Unpopular Opinions - OP Updated with Threadban List 4/5/21

Antares35

Hamachi wrote: »

I really wish that the religious / semi-religious and atheists could stop needling one another.

It’s not right that a child and his/her family should feel ‘odd’ or excluded for choosing not to participate in the sacraments. There should be viable alternative activities, in which the kids can engage, whilst their classmates are preparing for communion or to be confirmed.

On the other hand, I object to this indoctrination or inability to think independently narrative that atheists propagate. My children will be attending catholic schools and will be receiving the sacraments. My wife and I are both well educated and work in intellectually challenging careers. We are in no way indoctrinated; we just believe that this is the right thing for our kids. Many other families feel similarly.

Now I do accept that catholic patronage of such a high % of schools is an issue for parents who do not wish their kids to be exposed to Catholicism. Unfortunately for you, that’s the reality in Ireland today. As I say above, hopefully the school will put in place alternatives for the cohort of children who are opted out by their families. However, I’d ask you to also consider that very many families, quite possibly the majority, are happy enough for their children to participate and have no major objections to faith formation. It’s got nothing to do with indoctrination.

Nothing you have said supports the existence of religion in our education system. Telling me that it is there as a statement of fact is not telling me anything new or enlightening.

And I don't "needle" other parents, I simply don't want my child to have anything to do with an institution with such a dirty past. If that makes me anti religious, so be it and we will leave it there.

Hamachi

Antares35 wrote: »

Nothing you have said supports the existence of religion in our education system. Telling me that it is there as a statement of fact is not telling me anything new or enlightening.

And I don't "needle" other parents, I simply don't want my child to have anything to do with an institution with such a dirty past. If that makes me anti religious, so be it and we will leave it there.

Surely it can’t come as a surprise that a catholic school promotes catholic teaching? I don’t mean that facetiously and I do sympathize with you on the lack of alternatives that exist in Ireland today.

I’m not suggesting you needle other parents. I’m simply stating that both sides of this argument unnecessarily antagonize one another. I 100% support your right to opt your children out and to do whatever you believe is right. That’s entirely your business.

However, whatever your thoughts on the Catholic Church, identifying those who disagree with you as ‘indoctrinated’ or incapable of independent thought, is a statement that will be challenged. Other families just choose to live and believe differently.

walshb

Antares35 wrote: »

Does not wanting your child indoctrinated into a particular religion while they are supposed to be getting an education make you "anti- religion"?

It's ironic that you choose to use the word fashionable - fashion being something that the herds blindly follow without thinking for themselves. Now who does that remind me of...

Talk about an overreaction ...

Indoctrination my arse. This is not the 1950s...

Relax.

ohnonotgmail

walshb wrote: »

Talk about an overreaction ...

Indoctrination my arse. This is not the 1950s...

Relax.

how else would you describe the forced religious education of children?

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how else would you describe the forced religious education of children?

Catholic schools do what they say on the tin. There’s no coercion involved. Do you see the Muslim school in Clonskeagh as a vehicle for indoctrination?

Many parents in this country are happy for their children to receive a catholic education. Presumably you support their freedom of choice?

Antares35

walshb wrote: »

This is not the 1950s...

What a benchmark to set your standards by

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

Catholic schools do what they say on the tin. There’s no coercion involved. Do you see the Muslim school in Clonskeagh as a vehicle for indoctrination?

Many parents in this country are happy for their children to receive a catholic education. Presumably you support their freedom of choice?

and many are not but they don't have a choice because the only local school is run by the church. they don't have a choice.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and many are not but they don't have a choice because the only local school is run by the church. they don't have a choice.

Yes. I agree that’s a problem. There should be more non-religious schools to accommodate those parents.

The 2016 census suggested that 78% of the population seem themselves as (nominally) catholic. This suggests that 65% - 75% of people likely have few issues sending their children to catholic schools.

I do agree that 25% - 35% of schools should be non- religious. Then both sets of parents can get on with parenting in the way they see fit and this tedious antagonism becomes moot.

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

Yes. I agree that’s a problem. There should be more non-religious schools to accommodate those parents.

The 2016 census suggested that 78% of the population seem themselves as (nominally) catholic. This suggests that 65% - 75% of people likely have few issues sending their children to catholic schools.

I do agree that 25% - 35% of schools should be non- religious. Then both sets of parents can get on with parenting in the way they see fit and this tedious antagonism becomes moot.

it is not enough that 25-35% of schools are non-religious. that is no good to parents that dont live close to one of those schools. Religion should be removed entirely from schools. If those 65-75% of parents that claim to be catholic want their child to get a religious education they can arrange it separately or do it themselves. you would soon find that the 65-75% figure is a lie.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Religion should be removed entirely from schools. If those 65-75% of parents that claim to be catholic want their child to get a religious education they can arrange it separately or do it themselves. you would soon find that the 65-75% figure is a lie.

So we get to the crux of the matter. You want to mandate what’s best for the entire population based on your anti-religious viewpoint.

Unfortunately for you, things don’t work like that in a democracy. The breathtaking arrogance of you speaking for the majority of the population is of course lost on you. You know better than the people who explicitly choose to identify in a particular way on a national census?

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

So we get to the crux of the matter. You want to mandate what’s best for the entire population based on your anti-religious viewpoint.

Unfortunately for you, things don’t work like that in a democracy. The breathtaking arrogance of you speaking for the majority of the population is of course lost on you. You know better than the people who explicitly choose to identify in a particular way on a national census?

the breathtaking arrogance of those who think they can impose their religious beliefs on the children of others. do you see how that works? that majority is a majority in name only. that was my point.

ShyMets

In terms of Religion in school. From my own point of view as a parent while I would prefer that it wasn't. The fact that it is doesn't particularly bother me too much.

And I suspect thats how most parents feel. If it wasn't we'd be seeing huge demand for change which we just aren't

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the breathtaking arrogance of those who think they can impose their religious beliefs on the children of others. do you see how that works? that majority is a majority in name only. that was my point.

Do you struggle with reading comprehension? I explicitly said that those who are non-religious should have alternatives. Conversely, you seem to believe that those who want a faith-based school, be denied that option.

You know it’s ‘in name’ only? Have you personally probed the belief system of the > 3.5 million Catholics in this country? Can you point to data that supports that statement? If not, the census seems like a reasonable barometer to me.

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

Do you struggle with reading comprehension? I explicitly said that those who are non-religious should have alternatives. Conversely, you seem to believe that those who want a faith-based school, be denied that option.

You know it’s ‘in name’ only? Have you personally probed the belief system of the > 3.5 million Catholics in this country? Can you point to data that supports that statement? If not, the census seems like a reasonable barometer to me.

if you want a faith-based school pay for it yourself. The state shouldn't pay for religious indoctrination.

Hamachi

ShyMets wrote: »

In terms of Religion in school. From my own point of view as a parent while I would prefer that it wasn't. The fact that it is doesn't particularly bother me too much.

And I suspect thats how most parents feel. If it wasn't we'd be seeing huge demand for change which we just aren't

Thank you.

I suspect your moderate outlook is pretty representative of large swathes of the population.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if you want a faith-based school pay for it yourself. The state shouldn't pay for religious indoctrination.

If you feel that strongly about it, why not enter political life and lobby for change?

Let me know how get on.

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

If you feel that strongly about it, why not enter political life and lobby for change?

Let me know how get on.

Atheist Ireland are already strongly involved in this area. Thanks for asking.

Religion should obviously be an opt-in when it comes to education.

Jequ0n

It’s bizarre to see religion taught in school but I guess it will be dropped in time. It should be optional so parents can force it on their own offspring instead of everyone having to endure it.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Atheist Ireland are already strongly involved in this area. Thanks for asking.

Cool. So hopefully you get your allocation of non-religious schools in future and those who believe or are moderate, are spared listening to your viewpoint for eternity.

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

Cool. So hopefully you get your allocation of non-religious schools in future and those who believe or are moderate, are spared listening to your viewpoint for eternity.

hopefully all schools will be non-religious. nobody is forcing you to read my posts. feel free to put me on ignore.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

hopefully all schools will be non-religious. nobody is forcing you to read my posts. feel free to put me on ignore.

Why would I put you on ignore?

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

Why would I put you on ignore?

you seem to find my opinions painful to read for some reason and you have serious objections to me expressing them.

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you seem to find my opinions painful to read for some reason.

Not at all. I just disagree with you on mandating what’s best for the entire population.

Like I said, I fully support anti-religious people to have that option of non-religious schooling.

ohnonotgmail

Hamachi wrote: »

So we get to the crux of the matter. You want to mandate what’s best for the entire population based on your anti-religious viewpoint.

Unfortunately for you, things don’t work like that in a democracy. The breathtaking arrogance of you speaking for the majority of the population is of course lost on you. You know better than the people who explicitly choose to identify in a particular way on a national census?

Hamachi wrote: »

Do you struggle with reading comprehension? I explicitly said that those who are non-religious should have alternatives. Conversely, you seem to believe that those who want a faith-based school, be denied that option.

You know it’s ‘in name’ only? Have you personally probed the belief system of the > 3.5 million Catholics in this country? Can you point to data that supports that statement? If not, the census seems like a reasonable barometer to me.

Hamachi wrote: »

Not at all. I just disagree with you on mandating what’s best for the entire population.

Like I said, I fully support anti-religious people to have that option of non-religious schooling.

yeah, right.

walshb

The teaching of religion today is not at all comparable to the bible bashing indoctrination and madness of years past. kids being beaten and humiliated into believing..

Religion today is far more easy and gentle and inclusive. Times have changed dramatically..

I don’t get this anti religion stuff today based off the OTT pressing and pushing if it from years ago..

There is absolutely is a place for religion in schools. Some standards and morals and scruples should be encouraged..

I am not really religious, but simply due to not really caring..

I’d have 0 issue with my children being taught some religion. There’s plenty good to be found in its teachings..

I am old enough and wise enough to know that the vast vast majority of goodness that my children will get will be from me and their mother..

In other words. Relax. It’s 2021, not 1950. Our children are just fine!

Hamachi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yeah, right.

I’m seeing a trend here.

You don’t believe the majority of the population’s self-identification on the census. You don’t believe people when they tell you that you have the right to whatever schooling you choose.

If you don’t believe, you don’t believe. I can’t do anything about that.

Antares35

walshb wrote: »

There is absolutely is a place for religion in schools. Some standards and morals and scruples should be encouraged..

Religion is not a pre-requisite to good morals or scruples.

ohnonotgmail

walshb wrote: »

The teaching of religion today is not at all comparable to the bible bashing indoctrination and madness of years past. kids being beaten and humiliated into believing..

Religion today is far more easy and gentle and inclusive. Times have changed dramatically..

I don’t get this anti religion stuff today based off the OTT pressing and pushing if it from years ago..

There is absolutely is a place for religion in schools. Some standards and morals and scruples should be encouraged..

I am not really religious, but simply due to not really caring..

I’d have 0 issue with my children being taught some religion. There’s plenty good to be found in its teachings..

I am old enough and wise enough to know that the vast vast majority of goodness that my children will get will be from me and their mother..

In other words. Relax. It’s 2021, not 1950. Our children are just fine!

yeah the morals and scruples of the catholic church are what we should be teaching kids.

The Raging Bile Duct

walshb wrote: »

Whistleblowers..

Also known as busybody snitches!

This is one of the most idiotic comments I've read on here.