Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Frank Bullitt

Can someone shed a bit of light on this.

IF...a big if, there was a boarder in the Irish Sea, does that mean the mainland UK will still be going for a No Deal exit?

Podge_irl

GM228 wrote: »

When someone says "they voted to leave", it's often met with the counter "but they didn't vote for no deal" type argument.

The point is it's not really a valid argument because you never get a vote on the terms of any referendum or the means of achieving the result of such a referendum.

Except you do, constantly. When we vote in referendums we are voting on specific language that will be inserted/deleted/amended in the constitution. There is no question on implementation. There may be a debate on consequences but that is a different matter.

It is an incredibly valid argument because it was an incredibly poorly run and defined referendum and ultimately the most you could say is that it was giving an indication to parliament as to what to do. And now certain factions are attempting to ignore parliament.

A Dub in Glasgo

Gintonious wrote: »

Can someone shed a bit of light on this.

IF...a big if, there was a boarder in the Irish Sea, does that mean the mainland UK will still be going for a No Deal exit?

No, the border in the sea is the original backstop therefore for it to happen, the UK would need to ratify an (amended) WA

Strazdas

fash wrote: »

The other thing with a proper referendum is that the government supports the change and fights to status quo. It's their job to explain and sell the change they seek.
Having a referendum where the government supports the status quo- allowing others to describe a super vague and unrealistic change was a really stupid idea

A referendum on leaving the EU should only have been held if the government was in favour of leaving. "You tell us what to do and make up the country's laws for us" was an insane way of doing things.

Igotadose

Podge_irl wrote: »

Except you do, constantly. When we vote in referendums we are voting on specific language that will be inserted/deleted/amended in the constitution. .

In Ireland's political system, yes, Not in the UK's - there, Parliament reigns supreme. Period no ifs, ands, buts. Referenda are at best advisory. Parliament can ignore them.

And has been regularly pointed out, the UK has no Constitution so no specific lingo to insert. Ireland's a fairly modern democracy, seems to get a lot of this stuff right.

Spanish Eyes

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I honestly never saw them going down this route, obviously underestimated them. Cant but not think its a huge mistake though, thousands already gathering in parliament square and they sound mad as hell. This cant end well for Johnson, can it? If he wants to stoke a reaction from the other side, put the ball in their court as it were, he'll get all that with a bit of interest i think.

Not in front of a tv now but where did you see this. Great if true, and might just stoke more. Both sides have a say here really.

MrMusician18

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is fascinating to be living through history.

But it is bizarre just the same. I suppose they are relying on the punch drunk electorate to say, great.... get on with it or something. Had to be done and all that.

British people in the main are stoic.

That's a myth. They are no more stoic than anyone else.

Podge_irl

Igotadose wrote: »

In Ireland's political system, yes, Not in the UK's - there, Parliament reigns supreme. Period no ifs, ands, buts. Referenda are at best advisory. Parliament can ignore them.

And has been regularly pointed out, the UK has no Constitution so no specific lingo to insert. Ireland's a fairly modern democracy, seems to get a lot of this stuff right.

Sure. But then the UK also has no real history of referendums so if we restrict ourselves to the UK then "you never know how a referendum result will be implement" becomes an equally facile argument. Either way, the concept that the referendum was not a vote for No Deal is valid.

Seth Brundle

Bambi wrote: »

I'm starting to wonder what the mood in the DUP camp is like, loyalism has a long history of cutting off its nose to spite its face but, given the effect a no deal brexit will have on their constituents and their votes, you wonder if Alrene et al are getting a dose of the yips now.

As it might help deliver a no-deal Brexit thus keeping those nasty Taigs in their place, the DUP are happy with the idea of suspending parliament...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/arlene-foster-and-dup-welcome-johnson-s-move-to-suspend-uk-parliament-1.4000016

Stop moaning ffs

Foghladh wrote: »

In the event of a referendum on the Unification of Ireland how do you envisage it being worded?

That will be a simple binary question. Difference is to get to that point it will all be mapped out to the last full stop and decimal and have passed through several citizens assemblies north and south before it gets to the point of going to the country.

We do referenda is very couple of years here. Probably better than anyone and they always pass after the slip up of Lisbon.
The brits should have asked us for advice before even setting forth on this but in their hubris they didn’t think it would be a problem.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I honestly never saw them going down this route, obviously underestimated them. Cant but not think its a huge mistake though, thousands already gathering in parliament square and they sound mad as hell. This cant end well for Johnson, can it? If he wants to stoke a reaction from the other side, put the ball in their court as it were, he'll get all that with a bit of interest i think.

Scuffles breaking out between pro and anti protestors.

is_that_so

GM228 wrote: »

When someone says "they voted to leave", it's often met with the counter "but they didn't vote for no deal" type argument.

The point is it's not really a valid argument because you never get a vote on the terms of any referendum or the means of achieving the result of such a referendum.

The biggest problem about the original Brexit referendum is that they don't do them and voters assumed that there were just two simple opinions Yes or No. As we know from our own there is a third option, a nominal No, which is really a vote for the status quo on a given question. A different form of the question might yield a clearer Yes or No outcome. As it is constitutional change we are looking at we tend to be a bit more reflective on how we are voting .

Stop moaning ffs

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It will likely come in the form of a constitutional amendment.

We have a written constitution and referendums are to allow or reject changes to that written constitution.

Pretty sure we’d have to rewrite or come up with an entirely new constitution. Could be wrong but Leo and others have said a much.

Strazdas

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure. But then the UK also has no real history of referendums so if we restrict ourselves to the UK then "you never know how a referendum result will be implement" becomes an equally facile argument. Either way, the concept that the referendum was not a vote for No Deal is valid.

The 2016 referendum was the most reckless and irresponsible of gambles by Cameron. The public 'instructing' its government to undertake massive constitutional change when it doesn't want to do this and thinks it is a bad idea was always going to spark off huge upheaval and political chaos.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Igotadose wrote: »

In Ireland's political system, yes, Not in the UK's - there, Parliament reigns supreme. Period no ifs, ands, buts. Referenda are at best advisory. Parliament can ignore them.

And has been regularly pointed out, the UK has no Constitution so no specific lingo to insert. Ireland's a fairly modern democracy, seems to get a lot of this stuff right.

Until today

Spanish Eyes

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's a myth. They are no more stoic than anyone else.

I beg to differ. They seem to accept things as they are.

I do realise there were marches and all that, but it didn't work, and then back to their warrens they went.

No such thing as Manning the Barricades over there at all for political issues.

I do realise that the poll tax was opposed and there was mayhem regarding that, but this is not the same. Most people seem to just accept it.

I really hope there will be a peaceful opposition to this proroguation.

Just sit down in your droves at the Motorway entrances. Obviously let the police know. See what would happen there.

devnull

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Scuffles breaking out between pro and anti protestors.

Are you really surprised?

Many families in the UK have people who are not talking to each other and are at loggerheads every day about Brexit. I know many people who dare not speak about it as it always provokes a huge row and things getting out of control. There's even people who avoid visiting their relatives when the news is on to try and avoid yet another argument about Brexit where they are on polar opposite sides.

This is the country that the Tories have created, they have divided a nation so far that it has become a completely toxic environment which has created massive divisions and severely fractured society as a whole. It has poisoned everyday life in the UK and whatever about immigration resulting in Broken Britain as the Tories used to say this whole charade has damaged society far more.

I do not condone any kind of scuffles or violence and never will, but at the end of the day this is the country that has been created by politicians rhetoric, actions and the division they've sown over the past few years. The politicians have not just stood idly by whilst the country becomes like this, they've heavily encouraged it.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I honestly never saw them going down this route, obviously underestimated them. Cant but not think its a huge mistake though, thousands already gathering in parliament square and they sound mad as hell. This cant end well for Johnson, can it? If he wants to stoke a reaction from the other side, put the ball in their court as it were, he'll get all that with a bit of interest i think.

The EU/Ireland have done the right thing in all of this, despite the baiting from the UK side. Stay silent as possible, leave the ball in the UK court, and let them screw it up all by themselves.

Brexit has taken the form of an extreme zealous religion in the UK. Applauding the subversion of their democratically elected representatives is proof of that.

Brexit has to happen, it's the only way that eyes can be opened at this stage.

sjb25

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Until today

Thats what Cromwell said

Spanish Eyes

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The EU/Ireland have done the right thing in all of this, despite the baiting from the UK side. Stay silent as possible, leave the ball in the UK court, and let them screw it up all by themselves.

Brexit has taken the form of an extreme zealous religion in the UK. Applauding the subversion of their democratically elected representatives is proof of that.

Brexit has to happen, it's the only way that eyes can be opened at this stage.

Ireland is not on their radar though. They don't give a fig about us apart from trying to blame us for their incompetence.

Nor do they care about NI either apart from the Ten DUP who help their one vote majority at the end of the day.

It is increasingly difficult to see politics as anything but my way or the highway now.

woejus

GM228 wrote: »

From the current petition:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157.json

From the previous Article 50 petition:-

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584.json

Put it into something like this to make it slightly more readable.

UK figures are broken into seats I think

http://jsonviewer.stack.hu/

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Scuffles breaking out between pro and anti protestors.

TBH it looks more like a cross between the Last Night of Proms and the elderly section at Glastonbury.

Tame.



P.S. Sky News got more than they bargained for with Calvin

briany

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Brexit has to happen, it's the only way that eyes can be opened at this stage.

You can open their eyes all you want. Whether they'll choose to see is another matter.

The religious zealotry is an apt comparison. In the fundamentalist Christian's eyes, any 'act of god' must be good, because God himself is good. The same idea will be true for the hardcore of Brexit. Any calamity coming from Brexit will be good because Brexit is, by definition, good.

Headshot

FrancieBrady wrote: »

P.S. Sky News got more than they bargained for with Calvin

Do tell

FrancieBrady

Headshot wrote: »

Do tell

Some guy they lined up to interview called Calvin who went on a rant about being arrested in a plot to kill Boris last year...then he started shouting at others and they had to cut away with library footage.
Ended report abruptly, with Calvin shouting 'Kill Boris' in the background.

dublinman1990

I do wonder in what way how the British electorate will take stock of this idea from BJ & his government.

A lot of these people are not stupid though in not seeing the woods for the trees. If they voted for remain in the original EU referendum. The level of potential damage coming from an extended suspension of parliament could be catastrophic & unnecessary. All of the important laws now cannot be made for the people of the UK for the next 5 weeks. The local councils in England & parliaments in Wales & Scotland cannot be passed either. That, to my mind, sounds completely mind numbing & depressing from the UK's goverments POV. BJ is really having his cake & eating it by heaving his country into an unstoppable & unpalatable oblivion. From my perspective he has done his job & done it well if this opinion was thought came about from a super rich & wealthy UK tory party member/voter.

For other UK party voters though who mainly vote for opposition parties; that message could appear to become very different to their eyes & ears. There is no method in their minds to suggest that this idea from BJ & the monarchy would become sensible. The level of anger who voted for Remain & voted leave by mistake in the 1st referendum could be ferocious in that they will do everything in their power, if an election was called & a referendum afterwards, to vote for parties that do not in any way relate to the word 'Tory' or 'Brexit Party' under any circumstance.

They will give the ruling party a relevant stance & message by saying words or opinions that they will never ever extend an opportunity to vote for the tories ever again. And the impact that could come across with expressing that message could become very widespread to the point that Britain will be very close to verging on the edge of imploding itself into an even bigger disaster than that was ever predicted if the reality of a no-deal Brexit is real for the UK. If an early election was called; the idea that BJ could become PM with a huge mandate by the UK electorate is just a farcical idea now because it will never happen in the eyes & ears of the British electorate who want to treat their own country with the respect & treatment that it deserves in allowing it to not go ahead with Brexit at all. Labour & Lib Dems could actually have the potential here to really take up a huge share of the Tory vote if the prospect of an election & referendum in my mind was real.

Everyone loses if Brexit becomes reality on the 31st of October. If they eventually cannot see the woods for the trees; well they will become a lost cause.

BonnieSituation

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That will be a simple binary question. Difference is to get to that point it will all be mapped out to the last full stop and decimal and have passed through several citizens assemblies north and south before it gets to the point of going to the country.

We do referenda is very couple of years here. Probably better than anyone and they always pass after the slip up of Lisbon.
The brits should have asked us for advice before even setting forth on this but in their hubris they didn’t think it would be a problem.

They don't always pass (Presidential Age, Oireachtas oversight, Seanad abolition), but you'll find that when there is an open debate and a discussion about them they tend to.

MrMusician18

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They don't always pass (Presidential Age, Oireachtas oversight, Seanad abolition), but you'll find that when there is an open debate and a discussion about them they tend to.

An interesting one that was rejected twice was FF attempt to change the voting system from PR-STV to FPTP

upupup

devnull wrote: »

Are you really surprised?

Many families in the UK have people who are not talking to each other and are at loggerheads every day about Brexit. I know many people who dare not speak about it as it always provokes a huge row and things getting out of control. There's even people who avoid visiting their relatives when the news is on to try and avoid yet another argument about Brexit where they are on polar opposite sides.

This is the country that the Tories have created, they have divided a nation so far that it has become a completely toxic environment which has created massive divisions and severely fractured society as a whole. It has poisoned everyday life in the UK and whatever about immigration resulting in Broken Britain as the Tories used to say this whole charade has damaged society far more.

I do not condone any kind of scuffles or violence and never will, but at the end of the day this is the country that has been created by politicians rhetoric, actions and the division they've sown over the past few years. The politicians have not just stood idly by whilst the country becomes like this, they've heavily encouraged it.

Buddha would call it Karma.
Their Ancestors sailed around the world and pushed their ideas and way of life on peaceful nations.These nations were then divided.Eire,Argentina,Spain,China,Palestine.
Now the "Karma" of division has come home to their sons and daughters and it will be powerful!

“You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.”

Enter name here

devnull wrote: »

Are you really surprised?

Many families in the UK have people who are not talking to each other and are at loggerheads every day about Brexit. I know many people who dare not speak about it as it always provokes a huge row and things getting out of control. There's even people who avoid visiting their relatives when the news is on to try and avoid yet another argument about Brexit where they are on polar opposite sides.

This is the country that the Tories have created, they have divided a nation so far that it has become a completely toxic environment which has created massive divisions and severely fractured society as a whole. It has poisoned everyday life in the UK and whatever about immigration resulting in Broken Britain as the Tories used to say this whole charade has damaged society far more.

I do not condone any kind of scuffles or violence and never will, but at the end of the day this is the country that has been created by politicians rhetoric, actions and the division they've sown over the past few years. The politicians have not just stood idly by whilst the country becomes like this, they've heavily encouraged it.

Hogswash, it is a country that Labour and the remainers have created by not upholding the democratic vote of the people. Quite frankly sick of excuses Labour and the remainers are to blame for the troubles nothing more nothing less.