Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

irishproduce

Court challenges, emergency legislation, resignations, alternative parliaments.
Every effort exerted to stop the democratic process.
All these actions, in desperation, to deny the referendum result.
Every effort exerted to frustrate the will of the people.
The people voted to leave. Let them.

listermint

irishproduce wrote: »

Court challenges, emergency legislation, resignations, alternative parliaments.
Every effort exerted to stop the democratic process.
All these actions, in desperation, to deny the referendum result.
Every effort exerted to frustrate the will of the people.
The people voted to leave. Let them.

You know not democracy.


The evidence is clear.

Headshot

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Nice opening from Newsnight about the previous stance of Brexiters on proroguing parliament:

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1166826812577632257

In the words of Groucho Marx, "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them I have others."

Damn it looks like I missed a good newsnight

Love to see it.....

VinLieger

irishproduce wrote: »

Court challenges, emergency legislation, resignations, alternative parliaments.
Every effort exerted to stop the democratic process.
All these actions, in desperation, to deny the referendum result.
Every effort exerted to frustrate the will of the people.
The people voted to leave. Let them.

How did they vote to leave though? with a deal or Norway+, Canada+, in the CU, in the SM which is it?

BorneTobyWilde

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

She's 93. She doesn't give a crap.

The Queen has the chance to be the level head when all around have lost theirs.
She could make a speech about Brexit, talk of how everyone in the UK now know exactly what Brexit is, as it has been the only thing in people lives since 2016, that with this knowledge the people should be allowed another chance to vote, and that this vote result should be backed by everyone.
She could take control, and who would take her on? No one.

j8wk2feszrnpao

prawnsambo wrote: »

There is one scenario where it works. The UK hard brexits, Rampant recession, inflation and job losses mount. With the loss of FoM, their only exit is via the CTA to Ireland. They're not quite EU immigrants, but close enough.

The claim was that when Brexit occurs, Ireland suffers the rampant recession and mass immigration at the same time. Remember, Brexit means Britain will be great again, so the scenario doesn’t apply for them.

Sam Russell

VinLieger wrote: »

How did they vote to leave though? with a deal or Norway+, Canada+, in the CU, in the SM which is it?

They voted to leave through lies and manipulation using the tricks of Cambridge Analytical, funded illegally.

There was no formula as to the route after the vote. None. Once the vote was won - job done, except it wasn't.

boggerman1

MarinersBlues wrote: »

All day the BBC have been pushing the line that the EU are moving to make a deal with the UK due to Boris's stunt this morning.

Where are they getting this from?
They're hasn't been a sliver of an hint of the EU changing their position.

Stop listening to Katie Adler and Laura kussenberg.both bullsh*t merchants of the highest order

VinLieger

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The Queen has the chance to be the level head when all around have lost theirs.
She could make a speech about Brexit, talk of how everyone in the UK now know exactly what Brexit is, as it has been the only thing in people lives since 2016, that with this knowledge the people should be allowed another chance to vote, and that this vote result should be backed by everyone.
She could take control, and who would take her on? No one.

I honestly think some of the die hard brexiteers might, wouldn't be surprised if people started remembering where the current batch of the royal family actually hail from.... regardless of it being about 300 years ago

Forty Seven

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The Queen has the chance to be the level head when all around have lost theirs.
She could make a speech about Brexit, talk of how everyone in the UK now know exactly what Brexit is, as it has been the only thing in people lives since 2016, that with this knowledge the people should be allowed another chance to vote, and that this vote result should be backed by everyone.
She could take control, and who would take her on? No one.

So the protests and court challenges and petitions and on and on just transfer to the other side causing even more of the same but with added fury?


This isn't BJ against the UK. This is a stalemate that is being broken. All things considered the only way out is to respect the result of the referendum and be damned.


The way the conversation is going here you'd think nobody wanted to leave, the truth is it is probably 50/50.

Headshot

I see Gina Miller has gone back to the courts again.

Unfortunately this is going to be alot harder to challenge Boris plan in the courts

Capt'n Midnight

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If Labour had anyone other than Corbyn, there wouldn't be a Johnson.

Meanwhile in Italy

Italy's opposition Democratic Party (PD) has said it is ready to form a coalition with the Five-Star Movement, setting aside years of hostility to avoid a snap election and ease economic uncertainty.

Where there's a will there's a way.

VinLieger

Forty Seven wrote: »

The way the conversation is going here you'd think nobody wanted to leave, the truth is it is probably 50/50.

Which is still ridiculous, such a drastic monumental change to the status quo should not come down to a simple majority of 51%

Its especially disgusting when the demographics of those that voted to leave wont have to deal with the consequences for anywhere near as long as those who voted remain

Varta

Headshot wrote: »

Damn it looks like I missed a good newsnight

Love to see it.....

It went downhill from there, with lots more of "the EU are moving":rolleyes:

Varta

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The Queen has the chance to be the level head when all around have lost theirs.
She could make a speech about Brexit, talk of how everyone in the UK now know exactly what Brexit is, as it has been the only thing in people lives since 2016, that with this knowledge the people should be allowed another chance to vote, and that this vote result should be backed by everyone.
She could take control, and who would take her on? No one.

You are assuming she's anti-brexit. Is she? Anyway, these days the royals are only there for the tourists.

Varta

VinLieger wrote: »

Which is still ridiculous, such a drastic monumental change to the status quo should not come down to a simple majority of 51%

Its especially disgusting when the demographics of those that voted to leave wont have to deal with the consequences for anywhere near as long as those who voted remain

Except when it suits? Seriously, brexit will be a disaster for the UK, but they did vote for it. It is important that people who object to brexit remain absolutely democratic, because in the end, it will only be overturned through democratic means. Be that now or in years to come when the UK applies for readmission.

Forty Seven

VinLieger wrote: »

Which is still ridiculous, such a drastic monumental change to the status quo should not come down to a simple majority of 51%

A simple majority seems fair, otherwise the fix is in before the vote. A good study of the fallout of such a vote would be the first scottish devolution referendum 1979. As much chaos as a simple majority.

Its especially disgusting when the demographics of those that voted to leave wont have to deal with the consequences for anywhere near as long as those who voted remain

To be fair those people are the people with the experience and the knowledge. Ignore that and you are opening a can of worms in any situation. You don't make the newly hired graduate chief executive of a company. I myself was a communist when I was a youth. Then I grew up. My grandparents voted leave because they thought it was best for the people they love, their family, they have no needs of their own, at 93 and 92 they are waiting to die. They voted with conscience and although I voted remain I respect their opinion.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Berserker wrote: »

Aside : If there was another vote and it was a 'Yes' in NI, what would people think about that?



The remainers may want to present it in that manner but a no deal Brexit has always been the only viable Brexit for the UK. The EU was never and will never let anyone leave with a deal that favours the party that is departing. It'd be suicide on their part. TMs deal kept the UK tied to the EU, which conflicts with the openness that they want to achieve post Brexit.

People are starting to search EU law for ways to stop this now. Think about that for a moment in the context of Brexit.



I don't get that. You've a minority who've always had that view. You've a minority of Irish people with a strong hatred for everything British. The majority on both sides will get on just fine. The politicians are bickering because their careers are on the line. Ireland will go into a recession post Brexit and FG will suffer at the ballot box. We all know that.



If their is another vote, I firmly believe that it'll be a stronger 'Yes' this time round. I really do. Immigration was the decider, I agree. Was talking to a solicitor about this today and he is amazed by the lack of prep here for a large influx of EU citizens. Will be interesting to see how things go here if we have to deal with a large influx of EU nationals along with a recession.

Ireland isn't forecast to go into a recession because of Brexit. Growth won't be as high. But the border counties are the poorest here. There's no study to link to sorry. There has been a lot of money flushed away. We have no way to measure it though.

Ireland doesn't need a deal for its survival. The UK is in trouble without one. The Conservative government's 'red lines' have to be crossed.

If Johnson wants to crash the UK out of the EU and put a hard border in place, that's on them. It won't be Ireland's fault.

Professor Moriarty

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Meanwhile in Italy


Where there's a will there's a way.

Great to see Salvini getting a slap of Karma. Here's hoping his fellow traveller gets the same.

c.p.w.g.w

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

Farage is just waiting for the day when he can hold a full Nuremburg style rally. Maybe not too far off

Somewhere like Rhyl or Scarborough*...two economic holes

*With the inevitable collapse of British Steel

Strazdas

Forty Seven wrote: »

A simple majority seems fair, otherwise the fix is in before the vote. A good study of the fallout of such a vote would be the first scottish devolution referendum 1979. As much chaos as a simple majority.

A near 50-50 result would be fine on something like raising the VAT rate by 2%. Enacting massive constitutional change, which will impact on people's lives for decades, on the back of a split decision is a recipe for disaster and deep division.

That charlatan Cameron didn't even begin to realise the risks he was taking.

prawnsambo

Forty Seven wrote: »

A simple majority seems fair, otherwise the fix is in before the vote. A good study of the fallout of such a vote would be the first scottish devolution referendum 1979. As much chaos as a simple majority.

The intelligent (and democratic) way would have been to require a majority in each of the constituent countries of the union. But then again, having a referendum on such a subject without an agreed outcome for either decision was stupid beyond measure.

Forty Seven wrote: »

To be fair those people are the people with the experience and the knowledge. Ignore that and you are opening a can of worms in any situation. You don't make the newly hired graduate chief executive of a company. I myself was a communist when I was a youth. Then I grew up. My grandparents voted leave because they thought it was best for the people they love, their family, they have no needs of their own, at 93 and 92 they are waiting to die. They voted with conscience and although I voted remain I respect their opinion.

I don't doubt anybody's sincerity in how they voted. What I often wonder though, is what exactly they envisaged from their vote and what factors made them reject the status quo. I've heard many people on both sides of the argument admit (almost in passing) that they have no real vote because they live in a [insert name of party here] constituency and I wonder is it that feeling of powerlessness that drove a lot of leave voters. With the EU seen as the cause of that feeling.

Strazdas

prawnsambo wrote: »

The intelligent (and democratic) way would have been to require a majority in each of the constituent countries of the union. But then again, having a referendum on such a subject without an agreed outcome for either decision was stupid beyond measure.

Triggering A50 with no plan for Brexit, no agreed position even among the Govt. and no consultation with the Opposition was another disastrous error

Forty Seven

Strazdas wrote: »

A near 50-50 result would be fine on something like raising the VAT rate by 2%. Enacting massive constitutional change, which will impact on people's lives for decades, on the back of a split decision is a recipe for disaster and deep division.

That charlatan Cameron didn't even begin to realise the risks he was taking.

Agree on Cameron, absolute arse of a decision. I still contend that a defined percentage majority is just as problematic as shown in my example.



The fact is that in a 50/50 situation there is never a good outcome, no matter the criteria, can you imagine the situation of leave polling 52% in a must reach 60% referendum? We would be exactly where we are now. Just with the players on the other sides of the stage.

c.p.w.g.w

Please don't dump pics here.

Forty Seven

prawnsambo wrote: »

The intelligent (and democratic) way would have been to require a majority in each of the constituent countries of the union. But then again, having a referendum on such a subject without an agreed outcome for either decision was stupid beyond measure.

Pitching country against country? Adding nationalism into this would have been catastrophic. Scotland stopping the will of the majority UK? Talk about adding fuel to the fire?

I don't doubt anybody's sincerity in how they voted. What I often wonder though, is what exactly they envisaged from their vote and what factors made them reject the status quo. I've heard many people on both sides of the argument admit (almost in passing) that they have no real vote because they live in a [insert name of party here] constituency and I wonder is it that feeling of powerlessness that drove a lot of leave voters. With the EU seen as the cause of that feeling.

Immigration, immigration, immigration. It is all I hear from leave voters. However misguided there is a real sense of loss of control and no party wishing to deal with it. Some made it a protest vote, others believed it would stop the flow.

Strazdas

Forty Seven wrote: »

Agree on Cameron, absolute arse of a decision. I still contend that a defined percentage majority is just as problematic as shown in my example.



The fact is that in a 50/50 situation there is never a good outcome, no matter the criteria, can you imagine the situation of leave polling 52% in a must reach 60% referendum? We would be exactly where we are now. Just with the players on the other sides of the stage.

Cameron made mistake after mistake. He could have kept open the option of a second confirmatory referendum (Cummings even suggested this), he could have changed the question on the ballot paper to specify whether Single Market membership was being voted on, he could have stated Leave needed a majority in the four home nations etc etc

Instead he put the life savings on the roulette wheel

BonnieSituation

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Meanwhile in Italy


Where there's a will there's a way.

Watching Salvini playing Senior Hurling has been most enjoyable.

Reminds me of the "Eamonn for Taoiseach" crap that we had when Gilmore got notions.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Strazdas wrote: »

Cameron made mistake after mistake. He could have kept open the option of a second confirmatory referendum (Cummings even suggested this), he could have changed the question on the ballot paper to specify whether Single Market membership was being voted on, he could have stated Leave needed a majority in the four home nations etc etc

Instead he put the life savings on the roulette wheel

Cameron trying to keep control of the Tory far right was wrong.

Each constituent country should have had a free vote on EU membership. England is too big in comparison to make any decision fair.

Northern Ireland is different to Britain. Half of the population might feel British. But they are not the same.

prawnsambo

Forty Seven wrote: »

Pitching country against country? Adding nationalism into this would have been catastrophic. Scotland stopping the will of the majority UK? Talk about adding fuel to the fire?

I don't know if that would have been the case back when the referendum was called. It's not an unreasonable suggestion. After all, you can't call it a United Kingdom if you don't think each part shouldn't have an equal say. In any event, it's a moot point, but if you set the ground rules at the start, everyone knows what they have to do.

Forty Seven wrote: »

Immigration, immigration, immigration. It is all I hear from leave voters. However misguided there is a real sense of loss of control and no party wishing to deal with it. Some made it a protest vote, others believed it would stop the flow.

Despite the fact that at least half the immigration into the UK is just the empire coming back to bite it in the ass.

But now the Pandora's box is open and most of the stuff that got out is not going to go back easily. I don't know where it will end, but I'm starting to believe that brexit has to happen now to start whatever process is needed to lance the boil.