Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

Forty Seven wrote: »

So the protests and court challenges and petitions and on and on just transfer to the other side causing even more of the same but with added fury?


This isn't BJ against the UK. This is a stalemate that is being broken. All things considered the only way out is to respect the result of the referendum and be damned.


The way the conversation is going here you'd think nobody wanted to leave, the truth is it is probably 50/50.

I don't know if you saw my question to you, but you mentioned in a previous post that there are EU laws that are restricting your freedom in the UK. Are you able to cite those laws as they will have an impact on us here as well and I would like to know if I need to start protesting against the EU as well in that case.

As for what is happening today, sometimes I get the feeling we don't really know when a big situation hits us when it happens. This may be one of those cases. David Allen Green is a writer for the FT on law and policy and he is quite interesting to follow. He has appeared a few times on Remainiacs podcast episodes before and I found him to be interested not in a particular position but the mechanics of the law and the UK constitution and what it means from there.

His tweets also has a particular sens of humour about them, like how he is enjoying the drama's that happened around Brexit before because the legal aspects fascinates him, when we are talking about jobs being lost. He would remark as well that it is a great time to be a constitutional lawyer and the best time since 1640 (or something like that), all very much tongue in cheek.

But when he comes out with this thread it makes me sit up and think about where the UK is heading right now,

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1166808756489019394?s=20

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1166810014562037760?s=20

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1166811447789281280?s=20

He sees this move as cynical and an actual constitutional crises in the UK. I also feel that the way a protest was quickly arranged will mean we will see more of those in the coming days, but I suspect the other side will be out in force as well. I think the violence on the streets will start to become more frequent between the sides. As we have read stories on here there are families torn between Leave and Remain and I feel frustration on both sides has grown. There will be a few events where people are going to go overboard and it is not going to be pretty to watch.

If politicians aren't careful with their words they may be fueling the flames of discontent and we could see some interesting scenes unfold in the UK. As for the EU position, it seems nothing has changed and nothing will change.

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1166652053692780544?s=20

'Senior EU source on prorogation: "Whatever happens, the EU was never going to change its position because no deal becomes ‘more credible’ or opponents of ‘no deal’ would get better organised."'

Last tweet, to add to those who has linked the hypocrisy of current ministers and their views on proroguing parliament,

https://twitter.com/ianbirrell/status/1166821141207494656?s=20

They have no shame, the lot of them. I give Ruth Davidson some credit, when it became clear she was going to be on the deck of the ship steering towards no-deal she left, these ones would sell their children if it gave them a promotion.

Strazdas

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Cameron trying to keep control of the Tory far right was wrong.

Each constituent country should have had a free vote on EU membership. England is too big in comparison to make any decision fair.

Northern Ireland is different to Britain. Half of the population might feel British. But they are not the same.

In any sort of a close vote, England was always going to hold sway - we could easily have seen a situation where England voted to leave and the other three voted Remain.

Ignacius

The best analogy I have to describe the notion of preventing a no deal by showing you are prepared for a no deal Brexit is the reasoning that taking your seatbelt off in the middle of a game of chicken will prevent the crash.
This seems to be the opinion floated around by Mogg et al.

prawnsambo

Enzokk wrote: »

If politicians aren't careful with their words they may be fueling the flames of discontent and we could see some interesting scenes unfold in the UK.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed a long time ago. Too many lies have now got out and run around the country becoming truth in the repetition. It's now got to the stage that the very politicians who started those lies are now trammelled by the power they endowed in those lies. They find themselves doubling down on them, not because they don't want to be found out, but because they won't be believed if they say otherwise.

Achernar

I think Johnson is the figure that is being used to effect the final push to rupture the relationship between the UK and the EU. The ultimate goal here is not necessarily for the UK to regain sovereignty or allow it to engage in its own trade deals etc., although these arguments are being used to stoke up support amongst the herd; rather the goal is to destroy the EU. The real influences behind Johnson, the Cambridge Analytica crowd, Cummings, Rees-Mogg etc., are a global supranational network of wealthy elites who can see the writing on the wall with respect to fossil fuel interests and climate catastrophe, and who are scrambling to maintain their control over their exclusivity and wealth. The EU has its faults but it is largely a beacon of hope and a force for good in establishing workable democratic arrangements that maximize cooperation, protect minorities and preserve peace, but also possesses sufficient clout to be a player in global issues.
The drama is unfolding in the UK because it is largely a corrupt democracy with a not-fit-for-purpose constitution and archaic political processes which are easy to manipulate along with a biased corporate media and a poorly educated population.
The thing that disturbs me most is that the canal in power now in London will stop at nothing to metaphorically declare war on the EU, even after Brexit Day. They don’t give a **** about Ireland (north or south) and will see trouble in Ireland as a good thing because it helps destabilize the EU.
Someone in the thread mentioned how we are now in a war of sorts and I think this is on the money.
It is a world war. Countries are but bit players, the real power resides in those few individuals that control money, energy, and information. They play national political institutions like tools to achieve their aims.

Enzokk

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm afraid that ship has sailed a long time ago. Too many lies have now got out and run around the country becoming truth in the repetition. It's now got to the stage that the very politicians who started those lies are now trammelled by the power they gave those lies. They find themselves doubling down on them, not because they don't want to be found out, but because they won't be believed if they say otherwise.

I am more worried by Farage and Johnson coming out with the soundbites how the protests are trying to take Brexit away from Leave voters and they need to be fought, which some may take literally. I know about the lies and the continued lies being told even today and they will not stop unfortunately. You can imagine the Steven Yaxley-Lennon support group has been looking for a fight for a while now and this could be their green light if they think a politician has given it to them.

Professor Moriarty

Achernar wrote: »

I think Johnson is the figure that is being used to effect the final push to rupture the relationship between the UK and the EU. The ultimate goal here is not necessarily for the UK to regain sovereignty or allow it to engage in its own trade deals etc., although these arguments are being used to stoke up support amongst the herd; rather the goal is to destroy the EU. The real influences behind Johnson, the Cambridge Analytica crowd, Cummings, Rees-Mogg etc., are a global supranational network of wealthy elites who can see the writing on the wall with respect to fossil fuel interests and climate catastrophe, and who are scrambling to maintain their control over their exclusivity and wealth. The EU has its faults but it is largely a beacon of hope and a force for good in establishing workable democratic arrangements that maximize cooperation, protect minorities and preserve peace, but also possesses sufficient clout to be a player in global issues.
The drama is unfolding in the UK because it is largely a corrupt democracy with a not-fit-for-purpose constitution and archaic political processes which are easy to manipulate along with a biased corporate media and a poorly educated population.
The thing that disturbs me most is that the canal in power now in London will stop at nothing to metaphorically declare war on the EU, even after Brexit Day. They don’t give a **** about Ireland (north or south) and will see trouble in Ireland as a good thing because it helps destabilize the EU.
Someone in the thread mentioned how we are now in a war of sorts and I think this is on the money.
It is a world war. Countries are but bit players, the real power resides in those few individuals that control money, energy, and information. They play national political institutions like tools to achieve their aims.

Exactly.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

I am more worried by Farage and Johnson coming out with the soundbites how the protests are trying to take Brexit away from Leave voters and they need to be fought, which some may take literally. I know about the lies and the continued lies being told even today and they will not stop unfortunately. You can imagine the Steven Yaxley-Lennon support group has been looking for a fight for a while now and this could be their green light if they think a politician has given it to them.

This type of tweet from the governing party is totally off the wall. Note how they solely are concerned with the wishes of the 17m Leave voters.....it seems everyone else in the UK can go to hell

https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1166362662231580673

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

This type of tweet from the governing party is totally off the wall. Note how they solely are concerned with the wishes of the 17m Leave voters.....it seems everyone else in the UK can go to hell

https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1166362662231580673

Close down Parliament [✓]

Start the process of delegitimising the any opposition [✓]

---

It's getting a bit too "on-the-nose" now for my liking...

Bit cynical

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

There should be a public vote on No Deal or Deal. That would be proper democracy in my view. The British public didn't decide this would be it.

That was the original idea behind the "People's Vote". However the UK parliament rejected the deal that was negotiated and now there isn't a deal to accept or reject in a public vote.

Peregrinus

Bit cynical wrote: »

That was the original idea behind the "People's Vote". However the UK parliament rejected the deal that was negotiated and now there isn't a deal to accept or reject in a public vote.

The point about a referendum is, supposedly, to take the decision away from parliament and give it to the people. The people can't be precluded from approved the deal because Parliament has rejected it.

fash

[quote="Berserker;111110703"
The remainers may want to present it in that manner but a no deal Brexit has always been the only viable Brexit for the UK. The EU was never and will never let anyone leave with a deal that favours the party that is departing. It'd be suicide on their part. [/quote]
Wait a minute- so you are saying that all of the brexiters- who all said prior to brexit that the UK would get an amazing deal, had all the cards, would have the German car industry forcing a great deal- you are saying that all of them were lying charlatans?

boggerman1

There was never a deal to be agreed upon from day one.article 50 paragraph 3 states as much by saying all treaties shall cease to exist once the 2 yrs are up after its triggered .the EU must hold to it position and let the carnage in the UK play out.

Peregrinus

boggerman1 wrote: »

There was never a deal to be agreed upon from day one.article 50 paragraph 3 states as much by saying all treaties shall cease to exist once the 2 yrs are up after its triggered .the EU must hold to it position and let the carnage in the UK play out.

Article 50 doesn't say that. Who told you it did? Why did you believe him, instead of just reading article 50 yourself? If God had intended you to uncrically lap up the rubbish spouted by Brexiter fake news site, He would not have created Google, would he?

boggerman1

Peregrinus wrote: »

Article 50 doesn't say that. Who told you it did? Why did you believe him, instead of just reading article 50 yourself? If God had intended you to uncrically lap up the rubbish spouted by Brexiter fake news site, He would not have created Google, would he?

Hold on one second there bucko.as far back as August 2017 James hunter of 3 men in a pub series stated as much on James O'Brian's show on lbc.look if up on YouTube.the EU tried to make the UK's exit as easy as possible while the arrogant UK sat on their collective arses and did nothing.

Peregrinus

Why would I need to look up on YouTube what someone I have never heard of who belongs to some entertainment troupe I have never heard of on some radio show that I don't listen to said two years ago about Article 50 ? I can just read Article 50, like you can.

It's not a long read - only 12 or 13 lines. Here, have a go.

woohoo!!!

So to sum up:
Advisory Unicorn Brexit referendum passes, whilst completely ignoring their only land border and GFA.

Sovereign parliament elected with a majority on getting a deal. Sovereign means parliament decides how to implement the referendum.

Talks and negotiations flounder as unicorn brexit not on offer. Deal struck, remainers and unicorns unite to reject deal 3 times. Remainers elect more MEPs than Leavers.

BJ comes in. Strategy of making EU blink openly scoffed at, unicorns see blinking. Strategy of provoking an election by defying parliament, good chance of succeeding. Chance of constitutional crisis being averted, diminishing.

Square the circle of an advisory referendum being thwarted by a sovereign parliament, whilst simultaneously a massive recession with a tanking currency looming large in a wholly unprepared dis-united country.

Strong advise, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

lawred2

Strazdas wrote: »

This type of tweet from the governing party is totally off the wall. Note how they solely are concerned with the wishes of the 17m Leave voters.....it seems everyone else in the UK can go to hell

https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/1166362662231580673

Inciting hatred against democratically elected politicians. We've entered a whole new realm of madness this week.

It's 1930s Germany.

Akrasia

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The Queen has the chance to be the level head when all around have lost theirs.
She could make a speech about Brexit, talk of how everyone in the UK now know exactly what Brexit is, as it has been the only thing in people lives since 2016, that with this knowledge the people should be allowed another chance to vote, and that this vote result should be backed by everyone.
She could take control, and who would take her on? No one.

The brexiteers would accuse the queen of interfering in politics and accuse her of being a traitor. For these people the only non traitors are the people who are conspiring with foreign governments to dismantle the UK and plunge it into an economic depression

Calina

lawred2 wrote: »

Inciting hatred against democratically elected politicians. We've entered a whole new realm of madness this week.

It's 1930s Germany.

The Enemies of the People headline about judged was the entry point. May did not condemn that loudly enough and where are we now?

I think Gina Miller is looking for a judicial review. And a vote of no confidence is now urgent.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I think all opposition will fizzle out in a few days and BJ will plough on.

The UK, apart from NI of course, don't have a militant history that could breed enough of people that could stand against their government or the Queen. Trouble could happen in NI but everywhere else will fall in line.

At least this is giving a few laughs. I saw a placard on Twitter from last night's protests - "Worst BJ I've ever had".

Akrasia

lawred2 wrote: »

Inciting hatred against democratically elected politicians. We've entered a whole new realm of madness this week.

It's 1930s Germany.

That’s a shocking thing for the government party to publish at a time when there is a very real risk of civil unrest. They basically released a hitlist for their supporters to attack. Most of their supporters will attack them on social media but in a climate where there are plans drawn up to have the army patrolling the streets if violence breaks out, they might as well have drawn bullseyes on their faces

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would I need to look up on YouTube what someone I have never heard of who belongs to some entertainment troupe I have never heard of on some radio show that I don't listen to said two years ago about Article 50 ? I can just read Article 50, like you can.

It's not a long read - only 12 or 13 lines. Here, have a go.

You might like James O'Brien, Peregrinus, you should give his podcasts a go.

Infini

Wouldn't be so sure of that, remeber those riots a few years back? We only haven't seen much trouble because many are holding a "wait and see" approach. Now they're trying to shut down parliment and push through a crash out brexit that runs roughshod through their rights, I can see things getting ugly even before Oct 31st though maybe people will start coming out and protesting properly because the only way to end this madness is to strike, shut down things and protest in sheer numbers to force the government to actually listen to people and not push through a dangerously delusional polict of self destruction.

Akrasia

Derek Eager Registrar wrote: »

I think all opposition will fizzle out in a few days and BJ will plough on.

The UK, apart from NI of course, don't have a militant history that could breed enough of people that could stand against their government or the Queen. Trouble could happen in NI but everywhere else will fall in line.

At least this is giving a few laughs. I saw a placard on Twitter from last night's protests - "Worst BJ I've ever had".

Ah, Britain is the home of football riots, in 2011 London was home to weeks of riots and looting over barely anything. There is potential for very serious violence

prunudo

Just watching a vox pop on BBC breakfast there. Quite worrying that some people didn't know what the suspension of parliament would mean, others saying 'ah sure its only a few days' (its 5 weeks of no parliament) and then the usual Brexiteer who wants it happen asap so they can get out.
But the worrying part are the people who are just sick of hearing about it and want it done and stop hearing the B word, as if on Nov 1st its never mentioned again.
Its amazing that these people seem clueless about what is happening and what a no deal will actually mean. I think there'll be a large percentage of the population shocked if a no deal actually goes ahead. They seem for now to be happy to plead ignorance on such an important topic.

CelticRambler

Just been listening to JRM (on Sky) poo-poohing, in the haughtiest tones, the notion that proroging parliament has anything to with Brexit. With a perfectly straight face, he says it's entirely driven by Boris Johnson's desire to enact new legislation regarding hospitals, schools, policing, etc.

As if the type of Brexit undertaken by the UK wasn't going to have any at all effect on those areas ... :rolleyes:

Stop moaning ffs

CelticRambler wrote: »

Just been listening to JRM (on Sky) poo-poohing, in the haughtiest tones, the notion that proroging parliament has anything to with Brexit. With a perfectly straight face, he says it's entirely driven by Boris Johnson's desire to enact new legislation regarding hospitals, schools, policing, etc.

As if the type of Brexit undertaken by the UK wasn't going to have any at all effect on those areas ... :rolleyes:

He just did the same on LBC even after hearing clips of Leadsom Raab Javid etc from the previous months saying prorogued parliament is undemocratic and against everything they stand for and he waved it away saying that’s not what they meant to say


This is full on Orwellian propaganda. And the contempt it shows for democracy and the British people is astounding and there for all to see that can. Trouble is many don’t want to see it even if they do.

CelticRambler

prunudo wrote: »

But the worrying part are the people who are just sick of hearing about it and want it done and stop hearing the B word, as if on Nov 1st its never mentioned again.
Its amazing that these people seem clueless about what is happening and what a no deal will actually mean.

I am quite convinced that this is a side effect of living in a FPTP "democracy" - for the most part, it doesn't matter who you vote for, life goes on as before. Vote YES, vote NO, everything stays the same. And, as alluded to on this thread yesterday, the phrasing of the referendum question reinforced that with a message that was essentially "vote YES for no change!" ... but human nature is such that we tend to say "no" when in doubt.

This carries over into the use of the term "no deal" with respect to Brexit. For a public raised on a diet of game shows where the safe option for a contestant is to back out while the going's good, it takes a certain level of mental gymnastics to recognise that rupturing a 40-year contract is the exact opposite - that when you leave this game, you'll go home to find your cupboards are bare and the neighbours are burning your furniture.

Stop moaning ffs

How are they not being hung out to dry over their own words? It so completely appalling

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1166973541306306560?s=21

https://twitter.com/ridgeonsunday/status/1140184758720311296?s=21

https://twitter.com/dcakraemer/status/1166676234211905536?s=21