Integrity of Estate Agents

lawrencesummers

theballz wrote: »

...................... Christ..

Hes not the sharpest.

Graham

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If you're new here, welcome. Please familiarise yourself with the forum charter before posting again.

Dav010

theballz wrote: »

Tell me how one would go about proving a ghost bidder?

You can’t, hence the reason why I’m asking how you could be fully convinced.

Why are you fully convinced then? It’s a simple question.

ontheditch2

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Of course it’s unfounded, you do understand that the process has absolutely no transparency or ability for people to seek it.

Which is the problem everybody is alluding to.

Wrong. Estate agents have to keep a record of all bids on a property, in writing, with proof of funds.
Institute of professional auctioneers and valuers regulate estate agents and would investigate any complaints made to them. So, if you think the estate agent made up bids, make a complaint and they will be investigated.
For what it is worth to an estate agent to make an extra €10k for the vendor, it wouldn't be worth the risk, for what, €150.

q85dw7osi4lebg

ontheditch2 wrote: »

Wrong. Estate agents have to keep a record of all bids on a property, in writing, with proof of funds.
Institute of professional auctioneers and valuers regulate estate agents and would investigate any complaints made to them. So, if you think the estate agent made up bids, make a complaint and they will be investigated.
For what it is worth to an estate agent to make an extra €10k for the vendor, it wouldn't be worth the risk, for what, €150.

This (bar the proof of funds)

Bare n mind the extra €150 is for the office in entirety not the individual employee.

Atlantic Dawn

In the modern age why do they exist? Basically glorified car salesmen with the only thing going for them is the control over bids being seen by the bidder and seller, completely open to being fully crooked.

lawrencesummers

ontheditch2 wrote: »

Wrong. Estate agents have to keep a record of all bids on a property, in writing, with proof of funds.
Institute of professional auctioneers and valuers regulate estate agents and would investigate any complaints made to them. So, if you think the estate agent made up bids, make a complaint and they will be investigated.
For what it is worth to an estate agent to make an extra €10k for the vendor, it wouldn't be worth the risk, for what, €150.

Wrong.
The IPAV does not regulate EA’s.

zig

It’s worth noting an observation I’ve just made.

The more people that have these anecdotes of feeling like they were outbid by a phantom bidder the less the weight of the argument becomes.

Mainly because it means a higher number people are willing to bid so high that they feel like they are bidding against themselves. It only takes two people on the one house to end up in that situation.

It’s almost like the accusations are undermining themselves.

Full disclosure: Im currently bidding on a house which I am confident is now beyond what feels market value,there is one other bidder left. And at times I had to question things but the reality is our latest bid is just as much a bid that would make someone else feel like its fake.

zig

Something else just dawned on me too, I would imagine when bidding gets very high, emotions/silly bidding starts coming into it.


What I mean is, I would imagine houses that have gone way above the asking price for instance are far more likely to be the ones where the other bidder pulls out after they win because they have had a week to think about it and start to doubt why they went so high.


This would make you feel like something suspicious is happening when the auctioneer calls you back to say they pulled out.

lawrencesummers

zig wrote: »

Something else just dawned on me too, I would imagine when bidding gets very high, emotions/silly bidding starts coming into it.


What I mean is, I would imagine houses that have gone way above the asking price for instance are far more likely to be the ones where the other bidder pulls out after they win because they have had a week to think about it and start to doubt why they went so high.


This would make you feel like something suspicious is happening when the auctioneer calls you back to say they pulled out.

Your doing a lot of imagining and feeling.

The problem that people have is the lack of transparency, the blind faith that we need to have in EA’s and the lack of comeback for issues.

Just because you “feel” a certain way about it doesn’t mean your right.

zig

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your doing a lot of imagining and feeling.

The problem that people have is the lack of transparency, the blind faith that we need to have in EA’s and the lack of comeback for issues.

Just because you “feel” a certain way about it doesn’t mean your right.

Cant argue with this (although I would say the last line is applicable to people making claims of being deceived also), I do think things will be changing as I see one major Irish estate agents has a log in to see the bids if you're bidding on a house.



I believe the rest with follow suit.

lawrencesummers

zig wrote: »

Cant argue with this (although I would say the last line is applicable to people making claims of being deceived also), I do think things will be changing as I see one major Irish estate agents has a log in to see the bids if you're bidding on a house.



I believe the rest with follow suit.

The last line is the point, people may feel (rightly or wrongly) that they have been deceived, but they can’t check so it adds to the paranoia that it happens, where the process should eliminate it and ensure people trust the process.

EstateAgent

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Wrong.
The IPAV does not regulate EA’s.

No it doesn't but the Property Services Regulatory Authority do

EstateAgent

zig wrote: »

Something else just dawned on me too, I would imagine when bidding gets very high, emotions/silly bidding starts coming into it.


What I mean is, I would imagine houses that have gone way above the asking price for instance are far more likely to be the ones where the other bidder pulls out after they win because they have had a week to think about it and start to doubt why they went so high.


This would make you feel like something suspicious is happening when the auctioneer calls you back to say they pulled out.

Couldn't agree with this more - you've hit the nail on the head.

Sometimes when bidding is really heated between multiple bidders even the EA can get a little uncomfortable with it. I usually ask people to think about what they want to do overnight rather than make instant decisions. Even still at the end of the process the top bidder can sometimes get shaky as they've offered way above the asking price. Priority no.1 for us at that point is to get it over the line asap before they change their mind!

If we lose that top bidder and contact the under bidders to see if they're still interested that's when the accusations of phantom bidders etc. are thrown at us, which is not a nice feeling tbh (not looking for sympathy, as if I'd get it here anyways!)

ashes2014

The title made me laugh-its not often you would see those words together...."Integrity of Estate Agents"

Lack of transparency in the sector is a huge issue-nobody knows if there is really another bidder, other than the estate agent.

Proof of funds-Buyers should have to show that they have finances available before a bid is accepted.

It is really unfair that a person who is not even mortgage approved can drive up the price of a house by €€€€€s by bidding on something that they may never be able to afford.

Dav010

ashes2014 wrote: »

The title made me laugh-its not often you would see those words together...."Integrity of Estate Agents"

Lack of transparency in the sector is a huge issue-nobody knows if there is really another bidder, other than the estate agent.

Proof of funds-Buyers should have to show that they have finances available before a bid is accepted.

It is really unfair that a person who is not even mortgage approved can drive up the price of a house by €€€€€s by bidding on something that they may never be able to afford.

As EAs are already required to keep a register of bids on a property, how would you feel about your identity being disclosed to other bidders requesting proof that you exist? Say your bid to as accepted but you pulled out, would you be concerned that other bidders might be annoyed with you for driving up the bidding? They now know who you are.

Personally I would insist that my identity not be disclosed, but then the other bidders might suspect my bids were made up by the EA

zig

Dav010 wrote: »

As EAs are already required to keep a register of bids on a property, how would you feel about your identity being disclosed to other bidders requesting proof that you exist? Say your bid to as accepted but you pulled out, would you be concerned that other bidders might be annoyed with you for driving up the bidding? They now know who you are.

Personally I would insist that my identity not be disclosed, but then the other bidders might suspect my bids were made up by the EA

This can be done without disclosing identities.

Dav010

zig wrote: »

This can be done without disclosing identities.

Go on.

EstateAgent

zig wrote: »

This can be done without disclosing identities.

Identities would have to be disclosed to give suspicious folk the comfort they need. Otherwise they will always suspect foul play no matter how the system works

zig

Dav010 wrote: »

Go on.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I mean this could be done without revealing identities to other bidders. I dont think anyone would be on for that.

But I think there should the facility to verify bids with an independent party who does have access to these bids.

I guess if you could query (perhaps even for a small fee) some government service that simply checks the bids on the house, verifies proof of funds were provided etc and then confirms to you that they are all legit and funded bids.

q85dw7osi4lebg

zig wrote: »

Sorry I should have been clearer, I mean this could be done without revealing identities to other bidders. I dont think anyone would be on for that.

But I think there should the facility to verify bids with an independent party who does have access to these bids.

I guess if you could query (perhaps even for a small fee) some government service that simply checks the bids on the house, verifies proof of funds were provided etc and then confirms to you that they are all legit and funded bids.

Or you could just stop being a conspiracy theorist which is absolutely free.

EstateAgent

zig wrote: »

Sorry I should have been clearer, I mean this could be done without revealing identities to other bidders. I dont think anyone would be on for that.

But I think there should the facility to verify bids with an independent party who does have access to these bids.

I guess if you could query (perhaps even for a small fee) some government service that simply checks the bids on the house, verifies proof of funds were provided etc and then confirms to you that they are all legit and funded bids.

This is literally in place already with the PSRA and it doesn't cost anything. Make a complaint to them and they have the authority to check the log of offers which all EA's are obliged to have on file.

zig

EstateAgent wrote: »

This is literally in place already with the PSRA and it doesn't cost anything. Make a complaint to them and they have the authority to check the log of offers which all EA's are obliged to have on file.

Good to hear, and does this log have proof of funds for the bid as well? Do they respond to you? Or is it a case that you just make a complaint if you suspect something but nothing more comes of it from the complainants points of view?

Dav010

zig wrote: »

Good to hear, and does this log have proof of funds for the bid as well? Do they respond to you? Or is it a case that you just make a complaint if you suspect something but nothing more comes of it from the complainants points of view?

Proof of funds is not a requirement to make a bid. It may be requested by the seller/EA in order for a bid to be considered. If you make a complaint the log of bids is checked, but you are not entitled to the names of those bidders so you would still suspect they were made up.

EstateAgent

zig wrote: »

Good to hear, and does this log have proof of funds for the bid as well? Do they respond to you? Or is it a case that you just make a complaint if you suspect something but nothing more comes of it from the complainants points of view?

Thankfully I've never been investigated by the PSRA so I'm not entirely sure how the process works first hand :cool::D

However I can tell you that getting proof of finance is not a requirement to make a bid as Dav010 says above. An EA is not breaking the law if they don't request it. Unfortunately I don't see you getting the comfort you need on this one. Some agents ask for proof of finance, some don't. Most will ask for it before going sale agreed with the top bidder at a minimum.

I say we all direct our frustrations to the bidders that are bidding without having the funds in place rather than the EA's...:P

EstateAgent

zig wrote: »

Good to hear, and does this log have proof of funds for the bid as well? Do they respond to you? Or is it a case that you just make a complaint if you suspect something but nothing more comes of it from the complainants points of view?

By the way several agents have definitely had penalties applied to them since the PSRA has come in to force. I think one received a €25k fine last year for something if I remember correctly. I'm just not sure how the communication works between the PSRA and the complainant etc.

Snotty

2009, recession was just digging its teeth in and the country was in the gutter, I was looking at a house in rural Mayo, edge of a town 3 bed semi that had been on the market for 18+ months, cant remember what the asking prices was but went to view it and EA said there was a bid received "yesterday" maybe 10% less than asking and asking was most certainly celtic tiger prices. This house was on the market for ages, had even fallen into a state of disrepair in those few months.
Of course I laughed and told the EA to grab it, said there was no point looking any further and walked out the door. Smugly I'm thinking to myself that I'm too smart to fall for such an obvious tactic by this slimy EA. Next week there was a sale agreed board put up and it was sold a number of months later.

I'm not saying trust EA's, I wouldn't trust the majority of them but sometimes when it looks 110% dishonest, like in this case, it was just some buyer would was either really stupid or just really really wanted the property.

zig

Snotty wrote: »

2009, recession was just digging its teeth in and the country was in the gutter, I was looking at a house in rural Mayo, edge of a town 3 bed semi that had been on the market for 18+ months, cant remember what the asking prices was but went to view it and EA said there was a bid received "yesterday" maybe 10% less than asking and asking was most certainly celtic tiger prices. This house was on the market for ages, had even fallen into a state of disrepair in those few months.
Of course I laughed and told the EA to grab it, said there was no point looking any further and walked out the door. Smugly I'm thinking to myself that I'm too smart to fall for such an obvious tactic by this slimy EA. Next week there was a sale agreed board put up and it was sold a number of months later.

I'm not saying trust EA's, I wouldn't trust the majority of them but sometimes when it looks 110% dishonest, like in this case, it was just some buyer would was either really stupid or just really really wanted the property.

I was convinced of something similar about 6 months ago, we were told by the EA the buyer would snatch it off us even at a reduced offer cause he was desperate to sell. It had been sitting there for a few weeks, we enquired again and he said the situation still stands and the buyer is desperate to sell. We then put in a super low ball offer as we didnt see the value of it being any higher. Less than 24 hours the EA got back with a slightly higher offer from someone else.

We were convinced it was a fake buyer, or some friend of the sellers or something just to try get a little more money, as we werent crazy keen on the house we left it off. But the house is on Property Price Register now for the price of that counter offer.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Just be warned if you make a complaint your name will be passed onto the agent in correspondence so make of that what you will, if you are considering other properties in the area.