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RIP David Koch

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    #122
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Why is that ironic? The Kochs are libertarians, who tend to share positions with the left on many issues—including immigration.

    Many of those who hate Soros here, hate him for his position on migration, while defending Koch.

    Many who like Soros on migration, hate Koch.

    Koch, a reprehensible man, in views and actions was at least consistent in view and action, as much as anyone can be.

    He was for migration because he saw it as a decisive tool of the free market in creating demand and killing workers rights and bargaining power, killing regulation etc.

    He wasn't going to pretend it was solidarity or Internationalism or pro worker etc. He looked at its effects and liked it for that.


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    #123
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The so called "Libertarians" in the US are only interested in the exploitation of others for their own gain. They're right wing anarcho capitalists.

    They may "share" some basic ideas that the left cling to, but only ostensibly.

    Their motives are very different.

    The outcomes are the same though. That is all they are interested in.

    Motivations are irrelevant, they are as happy to see the Democrats implement it, as any other, no matter how they sell it.


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    #124
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Danzy wrote: »
    He was for migration because he saw it as a decisive tool of the free market in creating demand and killing workers rights and bargaining power, killing regulation etc.

    The Kochs have been especially influential in lobbying for the rights of so-called Dreamers, young people who were brought illegally to the US by their parents and have lived their lives there -- albeit without citizenship rights.

    You're saying they're taking this stance so as to somehow kill workers' rights?


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    #125
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Danzy wrote: »
    So most humans have a position on migration that is far to the right economically of most of the US Republican Party or US Libertarian party?

    Hard to believe.

    Putting children in cages, having children stand in hearings on their status, dawn raids on families. You said 'opening up immigration', that's pretty vague.
    Most humans would disagree with the methods and the wall regardless of their immigration stance.


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    #126
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    The Kochs have been especially influential in lobbying for the rights of so-called Dreamers, young people who were brought illegally to the US by their parents and have lived their lives there -- albeit without citizenship rights.

    You're saying they're taking this stance so as to somehow kill workers' rights?

    They are consistently Libertarian.

    It fits on with their beliefs.


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    #127
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    They inherited a company worth $21 million and built it up into an enterprise worth over $100 billion today.

    Sound like fine humanitarians.


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    #128
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Danzy wrote: »
    The outcomes are the same though.

    They're not.
    Danzy wrote: »
    Motivations are irrelevant.

    They're not.
    Danzy wrote: »
    they are as happy to see the Democrats implement it

    The Democrats aren't "the left".

    ;)


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    #129
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Danzy wrote: »
    They are consistently Libertarian.

    It fits on with their beliefs.

    Exactly. The libertarian stance on immigration would be that if someone wants to come to a country, live there peacefully, and contribute socially and economically, it's irrational and immoral of a government to build a huge wall in an effort to prevent that from happening.

    It's especially ridiculous to tell people who have lived in the country since they were children to "go back to where you came from" when they have known no other life anywhere else.


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    #130
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Putting children in cages, having children stand in hearings on their status, dawn raids on families. You said 'opening up immigration', that's pretty vague.
    Most humans would disagree with the methods and the wall regardless of their immigration stance.

    A third of Americans disagree with ICE, so in the most free market loving society in the World, a third is all you can manage, your in trouble.

    As the Reagan years and the era they defined recede, that third will shrink further.


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    #131
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Ireland is a country whose president practically wept upon hearing the news of Fidel Castro's death, expressing his "great sadness" and hailing the late dictator as a "giant among global leaders." The Lord Mayor of Dublin opened a book of condolence at the Mansion House to allow Dubliners to "pay their respects."

    Say what you like about the Kochs, but they haven't executed thousands of their political opponents by firing squad and driven their country into unspeakable poverty. If had only wreaked murderous havoc in the service of left-wing ideology, President Higgins would be leading the populace in grief.
    Yea I expect the crux of your post here to be David's epitaph:
    "At keast I wasn't a Communist!"


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    #132
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Danzy wrote: »
    A third of Americans disagree with ICE, so in the most free market loving society in the World, a third is all you can manage, your in trouble.

    As the Reagan years and the era they defined recede, that third will shrink further.

    What about the rise in the Hispanic and black demographic? The white conservative is on the decline.


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    #133
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Danzy wrote: »
    A third of Americans disagree with ICE

    Source?


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    #134
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    What about the rise in the Hispanic and black demographic? The white conservative is on the decline.

    Do you imagine they'll be more for the free market?

    They tend to be much more religious, more socially conservative, so maybe.

    They are the ones who take the biggest hit from imported Labour.

    The strongest demographic against current US immigration levels, remain the black community, by a massive margin.

    Ice will remain and grow unless the vote is restricted to rich whites.

    Not happening.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-seminara-trump-immigration-reform-african-americans-20180316-story.html?_amp=true

    https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Final_HHP_Jan2018-Refield_RegisteredVoters_XTab.pdf


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    #135
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Source?

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/half-americans-support-ice-raids-1449745%3famp=1


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    #136
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I don't have any strong feelings about this guy, but it is quite sad to see so many people delighting in the death of a man.


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    #137
    satguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭satguy


    This guy will be badly missed,, Just think of all the good he did.

    Sure he must have given over half of one percent of his wealth away to certain kind of charities / think thanks / senators, and so on.

    See below to see how badly normal joe soaps reacted to his death.



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    #138
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Danzy wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/half-americans-support-ice-raids-1449745%3famp=1

    Your source doesn't say that "a third of Americans disagree with ICE." It says that 35 percent of Americans oppose ICE raiding homes of undocumented immigrants with outstanding court orders to be deported.


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    #139
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,844 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Your source doesn't say that "a third of Americans disagree with ICE." It says that 35 percent of Americans oppose ICE raiding homes of undocumented immigrants with outstanding court orders to be deported.

    It shows that opposition to ICE is a small group.


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    #140
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Danzy wrote: »
    It shows that opposition to ICE is a small group.

    Incorrect. The link you provided specifically asked people about their views on raiding the homes of undocumented immigrants with outstanding court orders for deportation. Not about their views on ICE as an organization.

    A poll taken by the Pew Research Center last year shows that only 44 percent of Americans view ICE favorably, while 47 percent view it unfavorably.


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    #141
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Exactly. The libertarian stance on immigration would be that if someone wants to come to a country, live there peacefully, and contribute socially and economically, it's irrational and immoral of a government to build a huge wall in an effort to prevent that from happening.

    It's especially ridiculous to tell people who have lived in the country since they were children to "go back to where you came from" when they have known no other life anywhere else.

    It’s a bit odd then that a libertarian belief system is also supposedly a far left ideology.

    The problem with seeing humans as just as units of production or consumption is that they aren’t just that.


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    #142
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    recedite wrote: »
    I don't have any strong feelings about this guy, but it is quite sad to see so many people delighting in the death of a man.

    He's at peace now. In hell.


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    #143
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    It’s a bit odd then that a libertarian belief system is also supposedly a far left ideology.

    Leftists and conservatives are both advocates of powerful government -- they just differ in where and how they want to see that power exercised.

    Broadly, leftists want less government control in the social sphere but more in the economic sphere. Conservatives want less government control in the economic sphere, but more in the social sphere.

    Libertarians want a smaller state and less government control everywhere. There's no inconsistency in advocating for drug legalization, same-sex marriage, lower taxes, and less regulation of business. All of these stances involve a belief that the role of government should be smaller and individuals should have more freedom.


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    #144
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Leftists and conservatives are both advocates of powerful government -- they just differ in where and how they want to see that power exercised.

    Broadly, leftists want less government control in the social sphere but more in the economic sphere. Conservatives want less government control in the economic sphere, but more in the social sphere.

    Libertarians want a smaller state and less government control everywhere. There's no inconsistency in advocating for drug legalization, same-sex marriage, lower taxes, and less regulation of business. All of these stances involve a belief that the role of government should be smaller and individuals should have more freedom.

    Thanks for the remedial lesson on what libertarians think they think. I was really referring to immigration when I was referring to what the far left and the far right believe. And that’s a mistake for the left.

    Social libertarians don’t have to be economic libertarians, as you know.


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    #145
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    You don't become a billionaire be looking out for your neighbour.


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    #146
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Overheal wrote: »
    Koch was a dictator of a country? I’m lost as to how your post relates meaningfully.

    Anything to rant about Cuba!


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    #147
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Koch is to the left as Soros or Sutherland is to the right.

    We saw a similar outpouring of joy when Sutherland passed.

    We’ll see the same when Soros goes.

    Ridiculous carry on from adults.


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    #148
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Conservatives want less government control in the economic sphere.

    'Less government control'... one of those vague statements. You don't have an economy at all without 'government control'. The very basis of a capitalistic economy is robust defence of property rights and that requires a large state apparatus.

    It's no coincidence two of the world's greatest capitalistic empires, Britain then the US, also had the world's greatest militaries. Empire is the highest level of capitalism and empire requires fucking massive government with bells hanging off it.

    The largest employer in the world is the US department of Defence.


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    #149
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Leftists and conservatives are both advocates of powerful government -- they just differ in where and how they want to see that power exercised.

    Broadly, leftists want less government control in the social sphere but more in the economic sphere. Conservatives want less government control in the economic sphere, but more in the social sphere.

    Libertarians want a smaller state and less government control everywhere. There's no inconsistency in advocating for drug legalization, same-sex marriage, lower taxes, and less regulation of business. All of these stances involve a belief that the role of government should be smaller and individuals should have more freedom.

    Now you know that's not entirely true. Libertarian socialists and anarchists don't want a state at all. In fact end state communism is a stateless society.

    Which is why I broadly agree with libertarians sometimes but not others.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #150
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    It's quite plainly using the mechanics of the state to make money and wanting less of those mechanics that infringe on profits, which is a fine and dandy attitude for a private business, but not for a government. Private profits do not always equate to healthy society. There is often less trickle down the higher up you go.


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    #151
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    Now you know that's not entirely true. Libertarian socialists and anarchists don't want a state at all. In fact end state communism is a stateless society.

    Which is why I broadly agree with libertarians sometimes but not others.

    At least right wing libertarians are honest about what kind of society would exist in a stateless society.


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