England vs Ireland WC warm up

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

daheff wrote: »

seems to me we peak as a team a year before a world cup year.... did this under kidney & eddie... and looks like history is repeating under Joe.

This isn't true. I've seen it so often but...

We were good in 06 but even better in 07.
We were pretty mediocre in 2010 and the same in 2011.
We won the 6n in 2014 and did so again in 2015.

I don't know why we seem to lose our sh*t when it comes to the RWC but peaking too soon isn't it

What's frustrating is that it isn't the same thing each time. We seem to find different ways of screwing ourselves each time. That's some achievement.

Mangofrozo

It's been downhill ever since Joe Schmidt announced his impending retirement and the victory over New Zealand probably didn't help. We'd be better off if we never beat New Zealand. The will to win is gone, Ireland might well struggle to qualify from the group stages.

Faugheen

Burkie1203 wrote: »

A line out option, a genuine breakdown threat. He is also very capable with ball in hand.
If we keep trying and failing at the same things the RWC will get ugly.

Yeah but Beirne was equally invisible against Wales and in a game against them or England, when there’s no breakdown threat, he’s just as ineffective.

An option like Conan at 8 or Ruddock/Henderson at 6 is what’s needed.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Mangofrozo wrote: »

We'd be better off if we never beat New Zealand. The will to win is gone,

Just lol

Squidgy Black

Mangofrozo wrote: »

It's been downhill ever since Joe Schmidt announced his impending retirement and the victory over New Zealand probably didn't help. We'd be better off if we never beat New Zealand. The will to win is gone, Ireland might well struggle to qualify from the group stages.

Stuff like this always cracks me up, and I suppose it sums up Irish sporting mentality to a tee.

I struggle to believe that people genuinely think Ireland beat the All Blacks and said "ah you know what, couldn't be arsed to win anymore" and will lose to Tier 2 Nations all of a sudden in the group stages.

Former Former

molloyjh wrote: »

What's frustrating is that it isn't the same thing each time. We seem to find different ways of screwing ourselves each time. That's some achievement.

I dunno, that gives me some hope that it's not inherent in our DNA and can therefore be fixed.

2003: emptied the tank against Argentina and Oz
2007: psychological meltdown before a ball was kicked
2011: Kidney lost his nerve
2015: injuries on a biblical scale

2019: glorious redemption, obviously

Burkie1203

Faugheen wrote: »

Yeah but Beirne was equally invisible against Wales and in a game against them or England, when there’s no breakdown threat, he’s just as ineffective.

An option like Conan at 8 or Ruddock/Henderson at 6 is what’s needed.

Beirne v wales I get but he was a 2nd row. I'd give him a go at 6

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Stuff like this always cracks me up, and I suppose it sums up Irish sporting mentality to a tee.

I struggle to believe that people genuinely think Ireland beat the All Blacks and said "ah you know what, couldn't be arsed to win anymore" and will lose to Tier 2 Nations all of a sudden in the group stages.

You don't understand. Since we beat the ABs the will to win is gone.

clsmooth

clsmooth wrote: »

How do we overcome the blitz defence? Our struggles to dominate up front coupled with a fast defensive line speed has been a feature of the calendar year

We showed how to deal with it today when Kearney carried wide and fast and we found space. You have to move the ball quickly and you need to create running and decoy options to force the defence to second guess itself (see Stockdale). Leinster and Ireland are pretty good at doing this, but today we were offering up nothing off first phase ball and England got comfortable quite quickly.

We had some nice kicks earlier on but our lineout was such an absolute shambles that we failed to capitalise.

By the time the scoreboard started to tick in England's favour we looked like we'd already exhausted our options. It's one of the few things giving me hope there is more to come.

England just had to play to their strengths. They relied on big carrying options off first phase, they didn't pass a lot between breakdowns and they didn't bother trying to secure their ball - they were so dominant in contact they didn't have to.

Like I said in another post - Ireland need to box smarter but we had nothing in the box of tricks today. An in form Sean O'Brien would have made a difference, his line speed and strength in contact would have saved us some blushes albeit VDF at least defensively did a decent shift. I haven't had a chance to go through the stats but I'd say VDF must have been close to top tackler, never threw in the towel - but he doesn't give us go forward like SOB.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Replace POM with Stander and give him a kick up the hole. Conan to 8.

We are missing Leavy big time.

BarryD2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Murray needs to be dropped
I thought Byrne done ok but sexton to comeback

Conor doesn't seem to have come back as good after his injury break?

Don't think Johnny had that great a six nations either? Looked to be very frustrated at times.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Replace POM with Stander and give him a kick up the hole. Conan to 8.

We are missing Leavy big time.

Agreed on Leavy.

Thought Henderson was good today - I'd like to see a forward pack with Healy, Furlong, Scannell, Ryan, Toner, Henderson (6), VDF, Stander.

Not fully sold on Conan at international level yet, Stander isn't as impactful as he's been previously but I thought he went well enough defensively today.

Kermit.de.frog

Ireland are always better going in to a tournament no matter the sport with no expectations tbh.

clsmooth

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed on Leavy.

Thought Henderson was good today - I'd like to see a forward pack with Healy, Furlong, Scannell, Ryan, Toner, Henderson (6), VDF, Stander.

Not fully sold on Conan at international level yet, Stander isn't as impactful as he's been previously but I thought he went well enough defensively today.

Think theres something in this. Keeps our line out strong and gives us a bit more bulk/power. Henderson’s a strange one, he’s been involved for about 6 years and still hasn’t nailed down a place in the pack despite having huge potential. Was expected to take over POCs place but regularly found himself behind Donancha Ryan and then James Ryan. Great impact off the bench but think we need some more power since we lost SOB (pre 2018 version), Leavy and Heaslip from the pack.

snotboogie

Former Former wrote: »

I dunno, that gives me some hope that it's not inherent in our DNA and can therefore be fixed.

2003: emptied the tank against Argentina and Oz
2007: psychological meltdown before a ball was kicked
2011: Kidney lost his nerve
2015: injuries on a biblical scale

2019: glorious redemption, obviously

The rewriting of history to suit the schmidt narrative is amazing, 2011 was our best ever world cup: we beat a very good Australia side and lost to a Welsh team who would have made the final were in not for a red card against France. In 2015 we beat an extremely limited French side (who lost by 50 points in the 1/4 final) and crippled ourselves doing it by playing into their hands with a ridiculously attritional approach and then got absolutely smashed by an average Argentine team who limped out in the semis.

clsmooth

2011 where Kidney decided to start ROG and a rookie Conor Murray in the QF after we had beaten Australia with Reddan and Sexton as ROG’s kicking was more consistent. And then decided to turn though every shot at goal vs Wales and kick to corner each time with no success. Even more ridiculous in hindsight.

Burkie1203

snotboogie wrote: »

The rewriting of history to suit the schmidt narrative is amazing, 2011 was our best ever world cup: we beat a very good Australia side and lost to a Welsh team who would have made the final were in not for a red card against France. In 2015 we beat an extremely limited French side (who lost by 50 points in the 1/4 final) and crippled ourselves doing it by playing into their hands with a ridiculously attritional approach and then got absolutely smashed by an average Argentine team who limped out in the semis.

Our best world cup will be winning a QF. Beyond that it doesn't matter

NeonWolf

Cowardly performance .




Manshamed

Former Former

snotboogie wrote: »

The rewriting of history to suit the schmidt narrative is amazing, 2011 was our best ever world cup: we beat a very good Australia side and lost to a Welsh team who would have made the final were in not for a red card against France.

Yes, we beat a very good Australia side... And then Kidney dropped Reddan and Sexton and reduced our tactics to kicking to the corners and giving it to Seanie. He bottled it completely.

snotboogie wrote: »

In 2015 we beat an extremely limited French side (who lost by 50 points in the 1/4 final) and crippled ourselves doing it by playing into their hands with a ridiculously attritional approach and then got absolutely smashed by an average Argentine team who limped out in the semis.

Not sure about this. The people who got injured against France were Sexton, POC and POM. Sexton strained his groin kicking the ball, POC was protecting a ruck that fell on him and POM twisted his knee when his studs got caught in the grass. Payne had been injured in an earlier match and Bowe was stretchered off against Argentina. Blaming Schmidt for that is slightly mental, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't know the above.

molloyjh

NeonWolf wrote: »

Cowardly performance .




Manshamed

But at least you're having your fun. And sure what's better than acting the dick and thinking its great?

willit

clsmooth wrote: »

2011 where Kidney decided to start ROG and a rookie Conor Murray in the QF after we had beaten Australia with Reddan and Sexton as ROG’s kicking was more consistent. And then decided to turn though every shot at goal vs Wales and kick to corner each time with no success. Even more ridiculous in hindsight.

Funnily enough, what grates with me still about that loss to Wales is the try that resulted from a quickly taken lineout, Mike Phillip's I think, with the wrong ball which, as we know, is not permitted by the letter of the law but the ref/linesman/tmo completely ignored and the try stood. Obviously, nobody can say Ireland would have won if not for that, but that was the winning score.
Not saying Kidney nailed the tactics, but it was the unfairly awarded try that did for us in that game.

Burkie1203

willit wrote: »

Funnily enough, what grates with me still about that loss to Wales is the try that resulted from a quickly taken lineout, Mike Phillip's I think, with the wrong ball which, as we know, is not permitted by the letter of the law but the ref/linesman/tmo completely ignored and the try stood. Obviously, nobody can say Ireland would have won if not for that, but that was the winning score.
Not saying Kidney nailed the tactics, but it was the unfairly awarded try that did for us in that game.

That wasn't in the RWC

Portsalon

willit wrote: »

Funnily enough, what grates with me still about that loss to Wales is the try that resulted from a quickly taken lineout, Mike Phillip's I think, with the wrong ball which, as we know, is not permitted by the letter of the law but the ref/linesman/tmo completely ignored and the try stood. Obviously, nobody can say Ireland would have won if not for that, but that was the winning score.
Not saying Kidney nailed the tactics, but it was the unfairly awarded try that did for us in that game.

As Burkie has written, that wasn't in the RWC.

And the ref didn't ignore it, he asked the Touch Judge (Peter Allen ? from Scotland) who confirmed (wrongly) that the same ball had been used, so the try stood.

JJayoo

molloyjh wrote: »

NeonWolf wrote: »

Cowardly performance .




Manshamed

But at least you're having your fun. And sure what's better than acting the dick and thinking its great?

You ok hun? Did an opinion on the internet hurt your feelings?

Shefwedfan

BarryD2 wrote: »

Conor doesn't seem to have come back as good after his injury break?

Don't think Johnny had that great a six nations either? Looked to be very frustrated at times.

Sexton prior toand after 6 nations had excellent performances for Leinster

Murray hasn’t played well at any level since injury

Tim Robbins

In Sport you rarely stay the same. You are either getting better or worse. Since the end of 2018 Ireland have been unquestionably being getting worse. We now need to rethink our game plan. Some changes:

1. Joey goes to 15. We use two play makers a 10 and 15. Who play left / right or switch into 10 slot during phase play.
2. Beirne goes to 6. POM is not on form. Toner, Ryan two best locks overall.
3. Stander out. Conan in.
4. POM or Stander bench.
5. Hate to say this but Murray has lost his form. Marmion in.
6. Earls is better than Larmour.
7. Stockdale stays.

nc6000

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In Sport you rarely stay the same. You are either getting better or worse. Since the end of 2018 Ireland have been unquestionably being getting worse. We now need to rethink our game plan. Some changes:

1. Joey goes to 15. We use two play makers a 10 and 15. Who play left / right or switch into 10 slot during phase play.
2. Beirne goes to 6. POM is not on form. Toner, Ryan two best locks overall.
3. Stander out. Conan in.
4. POM or Stander bench.
5. Hate to say this but Murray has lost his form. Marmion in.
6. Earls is better than Larmour.
7. Stockdale stays.

How is 7 a change?

The Lost Sheep

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In Sport you rarely stay the same. You are either getting better or worse. Since the end of 2018 Ireland have been unquestionably being getting worse. We now need to rethink our game plan. Some changes:

1. Joey goes to 15. We use two play makers a 10 and 15. Who play left / right or switch into 10 slot during phase play.
2. Beirne goes to 6. POM is not on form. Toner, Ryan two best locks overall.
3. Stander out. Conan in.
4. POM or Stander bench.
5. Hate to say this but Murray has lost his form. Marmion in.
6. Earls is better than Larmour.
7. Stockdale stays.

But you cant completely overhaul so much in a few short weeks and expect things to be far better.
When have we ever used two play makers like that?
Beirne hasnt been playing much 6 recently so why would he be the answer in the back row?
I dont think anyone thought Larmour was better than Earls

declanflynn

Portsalon wrote: »

yerrahbah wrote: »

Bring me back to 2017 when Peter O'Mahony was Lions captain for the first test against New Zealand

He was replaced in the 50th minute and didn't even make the squad for either of the next two tests. Gatland knows a waster when he sees one.

nice

Burkie1203

Prime example of head buried in sand on this thread


https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1165286476223041537?s=19

Portsalon

declanflynn wrote: »

nice

Ruthless. But it worked.

KaneToad

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In Sport you rarely stay the same. You are either getting better or worse. Since the end of 2018 Ireland have been unquestionably being getting worse. We now need to rethink our game plan. Some changes:

1. Joey goes to 15. We use two play makers a 10 and 15. Who play left / right or switch into 10 slot during phase play.
2. Beirne goes to 6. POM is not on form. Toner, Ryan two best locks overall.
3. Stander out. Conan in.
4. POM or Stander bench.
5. Hate to say this but Murray has lost his form. Marmion in.
6. Earls is better than Larmour.
7. Stockdale stays.

Am in agreement with much of the above.

Mangofrozo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Stuff like this always cracks me up, and I suppose it sums up Irish sporting mentality to a tee.

I struggle to believe that people genuinely think Ireland beat the All Blacks and said "ah you know what, couldn't be arsed to win anymore" and will lose to Tier 2 Nations all of a sudden in the group stages.

It happens all the time in sport, people achieve something great, or think they have, and subconsciously they loss their edge. Players were strolling around today.

declanflynn

Mangofrozo wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Stuff like this always cracks me up, and I suppose it sums up Irish sporting mentality to a tee.

I struggle to believe that people genuinely think Ireland beat the All Blacks and said "ah you know what, couldn't be arsed to win anymore" and will lose to Tier 2 Nations all of a sudden in the group stages.

It happens all the time in sport, people achieve something great, or think they have, and subconsciously they loss their edge. Players were strolling around today.

Don't worry lads it's all part of a master plan, not to give anything away about our plan for Japan, too many born winners in the set up (from Joe and Andy all the way down) for it to be going pare shaped

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

Mangofrozo wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Stuff like this always cracks me up, and I suppose it sums up Irish sporting mentality to a tee.

I struggle to believe that people genuinely think Ireland beat the All Blacks and said "ah you know what, couldn't be arsed to win anymore" and will lose to Tier 2 Nations all of a sudden in the group stages.

It happens all the time in sport, people achieve something great, or think they have, and subconsciously they loss their edge. Players were strolling around today.

Don't worry lads it's all part of a master plan, not to give anything away about our plan for Japan, too many born winners in the set up (from Joe and Andy all the way down) for it to be going pare shaped

Pear

Snow Garden

Any word on Murray or Healy injuries?

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

Any word on Murray or Healy injuries?

Think Joe said Murray would be ok and Healy seemed fine but would have to see.

shootermacg

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Prime example of head buried in sand on this thread


https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1165286476223041537?s=19

He's not wrong though. If it was a few players, fair enough, but if the entire team isn't firing then it's generally a match fitness issue. It may be that our preparation hasn't been as intensive as England or Wales AT THIS STAGE.

But at the same time, it might be that we are targeting a different date to England/Wales. People crying out for changes means that you will be replacing more match-fit people with less match-fit players.

AbusesToilets

shootermacg wrote: »

He's not wrong though. If it was a few players, fair enough, but if the entire team isn't firing then it's generally a match fitness issue. It may be that our preparation hasn't been as intensive as England or Wales AT THIS STAGE.

But at the same time, it might be that we are targeting a different date to England/Wales. People crying out for changes means that you will be replacing more match-fit people with less match-fit players.

Surely they've had as much preparation as they did before the England game in the 6Ns, with a worse result.

We're constantly told how training camps are so intense and the real test of a players suitability for the team etc etc How long of a training camp do they need before they don't play like drains.

I'm a Patriots fan, so I'm not unfamiliar with a team struggling to gel at the start of a season and losing games, but this was an arse kicking that goes well beyond rustiness.

shootermacg

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Prime example of head buried in sand on this thread


https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1165286476223041537?s=19

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Surely they've had as much preparation as they did before the England game in the 6Ns, with a worse result.

We're constantly told how training camps are so intense and the real test of a players suitability for the team etc etc How long of a training camp do they need before they don't play like drains.

I'm a Patriots fan, so I'm not unfamiliar with a team struggling to gel at the start of a season and losing games, but this was an arse kicking that goes well beyond rustiness.

Yes it was indeed an arse kicking. Let me bring you back to when I was a young lad in London working on a building site at the age of 18.

I was only 12 stone and game. On my first day of work they had us basically running a wheelbarrow uphill about 150 metres unloading concrete and earth into a huge skip. When you returned there was already another wheelbarrow waiting for you and off you went again. Other than a 30 minute lunch-break this was pretty much 8 hours straight.

At the end of day one, my hands were covered in blisters, my muscles were pretty much ****ed and even in the 30 minutes rest, I was unable to eat.
This continued for several weeks.

Finally there came a time where this wasn't even a challenge and I would happily run up five stories with a sheet of plasterboard all day.

Rugby is harder than that....a lot harder.

Finally I became a software developer and I never had to do anything physical ever again and, like many of my peers, I started talk about lack of effort in our rugby stars and if they were dialing it in etc etc.

duskyjoe

In conclusion a shambolic embarrassing display. If we are given the run around next by Wales and then by Scotland we are truly fughed. The Irish Times player rating is scathing ....

NeonWolf

molloyjh wrote: »

But at least you're having your fun. And sure what's better than acting the dick and thinking its great?

4 more years boys

joseywhales

If that is the result of intense training, then they should absolutely rest them until the games.

ClanofLams

Some amount of lads getting their jollies having a cut at the Irish team, fair play to ye lads, stick the knife in now, you might not get the chance later.

Terrible performance 1-23 pretty much. Wouldn’t worry too much as an Irish fan, the situation remains the same, somehow guys coming to the end of their career like Best, Toner, Sexton, Kearney, etc need to peak for four-six weeks.

If they do, anything can happen, if they don’t we are gone in quarter finals. Que sera sera and all that.

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton prior toand after 6 nations had excellent performances for Leinster

Murray hasn’t played well at any level since injury

I’m as happy as most to get on the positive train but I really don’t know when Sexton had ‘excellent’ performances for Leinster last season, he never came near that standard by his usual high marks.

Neither him nor Murray reached that level last season, which is particularly concerning when Schmidt is basically entirely unwilling to sub either.

munsterlegend

ClanofLams wrote: »

Some amount of lads getting their jollies having a cut at the Irish team, fair play to ye lads, stick the knife in now, you might not get the chance later.

Terrible performance 1-23 pretty much. Wouldn’t worry too much as an Irish fan, the situation remains the same, somehow guys coming to the end of their career like Best, Toner, Sexton, Kearney, etc need to peak for four-six weeks.

If they do, anything can happen, if they don’t we are gone in quarter finals. Que sera sera and all that.

The momentum all seems to be going the other way though. A lot of players seemingly in awful form and confidence is draining from the squad. Lets see how next 2 games go as any team can have a bad day at the office but looks very like 2007 again.

ClanofLams

munsterlegend wrote: »

The momentum all seems to be going the other way though. A lot of players seemingly in awful form and confidence is draining from the squad. Lets see how next 2 games go as any team can have a bad day at the office but looks very like 2007 again.

Yep, it certainly doesn’t look good.

Would be hopeful the likes of Sexton are going to pull out big performances at their final World Cup. But it’s definitely taking a lot on faith.

Just have to have a laugh at the lads who post once a year in the rugby forum when the Irish team is going bad. Whatever get people off I suppose.

Obviously don’t mean you just to be clear.

Abel Ruiz

I really dislike gavin cummiskey.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

I’m as happy as most to get on the positive train but I really don’t know when Sexton had ‘excellent’ performances for Leinster last season, he never came near that standard by his usual high marks.

Neither him nor Murray reached that level last season, which is particularly concerning when Schmidt is basically entirely unwilling to sub either.

You must not watch Leinster, right up to the match in Thomond Sexton was on fire. He was the best 10 in World

The he didn’t play till ireland match’s

Not sure if he got game after 6 nations and they played the semi v Toulouse when he was incredible and was back to good form. Again the 20 odd mins against Munster in pro 14 semi he was good

The final he played ok but he clearly was knocked early on and made some mistakes

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

I’m as happy as most to get on the positive train but I really don’t know when Sexton had ‘excellent’ performances for Leinster last season, he never came near that standard by his usual high marks.

Neither him nor Murray reached that level last season, which is particularly concerning when Schmidt is basically entirely unwilling to sub either.

You must not watch Leinster, right up to the match in Thomond Sexton was on fire. He was the best 10 in World

The he didn’t play till ireland match’s

Not sure if he got game after 6 nations and they played the semi v Toulouse when he was incredible and was back to good form. Again the 20 odd mins against Munster in pro 14 semi he was good

The final he played ok but he clearly was knocked early on and made some mistakes