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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)
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Sam Russell wrote: »Well, yes you are correct about the need for the CU, but it is the SM that makes a hard border essential. We could tolerate a bit of a leaky border if the standards are OK, and let the tariff situation sit. It is a problem with diesel leaking across the border, but it is tackled. The same would happen with customs based smuggling. ....
The SM is indeed vital for a control-less border. It is vital for e.g. milk from NI to be processed in RoI and be allowed to be mixed with 'EU' milk. There is milk from the RoI currently being processed in NI and sold back on the EU/RoI consumer market.
But unless there is a CU or a FTA with very low tariffs on agri-products smuggling could be a major problem.
Beef will have have 40-50% or higher tariffs, milk 27% or higher.
Some farmers in the border region will, I guess, have cows that should pay duty each time they are moved from one field to another
https://ahdb.org.uk/uk-and-eu-import-tariffs-under-no-deal-brexit EU and expected UK MFN ratesSam Russell wrote: »The EU VAT for NI requires full communication with Ireland. I do not think that it would affect the UK side, just exports from NI to Ireland would not attract a VAT refund.
Of course exporting NI beef to the UK could be interesting, as how Irish or British is the beef? Would it be tariff free?
The VAT rates in NI and RoI will not be more different just because of Brexit. Consumer smuggling is a relative minor question compared to businesses being hit by much worse VAT payment conditions across the 'No Deal' border.
I did see some of the problems with VAT/import VAT when trading with Eastern Europe before 2004, but it's a long tome ago.
I haven't checked to WA on rules for VAT - have you?
I believe all larger farm animals will have an ID-chip, but maybe some Irish farmer could describe the practical rules used on the island?
Lars
PS! The EU27 can't lower its WTO MFN tariffs just for NI - MFN tariffs are valid world wide for all 3. countries.0 -
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Not easy, but clearly CU is required, but there should be scope for limited exemptions such as exist for various enclaves and exclaves.The SM is indeed vital for a control-less border. It is vital for e.g. milk from NI to be processed in RoI and be allowed to be mixed with 'EU' milk. There is milk from the RoI currently being processed in NI and sold back on the EU/RoI consumer market.
But unless there is a CU or a FTA with very low tariffs on agri-products smuggling could be a major problem.
Beef will have have 40-50% or higher tariffs, milk 27% or higher.
Some farmers in the border region will, I guess, have cows that should pay duty each time they are moved from one field to another
https://ahdb.org.uk/uk-and-eu-import-tariffs-under-no-deal-brexit EU and expected UK MFN ratesThe VAT rates in NI and RoI will not be more different just because of Brexit. Consumer smuggling is a relative minor question compared to businesses being hit by much worse VAT payment conditions across the 'No Deal' border.
I did see some of the problems with VAT/import VAT when trading with Eastern Europe before 2004, but it's a long tome ago.
I haven't checked to WA on rules for VAT - have you?
Lars
PS! The EU27 can't lower its WTO MFN tariffs just for NI - MFN tariffs are valid world wide for all 3. countries.
The problem with the VAT is that the rates are not trivial, unlike many tariffs. It is an area open to huge effect on Gov finances. Exports out f the EU get VAT refunds, but a corresponding import can be omitted, either because the item is below a threshold (as in personal import) or by fraud.
The close reporting between NI and Ireland is needed to limit this. Exports from either side of the border do not get refunds, and get charged the appropriate VAT if the exporter currently falls into that requirement.
It is clear Westminster folk do not get any of this.0 -
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Sam Russell wrote: »Not easy, but clearly CU is required, but there should be scope for limited exemptions such as exist for various enclaves and exclaves.
There will be no - as in zero, nada, non - negotiations about anything unless and until the WA text ( without transition periods) is ratified - not now, not after a 'No Deal' Brexit.
NADA!
The UK must be shown it is impossible to sneak around the WA text - citizens rights, the border and the money - and survive as a 'decent' country.
A 'No Deal' and the EU27 will not help the UK but only itself. This will crash the UK's political system and shortly after its economy.Sam Russell wrote: »The problem with the VAT is that the rates are not trivial, unlike many tariffs. It is an area open to huge effect on Gov finances.
Exports out f the EU get VAT refunds, but a corresponding import can be omitted, either because the item is below a threshold (as in personal import) or by fraud.
Refund of VAT out of the EU can be and often is very restricted for private persons. This may require UK VAT-law changes for refunds out of the UK and changes in EU27 member state VAT-laws for goods into the UK.
Without a deal fraud will most likely be a much bigger problem in many more areas then VAT. Brexit is in no way a smart move.
Additionally there are potential huge problems with paying VAT upon crossing the borders and not using the rules for inter EU member trade. Liquidity demands can kill trade not least for SMEs.
But again the VAT rates will not change due to Brexit and with proper no refund rules for private people, the new VAT problems should be limited to businesses.
Lars 0 -
There will be no - as in zero, nada, non - negotiations about anything unless and until the WA text ( without transition periods) is ratified - not now, not after a 'No Deal' Brexit.
NADA!
The UK must be shown it is impossible to sneak around the WA text - citizens rights, the border and the money - and survive as a 'decent' country.
A 'No Deal' and the EU27 will not help the UK but only itself. This will crash the UK's political system and shortly after its economy.
Refund of VAT out of the EU can be and often is very restricted for private persons. This may require UK VAT-law changes for refunds out of the UK and changes in EU27 member state VAT-laws for goods into the UK.
Without a deal fraud will most likely be a much bigger problem in many more areas then VAT. Brexit is in no way a smart move.
Additionally there are potential huge problems with paying VAT upon crossing the borders and not using the rules for inter EU member trade. Liquidity demands can kill trade not least for SMEs.
But again the VAT rates will not change due to Brexit and with proper no refund rules for private people, the new VAT problems should be limited to businesses.
Lars
This post 100%.
Any goodwill available to the UK which could be used to tweak a rule here or there to smooth things not covered by the WA evaporated once BoJo was elected and started shouting about the WA being dead and the UK divorce bill not being owed etc.
In the space of a few weeks he's gone from the WA being completely dead but with the "good bits" being rescued and when they didn't work to not talking to any EU leaders until they agreed to drop the backstop and when that didn't work to declaring Merkel saying if the UK can pull a rabbit out of the hat which negates the need for a backstop and is immediately implementable that the EU will listen as some kind of victory.
BoJo is only interested in one thing and that's getting a HoC majority for BoJo. If that means a hard Brexit which destroys a huge number of lives plus his own economy and political system that seems to be a price BoJo is willing to pay.
We should do nothing to facilitate him.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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