If it ever arrives, fiber broadband could be obsolete in a few years

Impetus

Most of the arguments surrounding national broadband plan relate to who owns it and who pays for it. While these are important considerations, the capacity and latency of the system being bought needs to be scaled with the long term demand in mind. Backhaul traffic from mobile phone cellsites is growing at 66% pa. 5G mobile (which will put a strain on existing backhaul infrastructure to put it mildly) is live in some European countries (eg Switzerland and Monaco) and 8K TVs are on sale in any decent gadget shop in Europe.

At 120 frames per second, the raw video data feed for 8K TV is 48 Gbits/sec! Naturally there will be compression to reduce the volume of data required, but broadcast TV is dead. Most content today is on demand. Which means that every video device will have its tailored content feed, on demand, which means TV is transported over the internet. This will lead to massive data transportation infrastructure requirement, especially with resolution improvements.

Which fiber optic technologies support these speeds? NG-PON2 supports 40 Gbps down and 10 up. And there are higher capacity options.

‘Pay as you grow’ is one option. The optical distribution network allows for technology upgrades as demand increases. Eg from GPON to XG-PON to NG-PON2 and WDM/TDM PON (the latter will have a reach of 100 km and speed of 100 Gbps down, 10 up). Using this strategy, your expensive network is given a longer shelf life, because it uses the same infrastructure to connect each premises. Whoever owns it. And whatever speed it works at.

Mobile backhaul (from cellsite to switching centre) will need ever increasing capacity with the move to 5G and 6G, not to mention the internet of everything – especially cars – which will require good quality high speed coverage with low latency everywhere.

In my view the worst scenario would be for gov.ie to allow a fiber optic network with a short shelf-life to be built, at great cost to the taxpayer. Which will need to be replaced in a decade or two to deal with what one might regard as ‘bleeding edge’ technology today, which becomes common place tomorrow. Which is the norm for gadgets. It would be like replacing the motorway network with a new network of 8 or 10 lanes, using greenfield land. And letting the old motorway rot in the ground turning back to nature etc.

The requirements need to be defined in detail. When done, there will be a known quantity in terms of specification for the service for bidders to react to.

The other issue is that it needs to be a single common shared infrastructure. There is no point in having a WDM/TDM network, if other companies decide to build their own networks. No more than a country needs two electricity grids and two lots of ugly high tension cables spanning the place. In this respect both Eir and Siro have failed. All one needs is a system that uses a SIM card, which would allow a user to move from supplier A to B by simply exchanging the SIM card. No truck roll needed etc.

Larbre34

Quite right, this nonsense about the State retaining ownership of the broadband infrastructure is fools gold.

The only things the State should retain are the underground conduit network and the strategic mast and pylon locations, for re-sale to the highest bidder as technology evolves. Other than that, the tech itself is a market speculation by the Telcos and some will invest wisely and some won't. Some solutions will be money spinners and some won't. The taxpayer cannot be on the hook for assets that evaporate in the night.

ED E

Eric Cartman

They can deliver 8k video streams encoded with HEVC at about 40-50Mbps already. Fiber isn't anywhere near dead and the next DOCSIS (virgin media) standard is capable of 10Gbps.

KildareP

Not really sure what you are getting at, are you suggesting it should be done wirelessly?

Optical fibre as a medium does not age any more than air as a medium ages.

An optical fibre network requires poles and cables.

A fixed wireless network needs towers, power and bandwidth - significantly more than we have now.

The vast majority of those towers get their backhaul fed by fibre - the three mobile operators here are all bringing fibre as far out to the radio access network as possible, a trend reflected globally.

Globally, too, wireless as a delivery medium is being placed as a secondary or supplementary offering to an underlying primary cabled offering - Vodafone Group, Iliad (Eir), BT, Telefonica, Verizon, AT&T all investing significant amounts in building out fibre footprint to the premises despite having wireless networks already in place. Some even started from scratch having only operated wirelessly prior. Not without good reason. They’re not planning on using 5G as a replacement to traditional fixed networks.

Others, LGI (Virgin Media), Comcast, Spectrum are rebuilding pure fibre in place of existing hybrid-fibre-coax networks. They’re not going wireless either.

If on the OpenEir network you can switch to another supplier on the OpenEir network relatively seamlessly, no tech visit, just a new modem - even that doesn’t strictly need to be done either! Same with vodafone, albeit with a much smaller group of resellers.

NBI will retail to anyone who wants it, and generally, will cover the areas Siro and OpenEir don’t. So the SIM card analogy, by right, will apply no matter who your chosen supplier (assuming they choose to provide service via NBI). And no needless duplication of network in what will be the most sparsely populated areas of this island.

For usage patterns, we aren’t going to see anywhere near those demands you mention - a visually lossless 4K@24fps DCI played out in your local cinema still comes in under a maximum allowed peak of 250Mbps. That’s a €10k server feeding a €15k+ projector. At best a household might have a “good TV” capable of playing maximum quality while the rest are much lower spec with lower demands or even lower capability. A household also wants convenience - a stable stream that doesn’t hog battery, buffer endlessly, and increasingly doesn’t even need a cable.

The weakest link in your average household is the WiFi signal, not the internet connection!

tsue921i8wljb3

plodder

If fibre could be obsolete in a few years, then there must be something else on the horizon to replace it. But, all the future improvements identified by the OP are based on fibre There is nothing on the horizon to replace it.

Of course, that doesn't matter, as the intended audience for the OP will only read the title, and see a load of impressive buzzwords in the text.

Orebro

Wow - an entire rant on fibre going obsolete and not one mention of Elon Musk and Satellites - I'm impressed!

gussieg

I thought Switzerland had said no to 5G, but hey





https://mdsafetech.org/2019/07/20/the-first-report-of-5g-injury-from-switzerland/

TheChizler

gussieg wrote: »

I thought Switzerland had said no to 5G, but hey

https://mdsafetech.org/2019/07/20/the-first-report-of-5g-injury-from-switzerland/

Can't tell if that's a crank site, or a crank article on an otherwise sensible site...

oscarBravo

TheChizler wrote: »

Can't tell if that's a crank site, or a crank article on an otherwise sensible site...

They're wittering on about WiFi in schools, so I'd say the former.

kaahooters

fiber is glass, and we've been using it for about 5000 years now.

i see no reason not to continue

so seriously, you do understand that the actually fiber is a glass cable, that transports light?

fieldofsheep

Hmmm, I was under the impression that fibre broadband had already arrived - maybe the 300mbs I've been getting for the last 18 months is really being delivered by two tin cans and a string.  Notwithstanding the fibre backhaul required to power 5G, I've always viewed mobile broadband provision to be exactly that - internet access when you're out and about as opposed to a fixed location.  Providing fixed line fibre access to the home would free up the bandwidth for the likes of IOT devices and mobile users.
The rollout of FTTH to the vast majority of homes on the island is a statement of intent and ambition for the future - what kind of connected society could we build if it was underpinned by near universal fibre-quality infrastructure?

Impetus

Eric Cartman wrote: »

They can deliver 8k video streams encoded with HEVC at about 40-50Mbps already. Fiber isn't anywhere near dead and the next DOCSIS (virgin media) standard is capable of 10Gbps.

I did mention that compression was a factor. I was simply trying to point to the need for scalability in terms of capacity and speed. Having said that I would have my doubts about the picture quality of say a fast moving sporting event in 8k video with good sound quality being compressed to 40 Mbits/sec - even with H.265 (HVEC).

Ireland has a history of half-baked exercises which are a total waste of money. Eg all the property tax types over the past 10 plus years. Each one had its own software/hardware platform.

The same goes for ID cards. Ireland has no ID card, unlike every other EU country (now that GB is virtually gone from the EU). But the country is full of half-baked ID cards for a multitude of purposes - eg social protection (not that there is much of that in Ireland), alcohol drinking age, passport cards (that do not work in mechanised systems most other EU countries, forcing one to use a book passport), etc. No Irish ID card works for travel within the EU.

With the odd exception, the country is administered to death by some very incompetent people.

ED E

Politics sent this thread to us because they don't want it, can we do the same and foist it on Helpdesk or R&R?

Impetus

KildareP wrote: »

Not really sure what you are getting at, are you suggesting it should be done wirelessly?

No. Wireless has its place in a communications system. My reference to wireless was in relation to its increasing data payload and the need to be able to transport it. A country with a high capacity open fiber system does not need the waste of three or more mobile carriers creating their own backhaul infrastructure over fiber or anything else. It is a waste of trench digging, crap on poles, etc. And a waste of global capital spend by a country.

KildareP wrote: »

An optical fibre network requires poles and cables.

A fixed wireless network needs towers, power and bandwidth - significantly more than we have now.

Which is why I am suggesting that the country needs a single 'motorway' system which will meet the needs of FTTP and cellular and anything else thrown in its direction in the future.

KildareP wrote: »

Globally, too, wireless as a delivery medium is being placed as a secondary or supplementary offering to an underlying primary cabled offering - Vodafone Group, Iliad (Eir), BT, Telefonica, Verizon, AT&T all investing significant amounts in building out fibre footprint to the premises despite having wireless networks already in place. Some even started from scratch having only operated wirelessly prior. Not without good reason. They’re not planning on using 5G as a replacement to traditional fixed networks.

You are underscoring the needless duplication of 'motorways' in a country's telecommunications infrastructure.

KildareP wrote: »

The weakest link in your average household is the WiFi signal, not the internet connection!

Please stop trying to lead people down the garden path. I wasn't advocating WiFi. And if WiFi speeds/capacity worry you there will be 802.11 BE any day now.


Wireless will not work to provide national fixed high capacity broadband services in any country. Please stop trying to twist the story!

Impetus

plodder wrote: »

If fibre could be obsolete in a few years, then there must be something else on the horizon to replace it. But, all the future improvements identified by the OP are based on fibre There is nothing on the horizon to replace it.

Of course, that doesn't matter, as the intended audience for the OP will only read the title, and see a load of impressive buzzwords in the text.

You are missing the point. Which is a fiber platform needs to be open and scaled on a 'pay to grow' basis. This means you install a fiber infrastructure which can handle a million cars travelling at 120 km/h today. But in n years time, when we have autonomous driving etc and more people, you will perhaps need a system that can handle four million cars travelling at say 180 km/h using computer navigation etc. To use an analogy. Only in the area of telecommunications, the numbers and scaling will be several hundred times the cars on a motorway analogy.

Impetus

gussieg wrote: »

I thought Switzerland had said no to 5G, but hey


https://mdsafetech.org/2019/07/20/the-first-report-of-5g-injury-from-switzerland/

CH has more 5G cellsites than any other country in Europe.
https://www.speedtest.net/ookla-5g-map

Impetus

kaahooters wrote: »

fiber is glass, and we've been using it for about 5000 years now.

i see no reason not to continue

so seriously, you do understand that the actually fiber is a glass cable, that transports light?

You are missing the point. The glass fiber cable architecture needs to be open for service providers and growth in capacity/demand and speed as technology evolves.

Impetus

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Hmmm, I was under the impression that fibre broadband had already arrived - maybe the 300mbs I've been getting for the last 18 months is really being delivered by two tin cans and a string. Notwithstanding the fibre backhaul required to power 5G, I've always viewed mobile broadband provision to be exactly that - internet access when you're out and about as opposed to a fixed location. Providing fixed line fibre access to the home would free up the bandwidth for the likes of IOT devices and mobile users.
The rollout of FTTH to the vast majority of homes on the island is a statement of intent and ambition for the future - what kind of connected society could we build if it was underpinned by near universal fibre-quality infrastructure?

There is a lot of 'fake fiber' around in advertising of broadband. Comreg was talking about banning the use of fiber unless it referred to FTTP (fiber to the premises). About time. As people are clearly confused.

Impetus

Irish politicians are either not interested in broadband or are incapable of understanding the detail. Hence the mess the country is in. It also applies to health, financial management (the EUR 200+ bn debt they have allowed to accumulate) - which future generations will be suffering from ad infinitum in terms of higher taxes and less money to spend on their families, education, child care, and one could go on and on.

OneEightSeven

4K, nevermind 8K, TVs are a waste of money for most people because you need to sit unrealistically close to the TV to experience the full definition or buy an enormous TV that wouldn't fit into most homes:

plodder

Impetus wrote: »

You are missing the point. Which is a fiber platform needs to be open and scaled on a 'pay to grow' basis. This means you install a fiber infrastructure which can handle a million cars travelling at 120 km/h today. But in n years time, when we have autonomous driving etc and more people, you will perhaps need a system that can handle four million cars travelling at say 180 km/h using computer navigation etc. To use an analogy. Only in the area of telecommunications, the numbers and scaling will be several hundred times the cars on a motorway analogy.

Demand for future increase in bandwidth will be met by either running additional fibre cables (which is something not possible with the wireless so-called solutions), or more likely for the ordinary end user, improvements in the signaling systems used over the existing fibre infrastructure. We are much closer to the beginning of the development of fibre than to its end. Compare with the copper phone network. When I was in college 30 years ago, the first data communications modem I came across was a V21 acoustic coupler at 300 bits per second. Now we have VDSL2 which can go up to 200 million bits per second. It's not unreasonable to imagine that fibre will undergo some significant level of improvement as well.

The previous post about TV sizes is interesting also. It reminds me a bit about digital camera sensors. Consumers think that photos taken with a 20 Mbit sensor must be better than a 5 Mbit sensor, when in reality that is not true at all. So long as it is available, demand for higher bandwidth will increase. Whether there actually is a need for it, is an entirely different question, as we see here every time someone with FTTH asks if they should go for the 1 Gb package as compared with the lowest 128 Mbit package. Few if any consumers have a need for 1 Gb bandwidth at the present time.

TheChizler

plodder wrote: »

When I was in college 30 years ago, the first data communications modem I came across was a V21 acoustic coupler at 300 bits per second. Now we have VDSL2 which can go up to 200 million bits per second. It's not unreasonable to imagine that fibre will undergo some significant level of improvement as well.

Considering the maximum data rate over a single fibre is now measured in the hundreds of Terabits per second, the improvements (to fibre) are already there. The next trick is to bring the cost and size of the equipment down. I'm working on products that will run 100GbE over the same fibre that existed 20 years ago and the cost of components isn't all that bad, not consumer level yet but not far off either.

Cuddlesworth

This is satire right? Isn't 8k uncompressed around 84 Gbits/s?

Amateur Wizard

The maximum theorhetical bandwidth of a single optical cable is above 1 Petabit per second...There is no question on whether we use fiber. It is a question of to what extent.

This is infrastructure it is always a step between what we have now and what will be available. FTTP should be the goal for all high population areas at least. Rural regions are more difficult to handle but can be covered by many other means. 5G not being one of them, 4G most likely as it aids in the handover from public WiFi (High Population Areas (HPA)) to low.

Amateur Wizard

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

This is satire right? Isn't 8k uncompressed around 84 Gbits/s?

I hope to God it is. Literally no one has 8K uncompressed footage let alone customer with the hardware to stream it.

This person's doing some 4D chess I'd say.

is_that_so

Who's even watching 4K? Was told to stay clear of it in considering a TV purchase.

Impetus

is_that_so wrote: »

Who's even watching 4K? Was told to stay clear of it in considering a TV purchase.

4K TVs are common place. Over 100 million units shipped a year.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/4k-quickly-becoming-standard-for-tv-sales

I have looked at 8K sets in shops, playing 8k video from USB storage. Upscaled 4K looks much better on 8K sets (than on 4k). France is broadcasting 4K on DTT. France started broadcasting 4k TV initially in Paris, and is now rolling it out to provincial cities.

Apartments in Japan, which was the first country to broadcast in 8K have small rooms by European and American standards. There are about 140 4K TV channels, mainly in Europe.

I have had the same arguments here with people various when HD TV was the norm in France and other European countries, and Ireland was still playing with standard definition or HD ready (which was a con trick to sell non HD TV sets purporting to be HD). Ireland is invariably the last to develop infrastructure, and when it does it often does not bother to learn from the experience elsewhere. Re-inventing the wheel. At great expense. Like the stupid 'Eircode' system nobody seems to use. Which was probably the most expensive 'post code' system ever installed in a country. The country is still stuck with nearly half the houses not having house numbers or street names. Which is third world.

Impetus

TheChizler wrote: »

Considering the maximum data rate over a single fibre is now measured in the hundreds of Terabits per second, the improvements (to fibre) are already there. The next trick is to bring the cost and size of the equipment down. I'm working on products that will run 100GbE over the same fibre that existed 20 years ago and the cost of components isn't all that bad, not consumer level yet but not far off either.

My point in legal terms is to ensure that the monopoly which is granted to this broadband infrastructure provider

1) Is open for future network technology upgrades
2) Is open to multiple service providers so there is competition for product
3) Is open to cellular providers for backhaul in particular. The 5G cellsite density will have to be far greater (due to the higher frequencies) than current cellular air interfaces. There should be provision for the pooling of existing fiber resources into a single network.

If the country allows a monopoly to grab control of the key backbone, the contract and regulations under which that company operates are critical in terms of delivering state of the art services long into the future.

ItHurtsWhenIP

Me: ...

Me: ...

Me: ...

Me: BAH!

I use Eircodes nearly every single day, as do a lot of business people I know. It allows me to navigate To. The. Door. of the clients that I haven't been to before.

oscarBravo

ItHurtsWhenIP wrote: »

I use Eircodes nearly every single day, as do a lot of business people I know. It allows me to navigate To. The. Door. of the clients that I haven't been to before.

You mean Impy is wrong about something he has confidently stated as an incontrovertible fact?

Well, there's a first.

Impetus

OneEightSeven wrote: »

4K, nevermind 8K, TVs are a waste of money for most people because you need to sit unrealistically close to the TV to experience the full definition or buy an enormous TV that wouldn't fit into most homes:

The measurement in your table look like something laid out according to the Law of Æthelberht (7th century).

8K TVs can be watched at closer range. Samsung has a 139 cm screen 8K QLED which can be got for just over EUR 3’000 in many European countries.

Impetus

oscarBravo wrote: »

You mean Impy is wrong about something he has confidently stated as an incontrovertible fact?

Well, there's a first.

I think the list of people who don't use them is far longer than the list of people/companies who do. Just look at house hunting advertisements? Or watch mail or packages being sorted at a sorting office or DHL location. Or stand in a post office and look at the addresses on letters people are buying stamps to post.

For example, the concept that the outcode (eg A21) is a postal district has escaped many people (outside of the Dublin area who would obviously recognise D24 as being a district). Unfortunately it has been designed to be obtuse. Without the end-user in mind.

Impetus

Yourtube has several heavily compressed 8k videos, which I have no problem watching from home, with a 1GB connection. These are nothing close to 8K reality in terms of picture quality.

I am using Virgin Media at the moment, (speedtest says 370 Mbits/sec down 18 ms ping 2ms jitter). On the 1GB home connection I would get about 990 Mbits/sec down, 3 ms ping (to the ISP's server) and 0 jitter).

Play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1La4QzGeaaQ
Set the speed (cogwheel) to 4320p 60 frames/sec.
I get video buffering - I am sole user using a wired ethernet 10 GB wired connection to the ISP's box. The workstation has a 10 GB adapter.

Given the high compression used by Google/Youtube, this video should be playable in real time without buffering delays.

(I pay more for this holiday home Virgin Media than I do for the 1 GB service, I use every day).

Virgin Media is a third rate company. In a second rate country. Where the vast majority of people put up with crap. And pay over the odds for the crap 'service'.

fieldofsheep

Well, there’s a site you can go to and enter your stupid eircode to see if you qualify for obsolete fibre optic broadband -

https://fibrerollout.ie/

Knock yourself out

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

I think the list of people who don't use them is far longer than the list of people/companies who do.

This may come as a shock to you - you might want to sit down:

Just because you think something doesn't make it so.

The Cush

Off topic I know for the thread but relevant to the discussion on eircodes (didn't have anywhere else to post it) …

Got given out to by a (new) courier driver last week because he had a package for a family member in his van for a week because he couldn't find the house as there was no Eircode and he advised she should include it in her orders in future … I was shocked … didn't have quick reply for him as he walked away. What's the world coming to at all … strangers telling us to use Eircodes. :eek:

Impetus

fieldofsheep wrote: »

Well, there’s a site you can go to and enter your stupid eircode to see if you qualify for obsolete fibre optic broadband -

https://fibrerollout.ie/

Knock yourself out

We Mr Sheep, you underscore one of my points (the need for an open fiber platform).

The website you point to tells me that it has no FTTP to the premises in question. It does offer 'up to 30 Mbits/sec' (called 'Fibre Broadband' which it is not, it is a flavour of DSL they are trying to peddle). Which is a false description in my view of the product on offer.

Meanwhile there has been a SIRO fiber optic cable hanging pre-installed for the past year on a public lamp post, with a roll of fiber on the pole, which no service provider I have contacted has been given access to. (Which underscores to me how dozy Siro is).

The website also requires my PSTN number in addition to an Eircode. As there is no landline in the house (it uses VoIP/SIP phones) it has no PSTN number. I used an old phone number that used to exist here instead. The Eircode is useless on its own on this website.

In a word, shambolic.

Impetus

The Cush wrote: »

Off topic I know for the thread but relevant to the discussion on eircodes (didn't have anywhere else to post it) …

Got given out to by a (new) courier driver last week because he had a package for a family member in his van for a week because he couldn't find the house as there was no Eircode and he advised she should include it in her orders in future … I was shocked … didn't have quick reply for him as he walked away. What's the world coming to at all … strangers telling us to use Eircodes. :eek:

Courier / delivery people often use a mobile phone app - eg Autoaddress. Unfortunately where it is really needed, there are no numbers on doors or gates and there is no mobile data coverage either. Thanks to another shambles that is 'one-off housing'.

Impetus

oscarBravo wrote: »

This may come as a shock to you - you might want to sit down:

Just because you think something doesn't make it so.

It doesn't shock me at all Osca. Nobody knows everything. But what has that got to do with the essence of my posting please?

TheChizler

Ah this is just a rant about everything thread, got it

fieldofsheep

So we have:

• Obsolete fibre optic technology
  Similar to copper wire, we'll see continuous improvements in technology to maintain bandwidth increases, especially in the core network.
• Stupid Eircodes
  Integrated with Google Maps which can be used in offline mode.  Gives a unique property reference for every property in the country, negating the need for house numbers in rural areas.  Even in urban areas, when I lived in Dublin 15 my address was Ongar, Phibblestown, Clonsilla or Clonee depending on the provider I was dealing with.  Eircodes should be issued in a more timely manner however, especially with new builds etc.
• Dozy SIRO
• Misleading advertising
  Agree with you on this regarding the final connection to the house - VDSL is not fibre.  However, these products have to be marketed in some way - or should they be labelled VDSL, GPON, DOCSIS etc?
• Shambolic one-off housing
  Again I would agree with you, but to use that dreaded phrase, 'We are we are', and we have to plan our broadband infrastructure accordingly.
• Multiple parallel infrastructure
  OpenEir rural FTTH is a wholesale product - I'm currently buying it through Vodafone, but there are a number of providers I could use.  The national broadband plan will also be a wholesale network.  SIRO is a predominantly urban product (also available wholesale), that competes with VDSL and Virgin Media.  It's only really in urban areas that we'll see parallel infrastructure competing - but surely competition is a good thing where it's financially viable to do so?

oscarBravo

Impetus wrote: »

It doesn't shock me at all Osca. Nobody knows everything. But what has that got to do with the essence of my posting please?

The essence of your posting is confident proclamations of fact on subjects about which you're under-informed.

You have strongly held views, and are untroubled by trivial questions of evidence for those views.

You have personal anecdotes, which you confidently extrapolate to generalisations of fact.

In short, you're rarely completely wrong in any of the things you lecture us about, but you're rarely anything like as right as you believe you are.

air

KildareP wrote: »

The vast majority of those towers get their backhaul fed by fibre - the three mobile operators here are all bringing fibre as far out to the radio access network as possible, a trend reflected globally.

Not by a long shot yet for any of the 3 Irish mobile operators.
Take a look at any tower and you will almost certainly see one or more circular microwave link dishes - because it doesn't have fibre backhaul.

Impetus

fieldofsheep wrote: »

So we have:

• Obsolete fibre optic technology
  Similar to copper wire, we'll see continuous improvements in technology to maintain bandwidth increases, especially in the core network.
• Stupid Eircodes
  Integrated with Google Maps which can be used in offline mode. Gives a unique property reference for every property in the country, negating the need for house numbers in rural areas. Even in urban areas, when I lived in Dublin 15 my address was Ongar, Phibblestown, Clonsilla or Clonee depending on the provider I was dealing with. Eircodes should be issued in a more timely manner however, especially with new builds etc.
• Dozy SIRO
• Misleading advertising
  Agree with you on this regarding the final connection to the house - VDSL is not fibre. However, these products have to be marketed in some way - or should they be labelled VDSL, GPON, DOCSIS etc?
• Shambolic one-off housing
  Again I would agree with you, but to use that dreaded phrase, 'We are we are', and we have to plan our broadband infrastructure accordingly.
• Multiple parallel infrastructure
  OpenEir rural FTTH is a wholesale product - I'm currently buying it through Vodafone, but there are a number of providers I could use. The national broadband plan will also be a wholesale network. SIRO is a predominantly urban product (also available wholesale), that competes with VDSL and Virgin Media. It's only really in urban areas that we'll see parallel infrastructure competing - but surely competition is a good thing where it's financially viable to do so?

Clearly Mr Sheep is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. A telco industry wolf, or so it smells to me.

Eg ‘Similar to copper wire, we'll see continuous improvements in technology to maintain bandwidth increases, especially in the core network.’

I ask myself is this the perspective from which a dissatisfied with the quality of service internet user would speak? Or does this guy/girl work for Eir or one of their co-conspirators in the industry?

Google maps can be stored – subject to phone space and time limitations – but I think the eircode lookup requires one to be online to perform a database look-up.. When one downloads a map for an area, it is just the map….. The Irish postcode system is the largest data hog of all postcodes.

Yes dozy Siro – no evidence to the contrary from the industry ‘pokesperson’

If Eir was honest it would say, sorry we have no fiber to offer you, but how would you like a *DSL variant (depends on point of delivery) which in your case would provide up to 30 Mbits/sec – which could be 400 kbits/sec in reality or worse… But be honest. Eir does not use DOCSIS - please stop trying to take people down that rabbit hole.

I’m struggling with a youtube video with 360 Mbits/sec down in a secondary home.. And Eir offers 30 Mbits/sec as an alternative. Who do you think you are kidding?

The 'We are we are' does not make sense to me.

‘we have to plan our broadband infrastructure accordingly.’.. On who’s behalf are you speaking here please?

(drivel cut) It's only really in urban areas that we'll see parallel infrastructure competing - but surely competition is a good thing where it's financially viable to do so?


There is no problem providing competition in urban or rural areas where there is a single plumbing system shared (ie open fibre, which can be used by every provider). It is the only realistic way to make up for housing litter that Ireland suffers (one-off housing).


Competition is good – over the same shared truck-roll, street digging exercise, line on a pole etc. Same SIM card system as I mentioned above.. Or do you want to inflict this third world chaos on the place? (please see pic)


https://www.google.com/search?q=power+cables+in+india&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjes7K4_5vkAhXNUBUIHcBuBgsQ_AUIESgB&biw=2344&bih=1241#imgrc=8-ND5g-lUKPuAM:

Your boss – Xavier Neil, has installed GB internet in France and 10 GB/s internet (Salt) in Switzerland. And he seems incapable of offering better than 30 or so Mbits/sec in Ireland. Perhaps he has woken up to see that Eir is the unmanageable company that it is. Largely living like Telecom Eireann and its predecessor Dept of P&T. etc. Back in the day, P&T was a fraud on the public. There was a 40% price increase in one year on call charges during Connor Cruise O’Brien’s watch. Nothing has changed really. Other than Eir has lost market share to mostly half baked competitors. Who take advantage of the closed nature of the market to foist rubbish offers to potential customers.

Impetus

air wrote: »

Not by a long shot yet for any of the 3 Irish mobile operators.
Take a look at any tower and you will almost certainly see one or more circular microwave link dishes - because it doesn't have fibre backhaul.

Absolutely. In Three's case, they date back to Digifone days when there were no 'smartphones' and a tower could live off an E1 (ie 2 Mbits/sec)



The mobile networks badly need serious fiber grid connections to their bases, and this demand will multiply 10x due to 5G.

Cuddlesworth

Your like the flat earther of the tech world, this is impressive. Like the other poster said, well written posts with pseudo science and half baked ideas.

Johnboy1951

Maybe I am having an 'off day' (or not), but I find no reason to disagree with the main import of the OP, as I read it.

Yes, consumers would be better served if all the infrastructure (e.g. fibre) was in public ownership, with lots of competition from those who wished to provide a service over that infrastructure.
It is a waste of resources and costly on the consumer, to have competing infrastructure side-by-side, going to the same locations.

Unfortunately, there is nothing at all we, or the gov, can do about this now.
We are where we are.
The family silver was sold off never to be recovered.
All because of political decisions, strongly influenced IMO, by those who had lining their own pockets in mind.

We learned no lessons, nor did our politicians change either.
We have an eircode system which is very costly for businesses to use, hence putting the costs on the consumer. It is inconvenient for individuals to use, especially when compared to the proposed alternative.

Yet at the same time as that decision was being made there was a proposal on the table to use an open, and free of cost to use, alternative, which would not only pinpoint each premises, but also any particular spot needing to be identified, whether in the middle of a field or off our coast. That would be a huge help to such as search and rescue, marking historical finds etc. etc.
http://www.openpostcode.org/

Political influence determining the course we took! Why must someone make money from an eircode system? Maybe those politicians will tell you.

Again, unfortunately, without political will to do things for the benefit of the populace as a whole, we are in a dirty hole we have no hope of getting out of.

John mac

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yet at the same time as that decision was being made there was a proposal on the table to use an open, and free of cost to use, alternative, which would not only pinpoint each premises, but also any particular spot needing to be identified, whether in the middle of a field or off our coast. That would be a huge help to such as search and rescue, marking historical finds etc. etc.
http://www.openpostcode.org/

what3words also pinpoints to 3m blocks (worldwide)

TheChizler

John mac wrote: »

what3words also pinpoints to 3m blocks (worldwide)

A geocode doesn't perform the same function as a postcode.