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References

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  • 16-08-2019 9:33pm
    #1
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭


    Myself and my partner just received notice that our landlord is to sell our apartment and he has given us six months notice. My partner moved in back in 2013 and the lease is under his name. In hindsight this was not the way to go about this but I moved in then but the lease remained unchanged and I wasn't added to it.

    Looking back on it I guess there was a fear of mentioning anything to the landlord as rentals were hard to come by (like they are now) and our thinking was that any change may have given him a reason to kick us out.

    Fast-forward to now and my partner has a reference when going to view new properties however I don't have any (rented numerous times in the past but no longer have any of the contacts / references).

    Any advice? Will the one reference be sufficient or are we in a difficult position?

    Thanks.


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    #2
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    What is your issue?


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    #3
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Dav010 wrote: »
    What is your issue?

    She's not on the reference being given by the LL so amongst other things it looks like its the first time they're living together which would put me off. Also looks like she can't get a reference.


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    #4
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    In reality references are not worth the paper they are written on. If you have a bad tenant and want to get rid of them you are not going to give a bad reference.
    I place more emphasis on work history which will show the ability to pay the rent.
    If they say that they are working for a certain company I have no hesitation contact the H.R. department to confirm same.
    It is a big decision to hand over your property to someone and trust them to pay the rent on time and mind the property.


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    #5
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    Is there any way you can contact the LL and explain. He/She may be prepared to give you a reference as well if you explain the situation.


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    #6
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    She's not on the reference being given by the LL so amongst other things it looks like its the first time they're living together which would put me off. Also looks like she can't get a reference.

    This is what I'm afraid of so it's putting us in a difficult position (which we put ourselves in but with good reason).
    Edgware wrote: »
    In reality references are not worth the paper they are written on. If you have a bad tenant and want to get rid of them you are not going to give a bad reference.
    I place more emphasis on work history which will show the ability to pay the rent.
    If they say that they are working for a certain company I have no hesitation contact the H.R. department to confirm same.
    It is a big decision to hand over your property to someone and trust them to pay the rent on time and mind the property.

    I've been with the same company for the last four years, and other companies prior to that, so if a landlord went down that route then I would be ok.
    DubCount wrote: »
    Is there any way you can contact the LL and explain. He/She may be prepared to give you a reference as well if you explain the situation.

    Part of me is afraid to approach the landlord as he could take it a couple of ways. Guess there's a small chance he would be willing to include me on a reference, but a much greater possibility of him saying that we broke the terms of the lease which would cause even more issues (no reference at all plus loss of deposit).


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    #7
    gwalk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭gwalk


    So were you living there without the landlords permission?


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    #8
    Foweva Awone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    Don't approach the landlord at this stage anyways, ye could end up with no references rather than one if he takes it badly and refuses to give your partner a decent reference as a result.

    A lot of people in your position would just get a friend to give the reference, saying they're a private landlord. Not that I'm recommending this, but it's an option ...


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    #9
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    gwalk wrote: »
    So were you living there without the landlords permission?

    Yes.
    Foweva Awone wrote: »
    Don't approach the landlord at this stage anyways, ye could end up with no references rather than one if he takes it badly and refuses to give your partner a decent reference as a result.

    A lot of people in your position would just get a friend to give the reference, saying they're a private landlord. Not that I'm recommending this, but it's an option ...

    Thanks. I think talking to the landlord at this stage wouldn't be the smartest of moves.

    I don't know how this would go down but if it came to it could I not just say (to a new landlord) that I moved in with my partner but was just not added to the lease? Or would they question why, and why did the landlord not add me?


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    #10
    Foweva Awone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    missdanto wrote: »
    Yes.



    Thanks. I think talking to the landlord at this stage wouldn't be the smartest of moves.

    I don't know how this would go down but if it came to it could I not just say (to a new landlord) that I moved in with my partner but was just not added to the lease? Or would they question why, and why did the landlord not add me?

    Well surely the new landlord would be likely to mention it to the old landlord when checking your partner's reference? No landlord is going to like the idea of a tenant's partner moving in without permission. So would probably be best not to go around it that way.


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    #11
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    IIRC you don't need permission just to inform. Away at the moment so will edit this later with the legislation unless someone beats me too it.

    This is distinct from subletting which does require permission.


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    #12
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    DubCount wrote: »
    Is there any way you can contact the LL and explain. He/She may be prepared to give you a reference as well if you explain the situation.
    missdanto wrote: »
    Part of me is afraid to approach the landlord as he could take it a couple of ways. Guess there's a small chance he would be willing to include me on a reference, but a much greater possibility of him saying that we broke the terms of the lease which would cause even more issues (no reference at all plus loss of deposit).
    gwalk wrote: »
    So were you living there without the landlords permission?

    Unless there is an explicit term in the lease restricting the apartment to a single person occupancy and limiting the frequency and duration that occupant can have a guest (or guests) stay over I don't see his there would be any breach of lease terms.

    OP's partner was leasing an apartment not paying a single rate for staying in a hotel - I don't see where any need for permission comes into it.

    At the same time I don't see any reason why the landlord would include the OP in any reference as the LL has no contractual relationship with them and may not even be aware of their existence.

    A reference saying OP's partner has been their tenant for the last six years and has been an exemplary tenant, however the LL wants to phrase it. Should be enough for any prospective new LL.


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    #13
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    IIRC you don't need permission just to inform. Away at the moment so will edit this later with the legislation unless someone beats me too it.

    This is distinct from subletting which does require permission.

    Thanks, if you could link that to me whenever you get a chance that would be great.


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    #14
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    missdanto wrote: »
    Thanks, if you could link that to me whenever you get a chance that would be great.

    Op, if your name is not on lease and you weren’t paying any additional rent after you moved in, the LL will most likely only give a reference to your partner. You should be aware, LL are not required to give any reference so be careful about telling him you had a right to be there.


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    #15
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    missdanto wrote: »
    Thanks, if you could link that to me whenever you get a chance that would be great.

    Section 16 (n) of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.


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    #16
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Thanks. Unfortunately that doesn't help my situation as I am what is termed a multiple tenant and according to what I've read we need to have informed the landlord at the time I moved in.
    (n) notify in writing the landlord of the identity of each person (other than a multiple tenant) who, for the time being, resides ordinarily in the dwelling


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    #17
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    She's not on the reference being given by the LL so amongst other things it looks like its the first time they're living together which would put me off. Also looks like she can't get a reference.

    Why would that put you off? Thats a shocking level of discrimination.


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    #18
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    terrydel wrote: »
    Why would that put you off? Thats a shocking level of discrimination.

    I apply a shocking level of discrimination as if I get someone who can't pay the rent I face a shockingly long process to get them out.


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    #19
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    missdanto wrote: »
    Thanks. Unfortunately that doesn't help my situation as I am what is termed a multiple tenant and according to what I've read we need to have informed the landlord at the time I moved in.

    Where did you find that defined please.


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    #20
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I apply a shocking level of discrimination as if I get someone who can't pay the rent I face a shockingly long process to get them out.

    Against couples living together for the first time? What evidence do you have that shows this demographic cant pay?


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    #21
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    terrydel wrote: »
    Against couples living together for the first time? What evidence do you have that shows this demographic cant pay?

    I've watched a lot of Judge Judy.


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    #22
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I've watched a lot of Judge Judy.

    Well thats the peer reviewed evidence I was looking for.


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    #23
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Where did you find that defined please.

    That was my understanding from the section you quoted. Am I wrong?

    I also came across this on the flac site:
    Where a tenant sublets part of a dwelling without the landlord’s consent, the ‘sub-tenant’ becomes a licensee of the ‘head tenant.’ In this situation the licensee can become a multiple tenant. He/she would have to ask the landlord to allow him/her become a tenant. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request. If the landlord accepts such a request it must be acknowledged in writing that the licensee is now a tenant of the dwelling.

    Which would suggest that I needed to inform the landlord in writing, no?


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    #24
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,989 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    That makes you a licensee, essentially you therefore have no rights under the RTA


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    #25
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Thanks. I'm not too concerned regarding my rights as such, it's more a concern as to how a potential landlord will view the situation.


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    #26
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    missdanto wrote: »
    That was my understanding from the section you quoted. Am I wrong?

    I also came across this on the flac site:

    "Where a tenant sublets part of a dwelling without the landlord’s consent, the ‘sub-tenant’ becomes a licensee of the ‘head tenant.’ In this situation the licensee can become a multiple tenant. He/she would have to ask the landlord to allow him/her become a tenant. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request. If the landlord accepts such a request it must be acknowledged in writing that the licensee is now a tenant of the dwelling."


    Which would suggest that I needed to inform the landlord in writing, no?

    So we needed to let the landlord know in writing?


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    #27
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    missdanto wrote: »
    So we needed to let the landlord know in writing?

    I’ve read through this thread, I’m struggling to see why would you expect a reference from a Landlord who does not even know you were staying in the property. Your partner is the tenant on the lease, and as far as the LL knows, the only occupant, so obviously it would be normal for him to get a reference.

    You said in the first line of your op, “myself and my partner received notice”, did you mean to say your partner received notice?

    I see no reason not to ask the LL, you said he could take this a couple of ways, he has already given you notice and your partner a reference, the only adverse action I think he could take is if a prospective LL contacted him, he might tell him/her that your partner moved in an extra tenant without notification. Whether that makes any difference is anyone’s guess.


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    #28
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    missdanto wrote: »
    So we needed to let the landlord know in writing?

    I think that section refers more to the situation where someone moves into a house in a rent a room situation from the tenant on the lease.

    If the person in the rent a room situation wants the greater protection of being a tenant (of the landlord) rather then a licensee of the tenant renting the property.

    Preferably after six months when they would also acquire part four rights on being made a tennant, the licencee can ask the landlord to add them to the lease as a tennant and the request cannot be unreasonably refused.

    It doesn't confer any obligation on a licensee to request the landlord to add them to the lease as a tennant.


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    #29
    missdanto
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭missdanto


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’ve read through this thread, I’m struggling to see why would you expect a reference from a Landlord who does not even know you were staying in the property. Your partner is the tenant on the lease, and as far as the LL knows, the only occupant, so obviously it would be normal for him to get a reference.

    You said in the first line of your op, “myself and my partner received notice”, did you mean to say your partner received notice?

    I see no reason not to ask the LL, you said he could take this a couple of ways, he has already given you notice and your partner a reference, the only adverse action I think he could take is if a prospective LL contacted him, he might tell him/her that your partner moved in an extra tenant without notification. Whether that makes any difference is anyone’s guess.

    Sorry only seeing these replies now. It's not that I'm expecting a reference (and obviously cannot get one since he doesn't know about me), it's more a case that I'm unsure as to how to broach the subject with a prospective landlord. And correct, meant to say that my partner received the notice.

    He hasn't received a reference as of yet (still a little bit down the road so I guess it'll just be given once the deposit is handed back).
    FishOnABike wrote: »
    I think that section refers more to the situation where someone moves into a house in a rent a room situation from the tenant on the lease.

    If the person in the rent a room situation wants the greater protection of being a tenant (of the landlord) rather then a licensee of the tenant renting the property.

    Preferably after six months when they would also acquire part four rights on being made a tennant, the licencee can ask the landlord to add them to the lease as a tennant and the request cannot be unreasonably refused.

    It doesn't confer any obligation on a licensee to request the landlord to add them to the lease as a tennant.

    I don't know why I'm reading that section as including the situation that I'm in. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just the way that I'm interpreting it.


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