Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Stop moaning ffs

One thing is certain. When they do finally return and the queen gives her speech it’s going to be fully barbed and very much directed at Johnson et al. She’s already said she’s frustrated with the lot of them ‘lack of leadership’ she said apparently

Itssoeasy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm incredibly shocked that the Monarch has allowed herself to be drawn into the Brexiters' project like this. It sets a terrifying precedent, frankly that the sovereign might just override Parliament when it's convenient. I know the Queen normally tries to remain outside Politics but her time is coming to an end and her successor might have different ideas.

The Brexit project has been getting less democratic and more totalitarian by the day. Proroguing Parliament like this simply cements the idea that the people of this country should be as far removed from the Brexit process as possible and today represents another step towards that goal.

It's still possible that Johnson is still hoping to force Parliament's hand with this step. The period of prorogation seems mercifully short for possibly that reason. Why the Queen has set this precedent though I can't fathom. I doubt she'll befall the same fate that the last monarch who did something similar in 1642 but she has now politicised herself in a dangerous way for her institution. If Brexit pans out the wrong way, expect the idea of abolishing or restricting the monarchy to edge closer to the political mainstream.

But isn't that one of the big claims the brexiters have about the EU though ?

is_that_so

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect it'll make little, if any tangible impact on the Brexit process. However, it's odd that the Queen would let herself be dragged into this for no apparent reason. Her interests would have been better served by staying away from this mess in my opinion.

Seeing as the Brexit process is nowhere I'd agree. It's the Privy Council that seems to have OKed it and she may not have been allowed a choice.

prawnsambo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect it'll make little, if any tangible impact on the Brexit process. However, it's odd that the Queen would let herself be dragged into this for no apparent reason. Her interests would have been better served by staying away from this mess in my opinion.

She can't avoid it afaik. A Queen's speech is what happens at the start of every session of parliament. And the date for it is always in the power of the government of the day. It would be a constitutional crisis if the Queen had refused it.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I suspect it'll make little, if any tangible impact on the Brexit process. However, it's odd that the Queen would let herself be dragged into this for no apparent reason. Her interests would have been better served by staying away from this mess in my opinion.

I don't really get what you mean. She just did what is always done. How did she let herself get dragged into it?

BonnieSituation

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I agree. I’d love to see you post that in the thread on reunification. The unibots in there would lose their minds.

Do you mean the one in "Current Affairs/IMHO"?

Dear God no!

The moderation is not stringent enough for me. I really mean that!

Do a wee search on the threads that have popped up in "Politics" and you'll see quite clearly my posts and treatises on the matter!

We are long overdue a new thread on reunifiation in here though it must be said...

Anyways...

---

The Queen was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. It's disgraceful, but she has to act on the advice of the PM.

Go back to when May went to the Palace and recommended Alexander de Pfeffel to be PM. The Queen is not stupid, she clearly knew that his claims to commanding the house were tenuous at best, but she couldn't really disregard May's recommendation.

Reunification, Scottish independence and destruction of the Tories feels so so so close now!

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You can't "revenge" people [sic] into reunifying their country. It's a basket case because of British mismanagment for 100 years.

Every single party in this State - bar Renua - supports reunification as a matter of course. It doesn't even come into question that we wouldn't have a referendum in the event of the North voting "Yes".

We need a half way house. Who wants 30 DUP members in the Dail?

I'd vote for unification without doubt. But it needs to still have some distance. Stormant up and running, their own police force, their own independent parades commission, and other issues that have to be settled right there.

London also has to cover most of the cost as they have been doing up to now. Germany truly understands the complexity of reuniting a country, so they will support us.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't really get what you mean. She just did what is always done. How did she let herself get dragged into it?

She's largely stayed out of Brexit-related matters though and let Parliament get on or not get on with it.

Itssoeasy

For a country called the United Kingdom it's anything but.

MrMusician18

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

One thing is certain. When they do finally return and the queen gives her speech it’s going to be fully barbed and very much directed at Johnson et al. She’s already said she’s frustrated with the lot of them ‘lack of leadership’ she said apparently

The "I'm sick of the lot of them" is a cop out to be honest. It's a line used just to maintain her own personal/monarchy popularity by sitting on the fence.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

One thing is certain. When they do finally return and the queen gives her speech it’s going to be fully barbed and very much directed at Johnson et al. She’s already said she’s frustrated with the lot of them ‘lack of leadership’ she said apparently

The Queen doesn't write the speech...her PM and Cabinet do.

I wonder will the queen feign an illness and send her commissioner to give the speech.
She did that when she was preggers with the children which is hardly a viable excuse this time.

CrabRevolution

There seems to be a "Heads I win, tails you lose" approach taken by brexiters to political rules and conventions.

For example they say it would be wrong for the Queen to refuse the prorogation request because it would violate tradition.
But apparently it's fine to dismiss the house of commons from the democratic process solely to achieve a political aim, despite this also being a violation of tradition.

Or how when it came to the WA, the opinion of the PM and cabinet didn't matter and parliament is the only authority with the power to accept or reject the withdrawal agreement.
Yet now parliament is an irrelevance and it's for the best that it be silenced in order to carry the will of the PM and cabinet?

brickster69

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it actually is. By definition.

Not really.

247 constituencies of Conservative MPs voted Leave
148 constituencies of Labour MPs voted Leave


Including all parties, that’s a total of 415 seats where the people told Parliament to leave the EU

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She's largely stayed out of Brexit-related matters though and let Parliament get on or not get on with it.

She hasn't actively gotten involved here though. She doesn't have any real power to deny the PM's request unfortunately.

Stop moaning ffs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

She's largely stayed out of Brexit-related matters though and let Parliament get on or not get on with it.

There’s a good explainer here on could she have refused

https://www.thejournal.ie/uk-brexit-constitutional-crisis-4785371-Aug2019/

MrMusician18

Although the guardian wouldn't be there place to find particularly pro monarchy postings, the fury that's being directed at Her Maj below the line there is quite something to behold.

A relatively sleepy August has ended with a bang that's for sure.

um7y1h83ge06nx

The British like to give out about the French but the French would probably be rioting or at least having major protests if this happened in Paris.

Professor Moriarty

brickster69 wrote: »

Not really.

247 constituencies of Conservative MPs voted Leave
148 constituencies of Labour MPs voted Leave


Including all parties, that’s a total of 415 seats where the people told Parliament to leave the EU

You're right. It's confusing. People for a crash out. MPs against. Best put it back to the people and put those dumbass MPs in their place.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

brickster69 wrote: »

Not really.

247 constituencies of Conservative MPs voted Leave
148 constituencies of Labour MPs voted Leave


Including all parties, that’s a total of 415 seats where the people told Parliament to leave the EU

Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU. That legitimate vote should be respected.

Professor Moriarty

Derek Eager Registrar wrote: »

The British like to give out about the French but the French would probably be rioting or at least having major protests if this happened in Paris.

It's strange. Where are all the student protests?

BluePlanet

I think the case can be made for the EU to agree another extension on the basis that it's just plain entertaining watching the UK pull themselves apart.

trellheim

247 constituencies of Conservative MPs voted Leave
148 constituencies of Labour MPs voted Leave

That was back when most government figures were spouting waffle like "easiest deal ever" . If you are driving and someone says "I think its down this road to the ball game " and everyone agrees, then it becomes clear when you end up at a cul-de-sac beside the sewage farm , you dont come out with crap like

"we have to honour the will of the people, into the poo we go "

what you will actually say is "lets back up, I think we missed a turn "

VinLieger

brickster69 wrote: »

Not really.

247 constituencies of Conservative MPs voted Leave
148 constituencies of Labour MPs voted Leave


Including all parties, that’s a total of 415 seats where the people told Parliament to leave the EU

Well this completely disingenuous because the election was held a year after the referendum. Do you have the numbers for how many MP's were elected who were remain vs leave?

VinLieger

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Although the guardian wouldn't be there place to find particularly pro monarchy postings, the fury that's being directed at Her Maj below the line there is quite something to behold.

A relatively sleepy August has ended with a bang that's for sure.

Exactly why she didn't want to be drawn into this id say, no matter what she does she can't win, Johnsons just finding another candidate to shift the blame onto.

brickster69

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You're right. It's confusing. People for a crash out. MPs against. Best put it back to the people and put those dumbass MPs in their place.

I know it is normal for referendum results that go against the EU to be re-run. But in the Uk it is normal to respect that result.

josip

So the Queen is requested to suspend parliament, a 'request' she cannot actually refuse.
At the end of which, she read's the Queen's speech to parliament, except that it's not written by her, it's written by the government.
It's all a bit of a farce really, isn't it?

Infini

Itssoeasy wrote: »

For a country called the United Kingdom it's anything but.

The more it goes on the more were basically seeing a rerun of the disintegration of Yugoslavia only this time it's the UK that's going to break apart. This cancerous level of human stupidity caused by these idiots has gone on for so long that it's only now were beginning to see the real consequences beginning to take shape.

The conservative's need to go and their ranks needs to be purged of idiot's like moggs and co for being 5th column MP's for the Brexit Party/UKIP brigade, I believe it was John Major who said it that the quality of politicians today is lacking compared to 20 years ago and it shows clearly in all of this how incompetent and damaging they've become.

I don't like it but I honestly think the UK needs to be allowed to drop out of the EU as the consequences of ideological stupidity and ignorance need to be seen to even remotely convince those who've been poisoned with lies and misinformation expecially from the likes of the Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express. Any and all attempts to blame the EU by the UK simply can be responded with "You were warned, you didn't listen, you own, created and executed this failure yourselves, own your problems of your own creation".

We may have to bear the short term damage of their foolishness but we don't have to take it lying down either expecially since unless it's a humanitarian issue (Medicine, food supplies), we can block them from any deal with the EU until they cooperate and stop being idiotic at least in the medium to long term we could end up with a UI and be able to keep this kind of toxic politics mostly off the island (DUP will hopefully implode in their crowning moment of idiocy to the relief of everyone up there).

At least once this is all said and done we can get a good laugh out of all of this...

ToBeFrank123

Look to be finally approaching the endgame now and my money is on No Deal at this stage as Johnson has wrestled back control of the process. I can't see it extending beyond 31st October and both sides are too far apart to come up with a deal.

Professor Moriarty

brickster69 wrote: »

I know it is normal for referendum results that go against the EU to be re-run. But in the Uk it is normal to respect that result.

Yeah. UK democracy is doing an amazing job.

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's strange. Where are all the student protests?

Student loans finished the radical student I'm afraid.