national identity has historically been defined by war, conquest and individualism.

I'm not knocking them for their history. It's just that you saying it's down to immigration is incorrect.

I also love how you're someone who's worked in Poland and Ireland and now has a problem with immigration. I'm curious how you arrive at that?

CelticRambler

Forty Seven wrote: »

The leavers won a fair and square referendum.

They didn't. They didn't win fairly, and the referendum was specifically set up and run as a non-binding opinion poll; and the question asked left out a key phrase: leave on what terms?

That's why the referendum itself was not "democratic" and neither is going for a hard Brexit based on the result.

Once again, though, you give us a perfect example of "the British" blaming the EU for your politicians making a mess of your internal affairs. That's what annoys the rest of us more than anything else.

As you said, the MPs in Westminster are your representatives, so in the last 20 years, why haven't you been sending people to the HoC who would fix the (perceived) problems like immigration from Africa?

DOCARCH

Forty Seven wrote: »

One of the benefits of Brexit it seems. Less immigrants = higher wages.

Another fantasy fed by the Brexitocracy to the working classes.

Tell me how

Forty Seven wrote: »

Aircraft parts, jet engines, aerospace products, precious metals, alcoholic beverages, pharmaceuticals and blood to name a few.

Don't forget the City of London is a major global supplier of financial services. Pretty sure Lloyds insure most large projects globally too.

We also buy the things they want to sell. As the worlds 5th largest economy we still have our uses to the outside world.

Moved to 7th biggest economy since referendum.

Discussed here Friday.

Forty Seven

DOCARCH wrote: »

Another fantasy fed by the Brexitocracy to the working classes.

It was actually the Guardian reported that. Not known for their support of Brexit.

Akrasia

Forty Seven wrote: »

I have worked and lived in both Poland and Ireland. 15 years in Ireland. Why would I not be a remainer, I'd be mad not to be. I don't believe I said leave was a better option, I said I was sick of the entire subject and no longer cared.

Why so obsessed with the royals? It's such an Irish thing, this obsession. Most of us here neither care nor take interest in their nonsense and they don't factor in our lives.

I won't capaign in a campaign that is over. The leavers won a fair and square referendum. That's democracy, you can't change the mandate because it doesn't suit the few. That's just not cricket.

If you’re sick of talking about Brexit than crashing out is the last thing you should support because it guarantees that Brexit will dominate the headlines for years to come. Holding a 2nd referendum and calling the whole thing off would allow the UK to forget about it and move on.

firemansam4

Forty Seven wrote: »

It was actually the Guardian reported that. Not known for their support of Brexit.

Is this a joke?

All I keep seeing popping up on my news feed is pro Brexit guff from the likes of the Guardian.

FrancieBrady

Akrasia wrote: »

If you’re sick of talking about Brexit than crashing out is the last thing you should support because it guarantees that Brexit will dominate the headlines for years to come. Holding a 2nd referendum and calling the whole thing off would allow the UK to forget about it and move on.

True, I would have thought 'Revoke the damn thing' would have been the natural place for a Remain voter to go...not Crash Out/No Deal which will make sure they go deeper into the doo daa and will consume British politics for a long long time to come.

Forty Seven

bobmalooka wrote: »

Hmmmm,

UK hasn’t exercised the available control measures over immigration for decades - this is a policy of successive governments, not the EU or pesky NGO’s

This is true, but decades ago we were not watching the migration of the scale we are now seeing since Libya was 'liberated'. Losing control over who we accept once EU passports are handed out scares people. The child rape gangs, the bomb attacks and people like Jihadi Jack have started a conversation (somewhat misguided given the home grown situations of most terrorists) around whether Islam is what we want in this country. The verdict appears to be no.

Forty Seven

firemansam4 wrote: »

Is this a joke?

All I keep seeing popping up on my news feed is pro Brexit guff from the likes of the Guardian.

You must be having a laugh? You cannot in all honestly believe what you just typed?

lawred2

It's a strange breed of remain voter that would seek to legitimise that referendum for the shady leave side.

firemansam4

Akrasia wrote: »

If you’re sick of talking about Brexit than crashing out is the last thing you should support because it guarantees that Brexit will dominate the headlines for years to come. Holding a 2nd referendum and calling the whole thing off would allow the UK to forget about it and move on.

I'm afraid your living in fantasy land if you think you won't hear much about Brexit if that happens.

The Brexit crowd over there are not just going to go away, and I actually think a second referendum there will return another leave vote.

They need to have there Brexit, all we can hope for is that they come to there senses and except some sort of deal maybe that just ties NI into the backstop.

Akrasia

Forty Seven wrote: »

So you think I am a leaver joining an Irish forum to what end exactly? I've been following this thread for a long time but it was another thread that had me sign up. Blatant lies about the UK construction industry wages in decline when in fact they are rising.

One of the benefits of Brexit it seems. Less immigrants = higher wages. Funny that doesn't match with the opposite we have been fed for decades.

The value of Sterling has fallen by 20% since 2016. That’s a decline of trillions of GBP worth of assets. And they haven’t even left yet

Midlife

Forty Seven wrote: »

This is true, but decades ago we were not watching the migration of the scale we are now seeing since Libya was 'liberated'. Losing control over who we accept once EU passports are handed out scares people. The child rape gangs, the bomb attacks and people like Jihadi Jack have started a conversation (somewhat misguided given the home grown situations of most terrorists) around whether Islam is what we want in this country. The verdict appears to be no.

Do you understand that the issues you've mentioned regarding migration have all stemmed pretty much from commonwealth migration?

CelticRambler

Forty Seven wrote: »

Aircraft parts, jet engines, aerospace products, precious metals, alcoholic beverages, pharmaceuticals and blood to name a few.

Don't forget the City of London is a major global supplier of financial services.

All areas that have grown significantly on the back of the UK's access to the Single Market, and will suffer from the sudden lack of access to same.

The trade in "precious metals", for example, is essentially a paper exercise and is heavily influenced by the import of gold from places like Switzerland for subequent trade within the EU. The biggest trader has relatively recently moved their operation to Ireland.

As discussed a few days ago, Airbus is known to be considering refocusing its operations on the Asian and American markets, and likely to move its UK manufacturing to those regions (taking advantage of EU FTAs) with a consequent hit to the British economy.

Do you accept that a hard Brexit will cause irreperable damage to the UK's export businesses?

lawred2

CelticRambler wrote: »

All areas that have grown significantly on the back of the UK's access to the Single Market, and will suffer from the sudden lack of access to same.

The trade in "precious metals", for example, is essentially a paper exercise and is heavily influenced by the import of gold from places like Switzerland for subequent trade within the EU. The biggest trader has relatively recently moved their operation to Ireland.

As discussed a few days ago, Airbus is known to be considering refocusing its operations on the Asian and American markets, and likely to move its UK manufacturing to those regions (taking advantage of EU FTAs) with a consequent hit to the British economy.

Do you accept that a hard Brexit will cause irreperable damage to the UK's export businesses?

Well in reality, that doesn't sound great for Airbus' European based manufacturing operations either does it?

Akrasia

firemansam4 wrote: »

I'm afraid your living in fantasy land if you think you won't hear much about Brexit if that happens.

The Brexit crowd over there are not just going to go away, and I actually think a second referendum there will return another leave vote.

They need to have there Brexit, all we can hope for is that they come to there senses and except some sort of deal maybe that just ties NI into the backstop.

There will be some hardcore brexiteers like there always were but the vast majority of people would just move on and they absolutely would vote to remain in a 2nd referendum. The demographics have changed and the leave vote is split between no deal, withdrawal agreement supporters.

firemansam4

Forty Seven wrote: »

You must be having a laugh? You cannot in all honestly believe what you just typed?

I get several articles posted on my news feed on my phone quite often and they have all been very much pro Brexit from the guardian from what I have seen.

So yes I can very much believe what I just typed, you can make out that I am imagining it or what ever you want, but I can only comment on what I seen.

I have never actually purchased the Guardian nor do I ever want to.

looksee

I think you are confusing them with the Telegraph.

CelticRambler

Forty Seven wrote: »

This is true, but decades ago we were not watching the migration of the scale we are now seeing since Libya was 'liberated'. Losing control over who we accept once EU passports are handed out scares people.

Why? Or rather why do you continue to re-elect representatives to Westminster that don't apply the rules of the EU? An EU passport doesn't give the holder the right to do anything other than visit for a few months? If they can't find a job, or justify the value of their presence in their host country, then you can kick them out send them back.

Oh, and in case you didn't realise, the UK is not part of the Schengen Area, so you've got even more control than most of the rest of the EU.

So what exactly is the problem again?

firemansam4

Akrasia wrote: »

There will be some hardcore brexiteers like there always were but the vast majority of people would just move on and they absolutely would vote to remain in a 2nd referendum. The demographics have changed and the leave vote is split between no deal, withdrawal agreement supporters.

But the poles are not supporting this theory, pro Brexit parties are still polling very high, and I dare say in another referendum they just seem much more motivated to vote than the remain crowed who just seem to have lost interest now.

Akrasia

lawred2 wrote: »

It's a strange breed of remain voter that would seek to legitimise that referendum for the shady leave side.

Aaron Banks is now being investigated for Diamond Smuggling in connection with the Russians. The biggest political donor in UK history is an asset of the Russian state intelligence services and the campaign he ran was a textbook propaganda disinformation campaign.

He didn’t have to convince everyone, just the small percentage of ‘pursuadables’

And we have seen from many of the brexit supporting posters on this thread, that people can be convinced of facts that are not true, and reasons that are irrational

firemansam4

looksee wrote: »

I think you are confusing them with the Telegraph.

I'll have to check the next few articles that pop up, but I'm pretty sure it was the Guardian logo I keep seeing with what would be mainly pro Brexit articles.
But then maybe I'm not seeing some of the remain stuff for some reason?

CelticRambler

firemansam4 wrote: »

I get several articles posted on my news feed on my phone quite often and they have all been very much pro Brexit from the guardian from what I have seen.

Your phone's doing weird things! Can't remember the last time I saw a pro-Brexit article in the Guardian. Maybe the odd contrary opinion piece, but the Guardian is a rare voice of sanity amongst the UK press.

Forty Seven

Midlife wrote: »

Do you understand that the issues you've mentioned regarding migration have all stemmed pretty much from commonwealth migration?

Clearly stated that in the brackets.

Right. I'm out. Things to do and I see there is no real discussion here. Enjoy your echo chamber. I may return but I don't have time for this bombardation of closed opinion. The Guardian being pro brexit should have you all cringing if you actually endorse that comment.

Rejoice in your victory, another Brit vanquished by sheer force of numbers. How many have given up talking to you lot now?

bobmalooka

firemansam4 wrote: »

I'll have to check the next few articles that pop up, but I'm pretty sure it was the Guardian logo I keep seeing with what would be mainly pro Brexit articles.
But then maybe I'm not seeing some of the remain stuff for some reason?

Guardian is almost exclusively pro-remain/ realistic on brexit I would think.

McGiver

Akrasia wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

It's a strange breed of remain voter that would seek to legitimise that referendum for the shady leave side.

Aaron Banks is now being investigated for Diamond Smuggling in connection with the Russians. The biggest political donor in UK history is an asset of the Russian state intelligence services and the campaign he ran was a textbook propaganda disinformation campaign.

He didn’t have to convince everyone, just the small percentage of ‘pursuadables’

And we have seen from many of the brexit supporting posters on this thread, that people can be convinced of facts that are not true, and reasons that are irrational

I've been telling this all the time. The Russians are a significant player in this.

Brexit is so misfortunate, because it's aligned several things at once - Russian elite interests, Russian oligarch interests, US oligarch interests, UK elite interests, UK oligarchs interests, English dissatisfaction and systemic failure of UK political system.

firemansam4

Forty Seven wrote: »

You must be having a laugh? You cannot in all honestly believe what you just typed?

bobmalooka wrote: »

Guardian is almost exclusively pro-remain/ realistic on brexit I would think.

Sorry looks like I am getting it mixed up with another UK paper that keeps popping up on my feed. Don't generally follow the uk press much, but have been following Brexit some what and keep seeing lots of pro Brexit articles on my feed.

Nody

Forty Seven wrote: »

Aircraft parts, jet engines, aerospace products

Someone must have forgotten to tell Trump that; remember a certain company getting trouble due to Boeing? Yea; US don't really care a whole lot nor does China as they are ramping up their own civilian aviation industry instead.

precious metals

What exactly?

alcoholic beverages

This is going to be hit by sky high tariffs so yea; they can do just fine without it.

pharmaceuticals

You mean the stuff that will no longer be certified in Europe or US by default? Yea; that manufacturing is likely to go the same route as cars I'm sorry to tell you.

Don't forget the City of London is a major global supplier of financial services. Pretty sure Lloyds insure most large projects globally too.

Because of it's connection to EU; once it leaves and becomes a third party there's no reason not to go to NY or Singapore instead and of course there's already the move of the EU related parts of the business to, well, EU. London will diminish and continue to diminish over time as other third party markets step up to get a bigger share from EU. No special rules to protect London after all and seeing how UK government's failure to follow EU data rules while in EU you can guess how things will go while outside EU.

We also buy the things they want to sell. As the worlds 5th largest economy we still have our uses to the outside world.

Well yes; look forward to one sided trade deals with UK being told how the deal will look like; mainly we get to import what we want and we limit what you can sell back. Don't like it? Well tough luck because you're the country without a FTA and UK is very small compared to the blocks out there (you know; how most of the world do deals these days in trade blocks). Oh and China, India etc. will demand more visas as part of the deal; that was what you wanted right; more non EU immigration?

Akrasia

firemansam4 wrote: »

But the poles are not supporting this theory, pro Brexit parties are still polling very high, and I dare say in another referendum they just seem much more motivated to vote than the remain crowed who just seem to have lost interest now.

The vast majority of polls put remain very comfortably in the lead and in a referendum campaign with an actual deal being voted on, all of the unicorns will have bolted from the stable and a lot of the ‘No deal’ people would probably abstain in protest

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/uk-poll-results/