Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Tell me how

Christy42 wrote: »

Has anyone pointed out to the man that sidelining the democratically elected parliament is, err, undemocratic?

More than happy to ignore the people when it comes down to it it seems!

As an aside, would Boris be better able to take a meaningless wording change and sell it to Brexiteers as a UK win to get the WA through?

Supporters are actually championing the work Dominic Cummings is doing while talking about the 'undemocratic EU' without a hint of awareness of the irony involved.

woohoo!!!

Christy42 wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Ignore the Johnson smiles and bluster, the fact is he's in a weaker position than May. He's relying on the speaker for his majority. So of course he wants to side line parliament. But no matter, it still amounts to the UK negotiating with themselves, again. The EU have been done since November, with just minor changes to the political declaration. Everything else is white noise.

Has anyone pointed out to the man that sidelining the democratically elected parliament is, err, undemocratic?

More than happy to ignore the people when it comes down to it it seems!

As an aside, would Boris be better able to take a meaningless wording change and sell it to Brexiteers as a UK win to get the WA through?

Don't think so, it's just isolate the backstop and hope the EI blinks, just a more vocal effort of what they've been up to for the past 3 years. They have nothing else. Interestingly, these moves to side line parliament might just bring to a head a constitutional crisis. The whole edifice is not fit for purpose. More grist to the mill for Scotland and NI to escape the nightmare union. BTW, the de Souza case has been going since 2015, contemptible stuff from the home office.

woohoo!!!

Tell me how wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

Has anyone pointed out to the man that sidelining the democratically elected parliament is, err, undemocratic?

More than happy to ignore the people when it comes down to it it seems!

As an aside, would Boris be better able to take a meaningless wording change and sell it to Brexiteers as a UK win to get the WA through?

Supporters are actually championing the work Dominic Cummings is doing while talking about the 'undemocratic EU' without a hint of awareness of the irony involved.

It's the we have to beat our enemies mentality, hence the WW rhetoric. The new element that the whole Brexit debacle introduced is that it's domestic enemies also. That'll end well.

Enzokk

Strazdas wrote: »

The bit about the Gibraltar info being out of date is a total red herring. Tory spokesmen admitted the report was updated and published on August 1st.....it was this new version that the Sunday Times got their hands on.

Whether the document was updated or just had a new date added to it, there are a couple of issues. Firstly, the new date rules out the idea that it was leaked by a minister in May's cabinet as they would not have had access to it. So the assertion that it was leaked by someone with a grudge in the HoC is a lie.

Secondly, if the assertion is that it is old and they have spent money in the meantime, it has been less than 4 weeks since the document has been released. If the solution to no-deal Brexit was just wasting away money on preparations it would have been stated.

fash wrote: »

Here is Mujtaba Rahman's full take on the trip to Berlin/Paris. Of note, the plan indicated seems to be about using the backstop as a dead cat.
Any solution will still need to comply with the GFA etc- and it is for the UK to make proposals.

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1165914691132170240

Interesting thread, but I think it confuses itself somewhat. It talks of the dreaded movement and that there will be talks because that has been mentioned. But then the last tweet just blows all of his work out of the water.

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1165914734652198912?s=20

'The substance of Irish border therefore remains the intractable problem - with no easy solutions. Is the EU's door really open? Or is this smoke & mirrors to avoid blame? V difficult to read. But in light of last week, we are raising odds of deal slightly, from 10% to 15%. ENDS'

So the Irish border is still the circle that cannot be squared, but he spent the time before telling us that there may be movement by the EU at the last minute?

He is right though, the problems of Brexit is still there because you cannot leave the single market and the customs union and have an open border. May ran up to this problem and Johnson will as well. Bringing more energy to the problem will not fix it.

McGiver

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

I doubt it. You seem to have trouble reading headlines in tweets. When it suits your argument. So I think I'll take any statement you make without supporting links as pure BS.

You wanted the links, sorry, I thought that they were so obvious you didn't need to ask.

Operation Yellowhammer stood down

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/articles/news/operation-yellowhammer-planning-no-deal-brexit-stood-down

Gibraltese Government says that the report is an old one

https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/press-releases/sunday-times-yellow-hammer-report-out-of-date-wrong-on-gibraltar-6032019-5197

Thanks for your anticipated apology.

Gibraltar Government says that the section dealing with Gibraltar is outdated not that the whole report is outdated. Learn how to read and interpret English text.

I flew in to Dublin Airport yesterday from Edinburgh. There was a digital sign (new to me) saying how long the wait was to go through passport control. 5 mins for EU and 25 mins for non-eu. I know we have the CTA, so it'll be ok for us, but can you imagine a plane load of British people arriving in Spain for the holidays?

Carnage and we'll never hear the end of it.

Probably be spun as, "The unorganized/lazy foreigners no good at their job"

McGiver

Christy42 wrote: »

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Ignore the Johnson smiles and bluster, the fact is he's in a weaker position than May. He's relying on the speaker for his majority. So of course he wants to side line parliament. But no matter, it still amounts to the UK negotiating with themselves, again. The EU have been done since November, with just minor changes to the political declaration. Everything else is white noise.

Has anyone pointed out to the man that sidelining the democratically elected parliament is, err, undemocratic?

More than happy to ignore the people when it comes down to it it seems!

As an aside, would Boris be better able to take a meaningless wording change and sell it to Brexiteers as a UK win to get the WA through?

The thing is, the brainwashed part of English population, which could be up to 40%, have a clear appetite for a "strong leader" (there were polls on thar recently), so any slide towards authoritarianism and derision of liberal parliamentary democracy doesn't concern them. This could end up very badly...

Stop moaning ffs

McGiver wrote: »

The thing is, the brainwashed part of English population, which could be up to 40%, have a clear appetite for a "strong leader" (there were polls on thar recently), so any slide towards authoritarianism and derision of liberal parliamentary democracy doesn't concern them. This could end up very badly...

‘Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities’.
They’re already slipping to the hard right. Only last week it was revealed single women will no longer be allowed access IVF as children of single mothers are more likely to be troubled and the whole anti social behavior thing. Britain in 2019.

Stop moaning ffs

Keir Starmer on the radio earlier seems to be rowing in a totally different direction to Corbyn.
Just what are Labour playing at at all? Do they know themselves?

https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1166249628817403904?s=21

Peregrinus

Enzokk wrote: »

. . . Interesting thread, but I think it confuses itself somewhat. It talks of the dreaded movement and that there will be talks because that has been mentioned. But then the last tweet just blows all of his work out of the water . . . .

'The substance of Irish border therefore remains the intractable problem - with no easy solutions. Is the EU's door really open? Or is this smoke & mirrors to avoid blame? V difficult to read. But in light of last week, we are raising odds of deal slightly, from 10% to 15%. ENDS'

So the Irish border is still the circle that cannot be squared, but he spent the time before telling us that there may be movement by the EU at the last minute?

He is right though, the problems of Brexit is still there because you cannot leave the single market and the customs union and have an open border. May ran up to this problem and Johnson will as well. Bringing more energy to the problem will not fix it.

I don't think the last tweet is completely at odds with what has gone before - he makes the points in tweets 10, 11 and 12 that it's up to Johnson to bring forward proposals, that those proposals have to protect the GFA and respect the integrity of the SM, that this is a very high bar for progress, and that nothing will happen unless IRL is satisfied.

The upshot of this is that, while he estimates the chances of a deal have risen slightly, they are still very low. It's a 15% shot rather than a 10% shot. Frankly, I'm not sure that's a signficant difference.

road_high

Deleted User wrote: »

I flew in to Dublin Airport yesterday from Edinburgh. There was a digital sign (new to me) saying how long the wait was to go through passport control. 5 mins for EU and 25 mins for non-eu. I know we have the CTA, so it'll be ok for us, but can you imagine a plane load of British people arriving in Spain for the holidays?

Carnage and we'll never hear the end of it.

Probably be spun as, "The unorganized/lazy foreigners no good at their job"

Who cares? Sometimes in life actions have consequences (voting for Brexit) and it's high time they felt a bit of it.

Call me Al

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I flew in to Dublin Airport yesterday from Edinburgh. There was a digital sign (new to me) saying how long the wait was to go through passport control. 5 mins for EU and 25 mins for non-eu. I know we have the CTA, so it'll be ok for us, but can you imagine a plane load of British people arriving in Spain for the holidays?

Carnage and we'll never hear the end of it.

Probably be spun as, "The unorganized/lazy foreigners no good at their job"

I read somewhere on a Brexit-loving article (please don't ask me to find it! I wouldn't have a clue where I saw it by now) that Spain and Portugal were planning to dedicate a passport queue especially for their UK blue-passported visitors.
Maybe it makes logistical sense at these airports.

Peregrinus

road_high wrote: »

Who cares? Sometimes in life actions have consequences (voting for Brexit) and it's high time they felt a bit of it.

I'm unbothered by the fact that they're going to feel a bit of it. I'm seriously bothered by the fact that we're going to feel a bit of it.

farmchoice

Call me Al wrote: »

I read somewhere on a Brexit-loving article (please don't ask me to find it! I wouldn't have a clue where I saw it by now) that Spain and Portugal were planning to dedicate a passport queue especially for their UK blue-passported visitors.
Maybe it makes logistical sense at these airports.

if you are ever wondering why otherwise intelligent informed people voted for brexit, think on this example above.


there is part of the British psyche that believes that Britain is truly better then every other country and not only that but deep down every other country knows this too.
so there is no question of others lumping Britain in with the rest of the ''third countries'', everywhere, the world over, special exceptions will be made for Britain, special treatment because Britain is Britain and the British are British and once you understand this there is no need to worry about the small things.

road_high

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm unbothered by the fact that they're going to feel a bit of it. I'm seriously bothered by the fact that we're going to feel a bit of it.

Nothing we can do- just prepare and minimise the effects and use alternatives where possible.

road_high

Call me Al wrote: »

I read somewhere on a Brexit-loving article (please don't ask me to find it! I wouldn't have a clue where I saw it by now) that Spain and Portugal were planning to dedicate a passport queue especially for their UK blue-passported visitors.
Maybe it makes logistical sense at these airports.

Yea because they're going to spend extra money/staff on seperate arrangements for just one country :rolleyes:. Classic Brexit delusion

woejus

farmchoice wrote: »

if you are ever wondering why otherwise intelligent informed people voted for brexit, think on this example above.


there is part of the British psyche that believes that Britain is truly better then every other country and not only that but deep down every other country knows this too.
so there is no question of others lumping Britain in with the rest of the ''third countries'', everywhere, the world over, special exceptions will be made for Britain, special treatment because Britain is Britain and the British are British and once you understand this there is no need to worry about the small things.

Your assumption that this special queue will move at the same rate as the rest is amusing. Wouldn't put it past the Spanish or Portuguese to subject the forrins to detailed, time consuming examination of documents. Maybe charge a special fee!

L1011

UK Border Force entry queues for all are already hideous; most Irish people never see them due to CTA but they make Dublin look super-fast. So many of the Brits are used to huge queues one-way.

Portugal has to interrogate non-EU documents due to its own colonial legacy issues so those queues crawl, and crawl. Land after certain flights and it could be multiple hours.

Professor Moriarty

Passport queues will be the least of Britain's problems.

First Up

I don't think a dedicated line for UK is out of the question at the big Spanish holiday airports. The French allow Monaco and Swiss passports to use the EU line in some places.

Its up to the airport and if they think it will keep business going they just might.

I wouldn't expect it in Frankfurt or Paris though.

CelticRambler

Enzokk wrote: »

So the Irish border is still the circle that cannot be squared, but he spent the time before telling us that there may be movement by the EU at the last minute?

Once again, this notion of a "last minute" change of mind/agreement is complete nonsense. The EU has a deal signed, sealed and ready to be delivered if the HoC gives it the green light. There is no way the EU can cave/blink/compromise at one minute before midnight on the 31st October, come up with something different and have it back in Westminster and through the HoC within the following 60 seconds. So anyone spouting the "down to the wire" line is inevitably also saying that Britain will have to ask for yet another extension.

The only alternative process would be for the HoC to draft an agreement that was "operational, reasonable and acceptable", indicate to the EU that Westminster would vote in favour of it, present it for approval/rubber-stamping by the EU Council at the meeting scheduled for 17-18 October, and have it back in Westminster to be signed off by the Queen before the 31st. Hardly "last minute" stuff.

ArmaniJeanss

road_high wrote: »

Yea because they're going to spend extra money/staff on seperate arrangements for just one country :rolleyes:. Classic Brexit delusion

It may actually be true, as reported in January in the Independent (broadly anti-Brexit newspaper).

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-portugal-travel-no-deal-ehic-passport-check-driving-permit-licence-a8742201.html

Not a lot of flesh on the bones in the article though.

54and56

Call me Al wrote: »

I read somewhere on a Brexit-loving article (please don't ask me to find it! I wouldn't have a clue where I saw it by now) that Spain and Portugal were planning to dedicate a passport queue especially for their UK blue-passported visitors.
Maybe it makes logistical sense at these airports.

Yep, I read or saw that too. I think it was on Sky news a few months ago when there was a trade delegation from Portugal to the UK.

The UK is Portugals #1 source of tourists so it's absolutely in their interests to ensure post Brexit that their non EU passport channel operates as smoothly as possible.

Stop moaning ffs

Really good thread on NI politicians on Brexit. Love that last line on the DUP. Bang on the money.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1166274101134184448?s=21

Seth Brundle

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Gibraltar is not part of the United Kingdom.

Correct. Its an overseas territory and part of the "UK family" (whatever that is!).
It has also been referred to as a "colony of the British Crown" which for some reason angers the British. This may be because as a colony it increases the likleihood of Spain taking control of it. That anger is probably misguided as it was the British that first called it a colony though right up until 1981!

CelticRambler

Call me Al wrote: »

I read somewhere ... that Spain and Portugal were planning to dedicate a passport queue especially for their UK blue-passported visitors.
Maybe it makes logistical sense at these airports.

First Up wrote: »

The French allow Monaco and Swiss passports to use the EU line in some places.

Switzerland and Monaco are within the Schengen Area - no need for passport checks when entering France!

But many regional French airports have no flights from anywhere other than the UK and Ireland, i.e. non-Schengen. I don't know if there are airports in Spain with such a limited service, but if so, Brexit won't actually make any difference ... except maybe for the Irish passport-holders, who'll find themselves lumped in with the Brits.

54and56

road_high wrote: »

Yea because they're going to spend extra money/staff on seperate arrangements for just one country :rolleyes:. Classic Brexit delusion

It really isn't. Why would Portugal want to pi$$ off it's #1 source of tourists? What would that achieve for them? Economic reality will trump pettiness.

It's very easy to re-balance the # of EU dedicated lanes/booths Vs the # of non EU lanes/booths to ensure a smooth transition for all visitors coming to your country to spend their money.

First Up

54&56 wrote:

The UK is Portugals #1 source of tourists so it's absolutely in their interests to ensure post Brexit that their non EU passport channel operates as smoothly as possible.

Lisbon isn't bad but the non Schengen line in Faro can be awfully slow. I doubt they would give the UK their own line but some places might let them keep using the EU line for a bit.

First Up

CelticRambler wrote:

Switzerland and Monaco are within the Schengen Area - no need for passport checks when entering France!

True but even before Schengen they were treated as EU for passport purposes.

54and56

In order to pull the rug from the deluded ERG/David Davis types who believe the EU will cave 3 weeks, 3 days or even 3 minutes before 23:00 on Oct 31st could Leo prorogue the Dail in early Oct and not reconvene until Nov 1st? Without a Dail to vote through a new WA no amount of last minute pressure could force Ireland to drop the backstop before Oct 31st and it would test BoJo's commitment to leaving on Oct 31st "do or die".

If proroguing the HoC is good enough for BoJo to force through his preferred version of Brexit surely doing the same here would be an equally valid thing to do to ensure our preferred version of Brexit was protected?