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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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    #2702
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    They don't always pass (Presidential Age, Oireachtas oversight, Seanad abolition), but you'll find that when there is an open debate and a discussion about them they tend to.

    Good point and I don’t remember any debates or even that much coverage about the ones you mentioned. So it’s true. It’s not like a UI ref would be like that. It would be omnipresent and relentless coverage from the moment it was called up to the polling day an probably long after.


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    #2703
    Homo politicus
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Homo politicus


    joe40 wrote: »
    Exactly, someone more knowledgeable might be able to correct me here but isn't Germany very reluctant to use referendums due to their little brush with dictatorship.
    Not sure of details so could be wrong here.

    You're absolutely right. I think there hasn't been a single nationwide referendum since the Federal Republic of Germany was founded. Our constitution sets strict limits on the range of questions on which such referenda can be held.
    The campaigning of right-wing groups ahead of a referendum in 1929 did much to poison the political culture of the Weimar Republic, and later the Nazis continued to misuse referenda on several occasions. I really can't blame our "founding fathers" for being suspicious of direct democracy after WW2.
    (By the way, referenda on a regional level are reasonably common in Germany. The exact rules may differ, but basically there is a three-stage process in which voters themselves can initiate and eventually pass legislation in legally binding referenda.)


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    #2704
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    briany wrote: »
    You can open their eyes all you want. Whether they'll choose to see is another matter.
    True, but that's why I say they need to leave. An extended time out of the EU is required, so that they see that the problems they blame the EU for, still remain despite being outside the EU.
    briany wrote: »
    The religious zealotry is an apt comparison. In the fundamentalist Christian's eyes, any 'act of god' must be good, because God himself is good. The same idea will be true for the hardcore of Brexit. Any calamity coming from Brexit will be good because Brexit is, by definition, good.
    Just scroll through the BBC comments section on the news of Boris' actions. These are some of the upvoted comments:
    "I have already stocked up on my baked beans. Cant beat brexit beans and toast"
    "Well done Boris Sock it to them"
    "WE WON YOU LOST GET OVER IT AND BY THE WAY THE QUEEN IS ON OUR SIDE"
    "The queen has spoken... Shush remoaners lololol"
    "Bye Bye EU, next BYE BYE SCOTLAND if you dare!!"
    "God save the Queen! God save Boris! Looks like we might have some small chance of restoring true democracy and sovereignty in our once great nation!"

    As I said previously, logic went out the window a long time ago. Brexit cannot be stopped at this point. Imagine the uproar if somehow it was delayed or halted altogether? The blame game needs to stop. Reality will enter the fray at some point, but not until an extend time period outside the EU.


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    #2705
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Enter name here wrote: »
    Hogswash, it is a country that Labour and the remainers have created by not upholding the democratic vote of the people. Quite frankly sick of excuses Labour and the remainers are to blame for the troubles nothing more nothing less.
    Leave won the vote. Leave has been in power. Leave triggered article 50 without a proper plan for NI. Leave has suspended their elected representatives.
    Yet, it's the other sides fault. This is what I mean by the delusion in the Church of Brexit.


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    #2706
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,341 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157

    A petition to not prorogue is gaining signatures at the rate of 1,000 per minute at the moment. I'd expect it to top several million by the end of the week

    Signing online petitions :rolleyes:

    Remainers in Britain need to get up off their hole and engage in strong protest and civil disobedience.


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    #2707
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Enter name here wrote: »
    Hogswash, it is a country that Labour and the remainers have created by not upholding the democratic vote of the people. Quite frankly sick of excuses Labour and the remainers are to blame for the troubles nothing more nothing less.

    The issue you seem to be ignoring is no one voted for a no deal including Brexiters. You had people like Farage who said the UK would stay in the single market. Most Brexiters appeared to be under the massive delusion that the UK could have access to the UK but not have to follow the rules. You had Gove saying the minute the UK left it held all the cards. The exact opposite has been the case. When the delusion was pointed out it was labelled as project fear.


    And also the UK is a representative democracy. The action of Labour and anyone opposed to Brexit is completely democratic. MPs are elected to represent their members. Given there was an election after the Brexit vote, people would have voted in full knowledge of the MPs views.


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    #2708
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Signing online petitions :rolleyes:

    Remainers in Britain need to get up off their hole and engage in strong protest and civil disobedience.

    Calls for a national day of strike are growing legs. It was trending all day in the UK twittersphere.

    A series of actions like that would be huge


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    #2709
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭swampgas


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    That's a myth. They are no more stoic than anyone else.

    In terms of politics, a lot of people are disconnected, apathetic rather than stoic. The FPTP system really doesn't help - if you're in one of the many safe seats then there can seem like little point in voting.


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    #2710
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,958 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    The unfortunate thing is that no one cares if they Hard Brexit or not.

    We will survive. They will not accept that, and choose to think that Hard Brexit will finish us all off. Well Ireland particularly.

    What they fail (as usual) to realise is that EU includes Ireland. Or should I say EU is Ireland also.

    Anyway it is a great/terrible time to live through this.

    And Johnson IMV via Cummings is just playing a game here.


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    #2711
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Leave won the vote. Leave has been in power. Leave triggered article 50 without a proper plan for NI. Leave has suspended their elected representatives.
    Yet, it's the other sides fault. This is what I mean by the delusion in the Church of Brexit.

    Yep, it’s pure Trumpian bizarro world logic to blame the opposition because the Tory party could not get its own deal through parliament.

    The ERG prevented May from passing the WA

    The anti brexit side have lots to be angry at Corbyn over, but if it wasn’t for his failure to implement the will of his own party there would probably have been either another election, a or a 2nd referendum by now.


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    #2712
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Protestors now seem to be blocking streets and Waterloo bridge.

    Civil disobedience but very British and civilized. Focnow


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    #2713
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    It is kinda funny though. An unelected PM goes to an unelected head of state, to suspend the elected Parliament.

    Excuse my ignorance but how is Boris an unelected PM?


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    #2714
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Yep, it’s pure Trumpian bizarro world logic to blame the opposition because the Tory party could not get its own deal through parliament.

    The ERG prevented May from passing the WA

    The anti brexit side have lots to be angry at Corbin over, but if it wasn’t for his failure to implement the will of his own party there would probably have been either another election, a or a 2nd referendum by now.

    I watched Corbyn being interviewed today about suspension of parliament. Bizarre. Zero passion. It was as if he had popped a few Xanax and was chatting about the price of milk.


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    #2715
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance but how is Boris an unelected PM?
    In a country screaming about un-elected bureaucrats in the EU, Boris is an un-elected PM.


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    #2716
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭fash


    Enter name here wrote: »
    Hogswash, it is a country that Labour and the remainers have created by not upholding the democratic vote of the people. Quite frankly sick of excuses Labour and the remainers are to blame for the troubles nothing more nothing less.
    It was the ERG and other brexiters who didn't vote for the WA- why do you blame Labour for their actions?


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    #2717
    Mr.Nice Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 45,594 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    As it might help deliver a no-deal Brexit thus keeping those nasty Taigs in their place, the DUP are happy with the idea of suspending parliament...

    Good point made by the BBC NI broadcaster William Crawley earlier that the DUP were criticising Sinn Fein for bringing down Stormont on the basis that 'you can't shut down parliament just because you're not getting your way'. Now they are supporting precisely that as regards Johnson and the Westminster parliament.

    Yet another example of how the DUP are devoid of principles.


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    #2718
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Leave won the vote.

    Correct and the most important factor in all of this.
    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Leave has been in power.

    Not correct. TM was/is a remainer. Most of her cabinet were not committed to Brexit. Those who were resigned. Leave has been in power since Boris took office and the UK is going to leave now, as planned.
    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Leave has suspended their elected representatives.

    That is not correct. The Queen has.


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    #2719
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    In a country screaming about un-elected bureaucrats in the EU, Boris is an un-elected PM.

    Right... but how is he unelected... was he not an MP?


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    #2720
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    In a country screaming about un-elected bureaucrats in the EU, Boris is an un-elected PM.

    Are you sure about that? I seem to recall an election taking place involving him and a number of other contenders for party leader. I'm fairly sure that he was voted into parliament in the last election.


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    #2721
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Berserker wrote: »
    Correct and the most important factor in all of this.
    Yes, they are the root cause of all of this.

    Berserker wrote: »
    Not correct. TM was/is a remainer. Most of her cabinet were not committed to Brexit. Those who were resigned. Leave has been in power since Boris took office and the UK is going to leave now, as planned.
    Not correct. Boris was a remainer using your logic.
    Berserker wrote: »
    That is not correct. The Queen has.
    At Boris' request. So correct.

    FYI, you are being added to my ignore list. Breixt will happen and we'll be rid of your ilk for a few years.


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    #2722
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Right... but how is he unelected... was he not an MP?
    I said un-elected PM.


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    #2723
    Enter name here
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    I said un-elected PM.

    But voters elect parties not prime ministers. So by your reasoning no prime minister has ever been elected.


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    #2724
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    As it might help deliver a no-deal Brexit thus keeping those nasty Taigs in their place, the DUP are happy with the idea of suspending parliament...
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/arlene-foster-and-dup-welcome-johnson-s-move-to-suspend-uk-parliament-1.4000016

    An atrociously inaccurate statement. They are in their current position, i.e. completely irrelevant because of their own archaic and stubborn attitude towards parliament. If they decided to move with the times and take their seats in London, they'd be a key player in Brexit and you know it.


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    #2725
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,630 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Protestors now seem to be blocking streets and Waterloo bridge.

    Civil disobedience but very British and civilized. Focnow

    They should have done this a year or two ago. They had the right wing rags telling them they were "anti-democratic" for being opposed to Brexit......the absolute cheek.


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    #2726
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 68,838 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Berserker wrote: »
    An atrociously inaccurate statement. They are in their current position, i.e. completely irrelevant because of their own archaic and stubborn attitude towards parliament. If they decided to move with the times and take their seats in London, they'd be a key player in Brexit and you know it.

    Their current position seems to be getting closer and closer to a UI.


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    #2727
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    Enter name here wrote: »
    But voters elect parties not prime ministers. So by your reasoning no prime minister has ever been elected.
    Boris wasn't party leader, who was going to be the PM if they won a GE.
    Again, in the context of those who have been Pro-Brexit and moaning about un-elected bureaucrats in the EU, Boris is an un-elected PM.


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    #2728
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
    Good point made by the BBC NI broadcaster William Crawley earlier that the DUP were criticising Sinn Fein for bringing down Stormont on the basis that 'you can't shut down parliament just because you're not getting your way'. Now they are supporting precisely that as regards Johnson and the Westminster parliament.

    Yet another example of how the DUP are devoid of principles.

    Won’t post it here for fear of reprisal but there’s a video in the other brexit thread of a DUP member screaming at camera crews upon the signing of the GFA and they haven’t changed their stance. They want that hard border and will fight tooth and Nail to get it. Brexit brings that about and their goal is now in sight. Destroy the GFA. Return to direct rule.
    All while Arlene hides behind the GFA saying the backstop and Dublin tears up the peace agreement. That one she resigned from her party from in protest of its signing and still hasn’t signed up to.
    The DUP being hypocritical isn’t news though. To us here at least. The British are unaware of their duplicitous nature


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    #2729
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Yes, they are the root cause of all of this.

    How dare the British people decide to leave the EU, I'm guessing?

    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    Not correct. Boris was a remainer using your logic.

    Boris has been one of the most prominent Brexiters since the result was announced. TM was hesitant about Brexit all along. She never even brought up the option of a no deal Brexit in Brussels. Barnier confirmed this a few months ago.
    munstermagic11 wrote: »
    At Boris' request. So correct. FYI, you are being added to my ignore list. Breixt will happen and we'll be rid of your ilk for a few years.

    And she obliged. She's not required to do so. Add away, we both know that the UK has made the right call. Brexit is starting to become a reality and some people just can't accept that.


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    #2730
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Enter name here wrote: »
    But voters elect parties not prime ministers. So by your reasoning no prime minister has ever been elected.

    Well lets ask a certain journalist called Boris Johnson all the way back in 2005 what he thought about Gordon Brown doing the exact same thing
    Boris Johnson wrote:
    “They voted for Anthony Charles Lynton Blair to serve as their leader. They were at no stage invited to vote on whether Gordon Brown should be PM… They voted for Tony, and yet they now get Gordon, and a transition about as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero. It is a scandal. Why are we all conniving in this stitch-up? This is nothing less than a palace coup… with North Korean servility, the Labour Party has handed power over to the brooding Scottish power-maniac.

    The extraordinary thing is that it looks as though he will now be in 10 Downing Street for three years, and without a mandate from the British people. No one elected Gordon Brown as Prime Minister…”


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    #2731
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Yes, good job they are not in France or the police would be cracking heads like they have been doing for the last 41 unreported weeks.

    I'm glad people like you are posting these arguments. It really does cause me to change my mind. I do think that democracy should be restored by soldiers on the streets battering the crap out of Remoaners. I can't think of a better way to restore democracy.


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