What causes disadvantage

Richard Hillman

As touched upon previously, I think there is the same type of Brain drain as you see in low socio economic areas as Dublin.

For towns around Ireland, the true potential of a person is outside of the town and into cities. In areas of Dublin its slightly different in that as soon as they get a well paying job its see-ya-later scumsville.

Its basically a case of why would you want to live here when you can live somewhere better? The unemployed are the leftovers, most bordering unemployable.

One eyed Jack

splinter65 wrote: »

The principle said Tipp Town is a very disadvantaged area. Your immediate response was that they’ve just won the All Ireland so that’s clearly nonsense.
You clearly know nothing about Irish geography. Tipp Town is an actual urban area not just “ a town in Tipperary” as you seem to think. Tipperary is the largest inland county in Ireland which was large enough to be divided into 2 ridings until quite recently.
What you’ve said in effect is that as the Dublin football team have won 4 all Ireland’s in a row that this means that there are no impoverished areas in Dublin.
Your posts are cringe making. Even a cursory google of Tipp Town shows it to be near the top of economically disadvantaged urban areas in Ireland.

You’re right, I missed the “town” bit in the opening post. It’s still nonsense to suggest that Tipp town is any less disadvantaged than anywhere else in the country. My initial response was a joke in response to what I figured was an effort to complain about the lack of investment in the area. I later made the point that companies aren’t going to invest in an area where they aren’t going to see a return on their investment.

Gregor Samsa

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody is going to invest in an area where they won’t see a return on their investment. That’s just bad business. It doesn’t mean any county is at a disadvantage or another county has an advantage, it simply means companies aren’t willing to invest in areas where they aren’t going to see a return on their investment.

You seem to be denying the common understanding of the words "advantage" and "disadvantage".

An area that can provide a greater return on investment has an advantage over an area that will provide a lesser return.

An area that provides a lesser rerun on investment has a disadvantage over an area that will provide a greater return.

So your answer to the question "what causes disadvantage?" is "poor return on investment". And that's a perfectly valid (if possibly incomplete) answer.

The next logical question, of course, is why do some areas offer a better return on investment than others...

One eyed Jack

phutyle wrote: »

You seem to be denying the common understanding of the words "advantage" and "disadvantage".

An area that can provide a greater return on investment has an advantage over an area that will provide a lesser return.

An area that provides a lesser rerun on investment has a disadvantage over an area that will provide a greater return.

So your answer to the question "what causes disadvantage?" is "poor return on investment". And that's a perfectly valid (if possibly incomplete) answer.

The next logical question, of course, is why do some areas offer a better return on investment than others...

I was more coming at it from the angle of companies being unwilling to invest in or locate in areas where I suppose as you would say they would be at a disadvantage over locating in another area which may offer them greater opportunities for a return on their investment. What advantages or disadvantages those are will depend upon the type of industry or services provided (plenty of areas in Tipp attract tourists for example), but if councillors in Tipp town are anything like the closed shop that are councillors in towns like Nenagh, then they’re unlikely to see any investment any time soon and companies will be more likely to locate in cities like Limerick and Cork who are trying to attract investment which will generate employment in those areas instead.

YFlyer

mcmoustache wrote: »

There are feck all jobs there. The jobs are in the cities. That's the long and short of it. Eric has offered some useful solutions in his post that would help solve this problem.

They can get the train from Limerick Junction to Limerick City to the jobs.

Sleepy

Primarily? Negligent parents.

If you want your kids to have a shot at life you either need to raise them somewhere they have employment opportunities or raise them with enough focus on their education and work ethic that they can find work outside of the two horse village you raised them in.

Enough parents not doing that and you end up with these "disadvantaged areas" full of cradle to grave welfare recipients.

James Brown

Sleepy wrote: »

Primarily? Negligent parents.

If you want your kids to have a shot at life you either need to raise them somewhere they have employment opportunities or raise them with enough focus on their education and work ethic that they can find work outside of the two horse village you raised them in.

Enough parents not doing that and you end up with these "disadvantaged areas" full of cradle to grave welfare recipients.

So if you've a minimum or low wage job and you're living in HAP or a disadvantaged council area what would you do? I would like to know how you'd avoid being 'negligent'.

vriesmays

Tipp Town is a kip, why would a factory move there.

Sleepy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

So if you've a minimum or low wage job and you're living in HAP or a disadvantaged council area what would you do? I would like to know how you'd avoid being 'negligent'.

Haven't had a minimum wage since childhood but let's give it a go:

As a singleton? Quite easy, avail of BTEA and upskill or start a trade apprenticeship. Move to wherever the work is if necessary and grind out the first few years until fully qualified and earning a decent wage.

As a parent? Try the above while ensuring my kids are in school every day, fed, clothed and having had a good nights sleep so they can focus on their education. See where their interests and talents lie and get them focused towards further education / a trade they might be suitable for.

TBH, once secure in a council tenancy, I don't know that my week-to-week disposable income from minimum wage or social welfare would be that different to where it was when my kids were younger and I was spending half my salary on rent. I remember calculating it at the time that unless a job paid more than 45k or so a year (the post is somewhere on boards) I'd be better off on welfare. If anything, with how rents have risen and with increases in welfare rates, I suspect that figure would be closer to 50k these days.

James Brown

Sleepy wrote: »

Haven't had a minimum wage since childhood but let's give it a go:

As a singleton? Quite easy, avail of BTEA and upskill or start a trade apprenticeship. Move to wherever the work is if necessary and grind out the first few years until fully qualified and earning a decent wage.

As a parent? Try the above while ensuring my kids are in school every day, fed, clothed and having had a good nights sleep so they can focus on their education. See where their interests and talents lie and get them focused towards further education / a trade they might be suitable for.

TBH, once secure in a council tenancy, I don't know that my week-to-week disposable income from minimum wage or social welfare would be that different to where it was when my kids were younger and I was spending half my salary on rent. I remember calculating it at the time that unless a job paid more than 45k or so a year (the post is somewhere on boards) I'd be better off on welfare. If anything, with how rents have risen and with increases in welfare rates, I suspect that figure would be closer to 50k these days.

Grand plans but circumstances can get in the way. It's handy enough to get a course in something low level if you have the time and ability. Trades are next to impossible to get unless you've an in.
There are a lot of genuine people out there who work and get by as best they can who would be in such areas. I know people from wealthy families who breeze through life. It's easier to access third level when practically everyone you know has gone and your school and friends expect you to go. Not knocking it, just it's a lot easier to do certain things if you are in the right environment to begin with.
You go to a ****ty school with drunk or disinterested teachers it's a different story. Third level or any college mightn't even occur to you.

mariaalice

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Grand plans but circumstances can get in the way. It's handy enough to get a course in something low level if you have the time and ability. Trades are next to impossible to get unless you've an in.
There are a lot of genuine people out there who work and get by as best they can who would be in such areas. I know people from wealthy families who breeze through life. It's easier to access third level when practically everyone you know has gone and your school and friends expect you to go. Not knocking it, just it's a lot easier to do certain things if you are in the right environment to begin with.
You go to a ****ty school with drunk or disinterested teachers it's a different story. Third level or any college mightn't even occur to you.

So are you saying in disadvantaged areas in 2019 thare are drunk and disinterred teachers? there are no school meal programs before and after school child care, community childcare, family resources centers, family support workers, DARE and HERE schemes for third level enhanced third level grants? and that is just for starters.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

So are you saying in disadvantaged areas in 2019 thare are drunk and disinterred teachers? there are no school meal programs before and after school child care, community childcare, family resources centers, family support workers, DARE and HERE schemes for third level enhanced third level grants? and that is just for starters.

Have you attended a school in a disadvantaged area M?

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

Have you attended a school in a disadvantaged area M?

No, but the post is a gross insult to teachers and implies that teachers in deis schools are of poor quality and uninterested in their job.

LoughNeagh2017

I live a 5 minutes drive from the hub of manufacturing in Ulster yet I am unemployed because employers don't like employing socially awkward Autists yet they probably donate money to Autism and mental health charities, it's a sordid little world. There was a man around 40 in the unemployment course that had worked only a few months in his life.

mariaalice

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I live a 5 minutes drive from the hub of manufacturing in Ulster yet I am unemployed because employers don't like employing socially awkward Autists yet they probably donate money to Autism and mental health charities, it's a sordid little world. There was a man around 40 in the unemployment course that had worked only a few months in his life.

There are schemes to support peole who would not do well in interviews to get employment if you have a diagnosed condition of some sort. I know that dose not work for everyone though.

pinkyeye

mariaalice wrote: »

So are you saying in disadvantaged areas in 2019 thare are drunk and disinterred teachers? there are no school meal programs before and after school child care, community childcare, family resources centers, family support workers, DARE and HERE schemes for third level enhanced third level grants? and that is just for starters.

Are you living in the UK mariaalice? Because there's no school meal program in Ireland??

Beginning to wonder about your posts, have to be honest, I think you're a BOT.

mariaalice

pinkyeye wrote: »

Are you living in the UK mariaalice? Because there's no school meal program in Ireland??

Beginning to wonder about your posts, have to be honest, I think you're a BOT.

In deis schools they can apply for a grant for a school meal program.

One eyed Jack

pinkyeye wrote: »

Are you living in the UK mariaalice? Because there's no school meal program in Ireland??

Beginning to wonder about your posts, have to be honest, I think you're a BOT.

School Meals Programme


Is there maybe something else you’re thinking of?

Sleepy

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Grand plans but circumstances can get in the way. It's handy enough to get a course in something low level if you have the time and ability. Trades are next to impossible to get unless you've an in.
There are a lot of genuine people out there who work and get by as best they can who would be in such areas. I know people from wealthy families who breeze through life. It's easier to access third level when practically everyone you know has gone and your school and friends expect you to go. Not knocking it, just it's a lot easier to do certain things if you are in the right environment to begin with.
You go to a ****ty school with drunk or disinterested teachers it's a different story. Third level or any college mightn't even occur to you.

Plenty of my friends and colleagues throughout my career grew up in so called disadvantaged areas. My wife was literally born on Sheriff Street in the early 80's. None had much money growing up but all "got out". Some did it via third level colleges but others did trades, on-the-job training or professional exams (ATI, Comptia, MS exams etc.) etc.

All had one thing in common: parents that encouraged and prioritised their education and instilled a work ethic in them.

So that's my answer. Able bodied young people who get "stuck" becoming long-term unemployed in deprived areas are those whose parents didn't do this. The parents are to blame.

Sure, middle-class kids have it easier. I certainly had an easier path to a white collar job than many others having parents who had clerical (and later managerial) positions and who supported by education by encouraging us to read, making sure our homework was done, shelled out for grinds when I got a crap French teacher for leaving cert etc.

The world is never going to be a perfectly level playing field: there'll always be those who win the genetic lottery and are born into extreme wealth or with a rare, monetisable, talent.

A motivated parent can, however, virtually ensure that their child doesn't end up at the bottom of society even if that's where they've started. There are myriads of social supports for them, education in Ireland is (by international standards at least) high quality and relatively cheap (again, with supports such as the back to school allowance available for those on low incomes/social welfare). From speaking with friends and family who are teachers the "drunk or disinterested teachers" of our educational youth are extremely rare nowadays and DEIS schools can be as likely to have great teachers as any other. Either way: it's not the teachers, or the school, that determines a child's educational success. It's their parents.

James Brown

mariaalice wrote: »

So are you saying in disadvantaged areas in 2019 thare are drunk and disinterred teachers? there are no school meal programs before and after school child care, community childcare, family resources centers, family support workers, DARE and HERE schemes for third level enhanced third level grants? and that is just for starters.

I'm not currently in Primary or secondary school so I can't say.
I thought we were talking about adults today and why many are where they are.

mariaalice wrote: »

No, but the post is a gross insult to teachers and implies that teachers in deis schools are of poor quality and uninterested in their job.

It most certainly is not and does not. I've seen it myself. I left out the beatings mind. You are jumping ahead. School kids of today aren't currently raising families in disadvantages areas, (mostly not).

James Brown

Sleepy wrote: »

Plenty of my friends and colleagues throughout my career grew up in so called disadvantaged areas. My wife was literally born on Sheriff Street in the early 80's. None had much money growing up but all "got out". Some did it via third level colleges but others did trades, on-the-job training or professional exams (ATI, Comptia, MS exams etc.) etc.

All had one thing in common: parents that encouraged and prioritised their education and instilled a work ethic in them.

So that's my answer. Able bodied young people who get "stuck" becoming long-term unemployed in deprived areas are those whose parents didn't do this. The parents are to blame.

Sure, middle-class kids have it easier. I certainly had an easier path to a white collar job than many others having parents who had clerical (and later managerial) positions and who supported by education by encouraging us to read, making sure our homework was done, shelled out for grinds when I got a crap French teacher for leaving cert etc.

The world is never going to be a perfectly level playing field: there'll always be those who win the genetic lottery and are born into extreme wealth or with a rare, monetisable, talent.

A motivated parent can, however, virtually ensure that their child doesn't end up at the bottom of society even if that's where they've started. There are myriads of social supports for them, education in Ireland is (by international standards at least) high quality and relatively cheap (again, with supports such as the back to school allowance available for those on low incomes/social welfare). From speaking with friends and family who are teachers the "drunk or disinterested teachers" of our educational youth are extremely rare nowadays and DEIS schools can be as likely to have great teachers as any other. Either way: it's not the teachers, or the school, that determines a child's educational success. It's their parents.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. If you grew up in a low income family were one or both of your parents work full time chances are you are leaving school as early as possible to get a job yourself. Also you may attend a school with a zero percent college attendance rate and no talk of it during your school years. Going to college or university isn't in the language in some areas. Someone might have a cousin or other. In such an environment getting a steady decent paying job is the goal.

Seanachai

Lux23 wrote: »

Those with the get up and go tend to leave and get jobs elsewhere. Those that stay behind either have family commitments or they are handed a job in a family business. The rest aren't neccessarily lazy, but they don't have the drive to go and build themselves a career or to move to a bigger city with more oppourtunties. You will meet these people in every small town or rural location. Slackers.

That's pretty much the reality, I don't think it's fair to call those that aren't overly ambitious slackers though. My understanding of a slacker is somebody who's an idler and just wants to be passive in life and get wasted. Those that aren't very aspirational can still be very hard workers, they just aren't career minded or don't have the aptitude to go further.

freshpopcorn

A lot of factor I'd say to be honest.
This is just an example I know of.
Girl A and Girl B both are from a poor enough area however girls B parents are well off and have good jobs.
Both fall pregnant around their leaving cert..
Girl A wasn't overly academic and wanted to go down the route of hair and beauty/etc
Girl B wanted to go to college.

Both sit there leaving cert after giving birth a few months before hand.

Girl A finds it easy enough to get into her hair dressing courses. However when shes there she has little money and not a lot of support at home. She eventually figures out she's better off at home.

Girl B doesn't get on great but her parents pay for her to attend a grinds school and always look after the kid.
They fund here car, accomodation, fees the next year etc. She does pick up a part time job tough.

Girl B would give you a story about how she did everything herself and how hard it was.(Now she studied and passed her exams) but she had lots of support and money at home but she'd turn her nose up at girl A thinking she should have done the same.

Girl A essential gets stuck in a rut and may pick up odd jobs over the year whilst girl b has a lot more chances of getting out of their area.

Seanachai

LirW wrote: »

Geography comes into play with a healthy amount of inbreeding. I live in an area where a few villages and small towns are considered "disadvantaged". A lot has to do with location here. Dublin is too far away for a sustainable commute because it's 30 minutes to the closest motorway. The bigger surrounding towns don't provide enough low-skilled jobs and everyone who is educated leaves. If you're lucky enough to score work in Wexford town you consider moving but the south-east has little stability going for skilled people. Waterford is also too far away and while Kilkenny is reached within an hour, a lot of people don't bother driving that distance for a minimum wage because they are literally better off on social welfare.
The two "big" employers in the area are a meat processing plant and a plastic manufacturer. Not particularly attractive to anyone who trained in something.

So whoever stays has a crap hand dealt, many have family commitments or moving is too expensive. People with money don't move into villages but stay in the ribbon developments because it's more private. So you're left with a good percentage of the bottom that have issues, are tied to the area, are too cozy in their small world between the post office and the pub.

There's inbreeding in the inner cities and among the upper middle classes of South Dublin also, we're an island people so we're pretty closely related in any case. I'm from the SE, my local hometown was devastated during the crash as the trade guys and the semi-skilled were relying on Dublin a lot for work.

I'm told by my family now though that there's a stream of traffic coming up from Co.Wexford again travelling to Dublin early in the mornings. The town is still dead, that could be because the money just isn't as good now or people are just in too much debt.

James Brown

Seanachai wrote: »

There's inbreeding in the inner cities and among the upper middle classes of South Dublin also, we're an island people so we're pretty closely related in any case. I'm from the SE, my local hometown was devastated during the crash as the trade guys and the semi-skilled were relying on Dublin a lot for work.

I'm told by my family now though that there's a stream of traffic coming up from Co.Wexford again travelling to Dublin early in the mornings. The town is still dead, that could be because the money just isn't as good now or people are just in too much debt.

'in breeding'?
It's a small country, but not that small. Could do with a larger gene pool but 'in breeding' is a stretch.

CrankyHaus

A lot of these stats are distorted by rural one off housing.

In Tipperary most people with means buy or build a house outside towns. Those without means are left in the town, which now has severe disadvantage stats. Compare the overall County stats to the national averages and you'll get a very different story.

mariaalice

CrankyHaus wrote: »

A lot of these stats are distorted by rural one off housing.

In Tipperary most people with means buy or build a house outside towns. Those without means are left in the town, which now has severe disadvantage stats. Compare the overall County stats to the national averages and you'll get a very different story.

That is probably as logical an explanation as any.

LirW

Seanachai wrote: »

There's inbreeding in the inner cities and among the upper middle classes of South Dublin also, we're an island people so we're pretty closely related in any case. I'm from the SE, my local hometown was devastated during the crash as the trade guys and the semi-skilled were relying on Dublin a lot for work.

I'm told by my family now though that there's a stream of traffic coming up from Co.Wexford again travelling to Dublin early in the mornings. The town is still dead, that could be because the money just isn't as good now or people are just in too much debt.

Have you looked recently what's out there for work in Co. Wexford? Not an awful lot for someone who is has a certain skill set. The SE in general is a really tough patch for educated workforce and the good jobs rarely become available. I was looking for work in the area myself and it's really really hard because so many people would rather cut down their commute.

Oranage2

freshpopcorn wrote: »

A lot of factor I'd say to be honest.
This is just an example I know of.
Girl A and Girl B both are from a poor enough area however girls B parents are well off and have good jobs.
Both fall pregnant around their leaving cert..
Girl A wasn't overly academic and wanted to go down the route of hair and beauty/etc
Girl B wanted to go to college.

Both sit there leaving cert after giving birth a few months before hand.

Girl A finds it easy enough to get into her hair dressing courses. However when shes there she has little money and not a lot of support at home. She eventually figures out she's better off at home.

Girl B doesn't get on great but her parents pay for her to attend a grinds school and always look after the kid.
They fund here car, accomodation, fees the next year etc. She does pick up a part time job tough.

Girl B would give you a story about how she did everything herself and how hard it was.(Now she studied and passed her exams) but she had lots of support and money at home but she'd turn her nose up at girl A thinking she should have done the same.

Girl A essential gets stuck in a rut and may pick up odd jobs over the year whilst girl b has a lot more chances of getting out of their area.

Hypotheticals are pointless we could tell a billion different stories to suit our points. Of course people are dealt truly bad hands in life.

But overall I agree with Sleepy, unfortunately these parents don't know better or don't care and the cycle continues.

Eric Cartman

freshpopcorn wrote: »

A lot of factor I'd say to be honest.
This is just an example I know of.
Girl A and Girl B both are from a poor enough area however girls B parents are well off and have good jobs.
Both fall pregnant around their leaving cert..
Girl A wasn't overly academic and wanted to go down the route of hair and beauty/etc
Girl B wanted to go to college.

Both sit there leaving cert after giving birth a few months before hand.

Girl A finds it easy enough to get into her hair dressing courses. However when shes there she has little money and not a lot of support at home. She eventually figures out she's better off at home.

Girl B doesn't get on great but her parents pay for her to attend a grinds school and always look after the kid.
They fund here car, accomodation, fees the next year etc. She does pick up a part time job tough.

Girl B would give you a story about how she did everything herself and how hard it was.(Now she studied and passed her exams) but she had lots of support and money at home but she'd turn her nose up at girl A thinking she should have done the same.

Girl A essential gets stuck in a rut and may pick up odd jobs over the year whilst girl b has a lot more chances of getting out of their area.

and then theres girl C who's parents taught her personal responsibility and who didn't get pregnant before college....

also in your scenario above, chances are girl b's parents are at work all day and while they can help financially, unless theyre wealthy enough they wont have the money to have that child minded all day, Girl A's parents probably are more able to provide support due to knowing how she can play the welfare system and being around all day and having a larger family around to help mind the child. in your scenario somebody who doesn't work and is at home all day as a parent trumps 2 parents working for almost anything under 60k a piece.