Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Call me Al

PeadarCo wrote: »

Surely is that not the contradiction in a lot of the opposition to the backstop. A lot of opponents suggest technology as a solution. However if you really believe technology is a solution you should have no issue with the backstop as technology will render its use unnecessary.

Exactly.. But he's being given oxygen on Sky with this rant about the government without this contradiction being flushed out more thoroughly.

We here in ireland just need to take their "solemn guarantee" and trust them.
Because they've believe they've behaved so honourably throughout this whole process.

What a farce of a government they really are.

bobmalooka

Leroy42 wrote: »

So the plan still seems to be that if they threaten enough the EU will fold.

Seems that the media are fully behind the plan and that it is working.

However, from EUs POV what is the benefit of conceding? Sure No Deal is avoided but at the cost of the SM and even if they spin that they will have lost all credibility with any other trade negotiations starting with the UK itself.

With the added benefit that Johnson will have ultimately failed in his singular act.

It’s the point that is missed time and time again in brexit land

- what is the cost to the EU in agreeing to the (perhaps unfinalised) list of UK demands?

It is not just monetary, it is not just egg on face, it is existential.
A dismantling of the SM to (attempt to) appease the fringe element of an increasingly hostile, soon to be former member.

It is an exponentially worse outcome for the EU than any threats or loss of trade.

For that reason alone, talk of blinking and backdowns and stupid Irish government is laughable.

I refuse to believe that Whitehall don’t understand this already - but don’t see how current posturing gives them the space to actually achieve anything.

prawnsambo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don’t really interact with too many older Brexiters. If it weren’t for my relatives, I wouldn’t interact with any. There seems to be so many rifts in British society that I’m not sure if it can be fixed never mind how one might go about starting to.

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

farmchoice

prawnsambo wrote: »

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

unfortunatly they wont, they will double down '' its all THEIR fault look what THEY have done to us.
of course this is where the tabloid media come in to tell them exactly who THEY are...... its us.

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

If it wasn't going to mess us up badly, I'd be delighted if they went today - soft, crash out or whatever they're having themselves. Sadly, we have skin in the game.

Seth Brundle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There seems to be so many rifts in British society that I’m not sure if it can be fixed never mind how one might go about starting to.

I think an honest and open discussion is required to overcome the differences so that people have a netter understanding of the pros and cons to leaving the EU.
However, the way the media are in the UK, this won't happen.
I honestly don't know what's going to happen in the UK in five or ten years but it's gradually getting worse. Brexit has allowed so many bigoted views to become normalised that there is a steep mountain to somehow get on top of it.
That there is no political leadership in the UK just allows the situation get progressively worse each day.

prawnsambo

farmchoice wrote: »

unfortunatly they wont, they will double down '' its all THEIR fault look what THEY have done to us.
of course this is where the tabloid media come in to tell them exactly who THEY are...... its us.

Who'll be listening? The world will have moved on. And there are plenty of people in their own country who'll be pointing their fingers at them.

Seth Brundle

prawnsambo wrote: »

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

I agree in many ways but the person with the microphone will be the one listened to (or whatever the phrase is!).
Following a no-deal exit, the UK media will just repeat the lies propogated that the poverty or food shortages or whatever is because of the EU.

ancapailldorcha

prawnsambo wrote: »

In my saner moments I often think a good cold, hard brexit would go a long way. Nothing like your face being pushed up against reality to make you rethink some life choices.

But they people who are agitating for it the most are the ones with the least or no skin whatsoever in the game. The property owning pensioner class will be fine come what may. They'll lap up whatever propaganda is trotted out to disguise the resulting mess while the next generation will be stripped of their rights to live and work in Europe unimpeded to say nothing of job losses.

farmchoice

prawnsambo wrote: »

Who'll be listening? The world will have moved on. And there are plenty of people in their own country who'll be pointing their fingers at them.

Oh i agree this whole conversation is one they are having with themselves really, the point I'm making is that those charlatans who caused this will make sure they dont get the blame they will apportion it elsewhere

prawnsambo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But they people who are agitating for it the most are the ones with the least or no skin whatsoever in the game. The property owning pensioner class will be fine come what may. They'll lap up whatever propaganda is trotted out to disguise the resulting mess while the next generation will be stripped of their rights to live and work in Europe unimpeded to say nothing of job losses.

I'm not sure they won't be affected. Issues with medicine shortages should surely impact them more. Lack of nurses in the NHS, difficulties when going on holidays with all the additional paperwork and falling pound, falling house prices, children perhaps having job losses, can't get avocados in Sainsburys etc.
A lot of impacts coming their way.

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But they people who are agitating for it the most are the ones with the least or no skin whatsoever in the game. The property owning pensioner class will be fine come what may. They'll lap up whatever propaganda is trotted out to disguise the resulting mess while the next generation will be stripped of their rights to live and work in Europe unimpeded to say nothing of job losses.

As demographics change, every day since the referendum sees 644 brand new Remain voters.

dancingwith

Can MP's and Parliament keep blocking Brexit?, and if so, surely Brexit will never happen as there wont be a majority for it ?

ancapailldorcha

dancingwith wrote: »

Can MP's and Parliament keep blocking Brexit?, and if so, surely Brexit will never happen as there wont be a majority for it ?

They can. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. Not the PM, the people or the government. Parliament.

Igotadose

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They can. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. Not the PM, the people or the government. Parliament.

Uhh... but the timer expires on 1 November doesn't it?

For the first and probably last time I listened to about 15 minutes on LBC live, where they interviewed a Brexit Party candidate for a seat somewhere.


God help England.

ballsymchugh

dancingwith wrote: »

Can MP's and Parliament keep blocking Brexit?, and if so, surely Brexit will never happen as there wont be a majority for it ?

yes but EU have to agree to give them an extension, and patience is all but gone on EU side.

declanflynn

Igotadose wrote: »

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They can. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. Not the PM, the people or the government. Parliament.

Uhh... but the timer expires on 1 November doesn't it?

For the first and probably last time I listened to about 15 minutes on LBC live, where they interviewed a Brexit Party candidate for a seat somewhere.


God help England.

I hope he doesn't help them

robinph

Surely everyone on both sides now knows that the £350 million bus was a lie, but when a leaver throws the line back at you that "both sides lied" what are they actually referring to?

What lies about the EU are they claiming the remain campaign was making?

listermint

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't think Johnson is stupid enough to think that he can actually prorogue Parliament. Cummings might be sufficiently arrogant but the few consistent things that have shone through Johnson’s career as his concern for his own well-being and his legacy. Cummings comes across as wanting to take a sledgehammer to the entire Westminster edifice. I don’t think Johnson is a fool. Deeply flawed but not a fool. He knows that a no deal Brexit come Hallowe’en destroys both his party and the UK as a geopolitical union. I think he is trying to goat Parliament into giving him an out to request an extension so he can call a GE with his aim being to increase his majority. I can’t see the EU, especially Macron facilitating this for anything less.

On a more depressing note, I went to see my aunt over the weekend. It all went lovely until we had a barbeque yesterday. One her friends decided to moan about how terrible young people are because they won’t work two jobs, are lazy, addicted to their phones. Also included were lamentations that Brexit will somehow be stopped by Macron and the EU, America is booming because somewhere in New York, buildings are being constructed and something about non-white patients in hospitals having too many relatives in to visit. I probably should have expected this but they decided to shove their fingers in my face (literally). I’m not really sure what inspires such fervour. It seems like many people are paranoid about Brexit being surreptitiously sabotaged despite detailed and incessant media coverage of the SNP, Labour, Lib Dems and Greens.

I don’t really interact with too many older Brexiters. If it weren’t for my relatives, I wouldn’t interact with any. There seems to be so many rifts in British society that I’m not sure if it can be fixed never mind how one might go about starting to.

I always find a good stop to such nonsense, is to ask what two jobs she worked in simultaneously to support her family.

See what the answer is.

Seth Brundle

Igotadose wrote: »

For the first and probably last time I listened to about 15 minutes on LBC live, where they interviewed a Brexit Party candidate for a seat somewhere.


God help England.

Was this it?
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1166348874199523328

Seth Brundle

I found this interesting tweet just after I found the above.

https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1166342980044775425

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I found this interesting tweet just after I found the above.

https://twitter.com/EmmaKennedy/status/1166342980044775425

If the calculator is to be believed, and that's a big if, then it's a pittance.

funkey_monkey

If BREXIT is delayed into next year, will the UK have to implement the anti tax avoidance directive?

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package/anti-tax-avoidance-directive_en

The Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive contains five legally-binding anti-abuse measures, which all Member States should apply against common forms of aggressive tax planning.

Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019.

'Should' does not mandate that it is done. Why not 'shall' or 'must'?

Igotadose

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Was this it?

Yes, it was. I thought the candidate was some sort of AI, she was so... so... empty of any rational thought.

Consider this person might gain a seat in Parliament as a result of a potential upcoming election.

Deity help England indeed if this sort gets into Parliament.

Jizique

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1166296145049636864

Not sure what to think of this

Seth Brundle

Jizique wrote: »

https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1166296145049636864

Not sure what to think of this

So is the backstop not really dead then?
Doesn't really matter. The British have shown that they cannot be trusted. Without something absolute and guarranteed (and it doesn't yet exist!), the backstop will remain in place.

Water John

So the WA which they said, was dead, is not dead?? Do they know what they want?
Is it, we want something but the EU won't give it to us?

A certain cat springs to mind.

ancapailldorcha

listermint wrote: »

I always find a good stop to such nonsense, is to ask what two jobs she worked in simultaneously to support her family.

See what the answer is.

Excellent point. Sadly, it wasn't what you would call a conversation.

Strazdas

robinph wrote: »

Surely everyone on both sides now knows that the £350 million bus was a lie, but when a leaver throws the line back at you that "both sides lied" what are they actually referring to?

What lies about the EU are they claiming the remain campaign was making?

It's a red herring anyway. All Remainers were doing was proposing to keep the 50 year status quo. Whether they told a lot of lies or a few, people knew the end result would be the status quo.

Leavers on the other were proposing ripping up the status quo, with no plan or idea what to replace it with......it was their lies that posed a massive gamble or spin on the roulette wheel with the country's future (to the point where their lies have led us to the brink of No Deal).

ballsymchugh

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So is the backstop not really dead then?
Doesn't really matter. The British have shown that they cannot be trusted. Without something absolute and guarranteed (and it doesn't yet exist!), the backstop will remain in place.

the headcase francois has said he won't vote for the withdrawal agreement even without the backstop. he has his eyes on the £39bn.

i'm thinking that they would just throw the DUP under the bus and leave NI in the CU/SM.