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RIP David Koch

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    #152
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Only if you assume the economy has zero effect on society.


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    #153
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    At least right wing libertarians are honest about what kind of society would exist in a stateless society.

    And I’m not? I don’t get your point.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #154
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    And I’m not? I don’t get your point.

    Yes, you are not. That’s my point.


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    #155
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Yes, you are not. That’s my point.

    How am I not honest?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #156
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    How am I not honest?

    Your philosophy is dishonest.

    No libertarian society can be equal. It’s absurd. Equality needs to be enforced.


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    #157
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Your philosophy is dishonest.

    No libertarian society can be equal. It’s absurd. Equality needs to be enforced.

    Ah I see. I disagree. You can’t enforce equality, hierarchy is inherently anti equality.

    This doesn’t make me, or any libertarian socialist, dishonest though. At the worst it makes us naive. Believing that in the right conditions that people are inherently good isn’t dishonest.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #158
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Brian? wrote: »
    Believing that in the right conditions that people are inherently good isn’t dishonest.
    Being good is not the same as being equal though.
    Studies of caveman bones show that the weaker members of their society such as disabled and elderly often survived quite well.
    This tells us they were "good" but not necessarily equal.
    It just means that when food was plentiful, the stronger ones could afford to be charitable.


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    #159
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    There is no such thing as absolute equality.

    However, that doesn't mean we should abandon efforts to strive to bring about a more equitable equilibrium in society, as much as is possible.


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    #160
    up for anything
    Registered Users Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭up for anything


    NoteAgent wrote: »
    So putting food on all these peoples tables doesnt count for anything?

    Its awful what he did to politics but still

    Are you really that naive?


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    #161
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    recedite wrote: »
    Being good is not the same as being equal though.
    Studies of caveman bones show that the weaker members of their society such as disabled and elderly often survived quite well.
    This tells us they were "good" but not necessarily equal.
    It just means that when food was plentiful, the stronger ones could afford to be charitable.

    There will always be hierarchies or ability, I believe they are inherent and desirable. I believe a lack of institutional hierarchy will allow hierarchies of ability to flourish based on equality of opportunity.

    A hierarchical state is enforced with he threat of violence, it can’t be enforced without some implied or explicit threat. This is why I believe institutional hierarchies are inherently bad and we must find a way to eliminate them.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #162
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Tony EH wrote: »
    There is no such thing as absolute equality.

    However, that doesn't mean we should abandon efforts to strive to bring about a more equitable equilibrium in society, as much as is possible.

    Not to get too Jordan Peterson here, but we need to understand why type of equality is desirable. Equality of outcome isn’t, it disincentives hard work. Equality of opportunity is absolutely desirable.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #163
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Brian? wrote: »
    Ah I see. I disagree. You can’t enforce equality, hierarchy is inherently anti equality.

    This doesn’t make me, or any libertarian socialist, dishonest though. At the worst it makes us naive. Believing that in the right conditions that people are inherently good isn’t dishonest.

    What makes the philosophy dishonest is not just that it’s not feasible ever, but that you really don’t have to do anything about. You can frankly live your life in a capitalist society and think yourself a radical all the while supporting a pseudo radical philosophy which isn’t even organised and will never affect anything. You could declare yourself a libertarian socialist and be a multi millionaire because it’s no threat. Social democracy is a far greater threat than this kind of faux radicalism.


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    #164
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    What makes the philosophy dishonest is not just that it’s not feasible ever, but that you really don’t have to do anything about. You can frankly live your life in a capitalist society and think yourself a radical all the while supporting a pseudo radical philosophy which isn’t even organised and will never affect anything. You could declare yourself a libertarian socialist and be a multi millionaire because it’s no threat. Social democracy is a far greater threat than this kind of faux radicalism.

    Right. That’s the height of cynicism.

    It’s not a pseudo radical philosophy. It’s a radical philosophy that believes it can’t throw a switch and end up in a socialist utopia. Right now a libertarian socialist and a democratic socialists share the same short term goals, but the end state is different.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #165
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    Now you know that's not entirely true. Libertarian socialists and anarchists don't want a state at all. In fact end state communism is a stateless society.

    Which is why I broadly agree with libertarians sometimes but not others.

    You're mixing a lot of philosophies together here.

    Libertarians such as the Kochs don't want a stateless society. They are not anarchists or communists. They want a limited state that focuses on protecting people's lives, liberties, and property rights — not on establishing vast taxpayer-funded monopolies over roads, hospitals, schools, parks, universities, etc.

    The end goal of libertarianism is a state that performs a set of specific functions but that does not attempt to control, regulate, and tax everything under the sun.


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    #166
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    You're mixing a lot of philosophies together here.

    Libertarians such as the Kochs don't want a stateless society. They are not anarchists or communists. They want a limited state that focuses on protecting people's lives, liberties, and property rights — not on establishing vast taxpayer-funded monopolies over roads, hospitals, schools, parks, universities, etc.

    The end goal of libertarianism is a state that performs a set of specific functions but that does not attempt to control, regulate, and tax everything under the sun.

    I’m really not mixing anything. You are aware of libertarian socialism?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #167
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m really not mixing anything. You are aware of libertarian socialism?

    Yes, I'm aware of libertarian socialism ... but also aware that the Kochs are not libertarian socialists. They fall squarely into the free-market libertarian camp.


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    #168
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    Yes, I'm aware of libertarian socialism ... but also aware that the Kochs are not libertarian socialists. They fall squarely into the free-market libertarian camp.

    Exactly my point. You’re using the term “libertarian” far too liberally, if you’ll excuse the pun. There are plenty of anti authoritarians on the left and right.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #169
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    It's important to understand that left libertarianism is concerned with freedom from unjustified hierarchy and oppressive systems while the extreme-right version of 'libertarianism' is largely just a vehicle to deliver corporate anarchy and suppress collective action.


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    #170
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    Exactly my point. You’re using the term “libertarian” far too liberally, if you’ll excuse the pun. There are plenty of anti authoritarians on the left and right.

    I'm not disputing that there are anti-authoritarians on both the right and left -- but for most people, libertarians and socialists are polar opposites. Libertarian socialists do exist, of course, but the standard association with the word "libertarian" is with free-market types like the Kochs.


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    #171
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    It's important to understand that left libertarianism is concerned with freedom from unjustified hierarchy and oppressive systems while the extreme-right version of 'libertarianism' is largely just a vehicle to deliver corporate anarchy and suppress collective action.
    What if some people on your collective farm are not pulling their weight? You're going to need some form of coercion to get them working.
    Maybe a gulag or two, for the re-education of those who aren't quite "on message".

    And that's how the left wing hippie type anarchist becomes an authoritarian communist.


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    #172
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Angela Melodic Mullet wrote: »
    I'm not disputing that there are anti-authoritarians on both the right and left -- but for most people, libertarians and socialists are polar opposites. Libertarian socialists do exist, of course, but the standard association with the word "libertarian" is with free-market types like the Kochs.

    The standard association because it’s been pushed repeatedly by anarcho capitalists to make themselves sound like a great bunch of lads. Who doesn’t love liberty?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #173
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    recedite wrote: »
    What if some people on your collective farm are not pulling their weight? You're going to need some form of coercion to get them working.
    Maybe a gulag or two, for the re-education of those who aren't quite "on message".

    They don’t get an equal share of what’s produced.
    And that's how the left wing hippie type anarchist becomes an authoritarian communist.

    No, it’s easy enough to dodge that bullet.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #174
    ilkhanid
    Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    martingriff wrote: »
    it seems some here are giving them a free pass as if it was all Kosh doing.

    Correct. The Supreme Court justices in 'Citizens United V. F.E.C 2010' have unleashed more corruption on the USA than the Koch brothers ever could have.
    That said, they are one of the parties culpable for dragging the Republican party far to the extreme right in recent times. Trump may be hostile to them (not a total surprise:Trump is inconsistent and more selfish than resolutely ideological;The Koch's were zealots) but they still contributed to the climate that brought him to power.


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    #175
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    recedite wrote: »
    Whatifsomepeopleonyourcollectivefarmarenotpullingtheirweight?You'regoingtoneedsomeformofcoerciontogetthemworking.Maybeagulagortwo,forthere-educationofthosewhoaren'tquite"onmessageAndthat'showtheleftwinghippietypeanarchist
    becomesanauthoritariancommunist.

    489756.png


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    #176
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Brian? wrote: »
    The standard association because it’s been pushed repeatedly by anarcho capitalists to make themselves sound like a great bunch of lads. Who doesn’t love liberty?

    Anarcho-capitalists aren't the same as libertarians, though. :confused:


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    #177
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Brian? wrote: »
    They don’t get an equal share of what’s produced.
    Well then it sounds like your "collective action" has fallen apart and a "hierarchy" has been established.
    It all seems a bit "right wing".


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    #178
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,433 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    recedite wrote: »
    Well then it sounds like your "collective action" has fallen apart and a "hierarchy" has been established.
    It all seems a bit "right wing".

    It’s sounds like you are being facetious for the sake of it.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #179
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Brian? wrote: »
    They don’t get an equal share of what’s produced.

    The union is not going to like that. You'll have industrial action or a fairly obvious case of discrimination. :D


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