Survivor: Island of the Idols

Also Starring LeVar Burton

kingtut wrote: »

Rudy Boesch from Season 1 died last night age 90. RIP.

RIP

Thargor

A shocking tribal council like nothing Jeff Probst has ever seen coming up according to notifications on my phone, Im avoiding spoilers.

seligehgit

Thargor wrote: »

A shocking tribal council like nothing Jeff Probst has ever seen coming up according to notifications on my phone, Im avoiding spoilers.

Shocking from the viewpoint that it turned into a prolonged empowerment of women platform.

Not what tribal council is about at all.

Janet the voice of experience and a player of real substance gave the standout oration.

Well played Kellee.

Foxtrol

seligehgit wrote: »

Shocking from the viewpoint that it turned into a prolonged empowerment of women platform.

Not what tribal council is about at all.

Janet the voice of experience and a player of real substance gave the standout oration.

Well played Kellee.

Your post reads like it offended you and if so it probably says more about your mindset.

I didn't see it as a prolonged empowerment of women platform, more a good discussion about the dynamics of 'all women's alliances' in relation to what is happening in the real world.

It was pretty insightful of where each player sat on the subject (or at least claimed to sit) and is even more interesting given how a number of the women in the game have been angling for one since early in the game. I hope Jeff holds them to what they said during this council if a women's alliance forms later in the game and any of these women are a part of it.

seligehgit

Foxtrol wrote: »

Your post reads like it offended you and if so it probably says more about your mindset.

I didn't see it as a prolonged empowerment of women platform, more a good discussion about the dynamics of 'all women's alliances' in relation to what is happening in the real world.

It was pretty insightful of where each player sat on the subject (or at least claimed to sit) and is even more interesting given how a number of the women in the game have been angling for one since early in the game. I hope Jeff holds them to what they said during this council if a women's alliance forms later in the game and any of these women are a part of it.

It didn't offend me in the slightest and you are wrong in your assumptions re my mindset.

Merely stating what I believed a portion of the conversation was and that it's hardly the first time it's been stated.

IMO outside of mention that Noura had considered an all female alliance the conversation as a whole was not relevant.Interesting but not pertinent to the vote out,conversation more tangential to who was going home.

Some women are interested such alliances and actively seek same,others aren't.

If you read my post I thought Janet spoke well.I truly believe she won't be seeking such an alliance.

Every chance it will happen as the dynamics of the game can change so quickly and as we all well know in survivor not all statements made at this tribal council can be considered to be sacrosanct.

There have been all women alliances that have comprehensively outplayed their male compatriots.I recall in particular the black widow alliance with Pavarti,Amanda and Cirie.

I respect your opinion to disagree.

Foxtrol

seligehgit wrote: »

It didn't offend me in the slightest and you are wrong in your assumptions re my mindset.

Merely stating what I believed a portion of the conversation was and that it's hardly the first time it's been stated.

Well your attempt to frame the tribal council as a 'prolonged empowerment of women platform' gave a very different impression.

IMO outside of mention that Noura had considered an all female alliance the conversation as a whole was not relevant.Interesting but not pertinent to the vote out.

Noura didn't bring it up, Jamal raised it as a concern and why he potentially felt pressure and the conversation went from there.

A potential woman's alliance is something that has been raised repeatedly during the season so since when are conversations at tribal supposed to be only limited to specifically that vote? They nearly always talk a few steps down the line.

Some women are interested such alliances and actively seek same,others aren't.

If you read my post I thought Janet spoke well.I truly believe she won't be seeking such an alliance.

Every chance it will happen as the dynamics of the game can change so quickly and as we all well know in survivor not all statements made at this tribal council can be considered to be sacrosanct.

There have been all women alliances that have comprehensively outplayed their male compatriots.I recall in particular the black widow alliance with Pavarti,Amanda and Cirie.

Survivor alliances are generally driven by three basic categories - convenience, necessity and a true bond. Some women will not seek an all women alliance for the sake of it but all of those drivers can put them in that position - tribe split, feeling more likely to beat other women in physical challenges, and in general having more in common and therefore easier to bond with those of your own gender.

These women alliances didn't in the past or now have much, if anything, to do with 'empowerment of women' nor did this conversation at tribal. It was a discussion of the drivers of them and some women pushed back on it, some of those likely honestly and others for cover.

seligehgit

Foxtrol wrote: »

Well your attempt to frame the tribal council as a 'prolonged empowerment of women platform' gave a very different impression.



Noura didn't bring it up, Jamal raised it as a concern and why he potentially felt pressure and the conversation went from there.

A potential woman's alliance is something that has been raised repeatedly during the season so since when are conversations at tribal supposed to be only limited to specifically that vote? They nearly always talk a few steps down the line.



Survivor alliances are generally driven by three basic categories - convenience, necessity and a true bond. Some women will not seek an all women alliance for the sake of it but all of those drivers can put them in that position - tribe split, feeling more likely to beat other women in physical challenges, and in general having more in common and therefore easier to bond with those of your own gender.

These women alliances didn't in the past or now have much, if anything, to do with 'empowerment of women' nor did this conversation at tribal. It was a discussion of the drivers of them and some women pushed back on it, some of those likely honestly and others for cover.

Ok fair enough my wording 'prolonged empowerment of women platform' was ill thought out to put it mildly.

You have made your points well.

I have to confess I've been less than observant re all the earlier conversation re a suggested all female alliance.

So fair enough it wasn't a talking point to be taken in isolation.

Even taking on your point re the 3 main drivers towards an alliance although some women will not as Janet instinctively gravitate towards a gender based alliance the bolded content pushes many in that direction.

It is amazing how little focus there is ever placed on all men alliances.

I apologise if I offended you with my clumsy use of the english language.

I'm glad to be enlightened.

Foxtrol

seligehgit wrote: »

Ok fair enough my wording 'prolonged empowerment of women platform' was ill thought out to put it mildly.

You have made your points well.

I have to confess I've been less than observant re all the earlier conversation re a suggested all female alliance.

So fair enough it wasn't a talking point to be taken in isolation.

It has come up a few times in previous episodes and it was mentioned again at the start of the episode when they got back from tribal. They were telling her not to worry because she was their only link to the women on the other tribe.

Missy seems to be pushing for it hard, which makes sense as she is the biggest or 2nd biggest physical threat out of the women.

Even taking on your point re the 3 main drivers towards an alliance although some women will not as Janet instinctively gravitate towards a gender based alliance the bolded content pushes many in that direction.

It is amazing how little focus there is ever placed on all men alliances.

Same with some guys not gravitating towards men, Colton from Survivor One World being an obvious example.

I think the original women alliance that you mentioned was a big deal because it hadn't happened before, so gets more notoriety. Large scale alliances on either side by gender rarely work so the rare occasions stick in the mind.

Same comment can be said about how rarely women get targeted early for being potential challenge threats, like many men do, even when it is obvious that some women will do well in challenges post merge. The likes of Ozzy etc are etched in our minds and people fear them accordingly.

I find these perception/motivation discussions interesting and it is why I enjoyed that conversation at tribal.

I apologise if I offended you with my clumsy use of the english language.

I'm glad to be enlightened.

No worries, you didn't offend me

There is a trend on boards (and many other places) that even a discussion that involves race or gender etc on tv/movies gets people annoyed and that's what I took from your original post, which I now know wasn't intended.

seligehgit

Foxtrol wrote: »

It has come up a few times in previous episodes and it was mentioned again at the start of the episode when they got back from tribal. They were telling her not to worry because she was their only link to the women on the other tribe.

Missy seems to be pushing for it hard, which makes sense as she is the biggest or 2nd biggest physical threat out of the women.



Same with some guys not gravitating towards men, Colton from Survivor One World being an obvious example.

I think the original women alliance that you mentioned was a big deal because it hadn't happened before, so gets more notoriety. Large scale alliances on either side by gender rarely work so the rare occasions stick in the mind.

Same comment can be said about how rarely women get targeted early for being potential challenge threats, like many men do, even when it is obvious that some women will do well in challenges post merge. The likes of Ozzy etc are etched in our minds and people fear them accordingly.

I find these perception/motivation discussions interesting and it is why I enjoyed that conversation at tribal.



No worries, you didn't offend me

There is a trend on boards (and many other places) that even a discussion that involves race or gender etc on tv/movies gets people annoyed and that's what I took from your original post, which I now know wasn't intended.

Cheers!

You've an encyclopediac knowledge of Survivor and I thought I was hard core!

Kudos to you.

It's so many of the elements you've mentioned that makes Survivor such a wonderful show most especially the thought processes.

If I didn't know better I'd advise you to apply for the show.You've the acumen and deep understanding of the psychology and various elements that are an intrinsic part of this social experiment.

TimeUp

I saw last tribal council as an opportunity to randomly echo what is being said in the outside world. Vane flattery on the part of the show, IMHO. I loved it, though. Big players starting to be revealed, and I like almost all remaining players, except for Elaine and Tom which I find annoying.

TimeUp

I'm already looking forward to the next episode lol

Agent Coulson

#MeTooSurvivor comes 38 seasons after Richard Hatch touched up everyone.

Kirby

I felt so sorry for Janet. The girls screwed her something fierce and there was a ton of lying and backtracking going on there.

It's easy to say "leave your morals at the door, this is a game. Go and win it" but the reality is that the things you say and do follow you home. She was likely worried how she would come off if she didn't side with the girls and vote off Dan. She wasn't ever likely to win but that really blew up her game big time.

I also was delighted Jamal got voted out. The man has an ego the size of a planet. There is a guy who loves the sound of his own voice. He was grandstanding in that tribal. If I had been there I would have told him to pipe down, stop trying to speak for all men and speak for yourself.

Foxtrol

Aside from the Zeke outing, that was probably the most uncomfortable and annoyed I've felt about gameplay strategy/decision.

I've no problem with people ruining their own character by swearing on their kids or lying about a dead grandma but Missy and Elizabeth manipulated others based on slandering someone else's character for their game in a way that has implications for him in the real world.

At least with the Zeke situation they were able to deal with it all during that tribal but given how no one raised Missy and Elizabeth's twisting of things it feels maybe even dirtier than the Zeke situation and looking at social media it will likely now fester until the reunion show. From their social media posts neither Missy nor Elizabeth seemed to have any self-awareness of how their actions were going to be seen by the public so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets mentioned again during the main season.

Foxtrol

Kirby wrote: »

I felt so sorry for Janet. The girls screwed her something fierce and there was a ton of lying and backtracking going on there.

It's easy to say "leave your morals at the door, this is a game. Go and win it" but the reality is that the things you say and do follow you home. She was likely worried how she would come off if she didn't side with the girls and vote off Dan. She wasn't ever likely to win but that really blew up her game big time.

Janet doesn't come across as a person who made that choice so she could look good to viewers at home. She appeared to genuinely want to do it to support the other women, even though she was probably the closest to Dan out of all of them.

I also was delighted Jamal got voted out. The man has an ego the size of a planet. There is a guy who loves the sound of his own voice. He was grandstanding in that tribal. If I had been there I would have told him to pipe down, stop trying to speak for all men and speak for yourself.

I agree with a lot of your characterization of Jamal but he was 100% right on Aaron's comments.

Jamal's other admittedly grandstandy statement about men taking a step back and believing women is exactly why so many are annoyed at Missy and Elizabeth's manipulation and how their actions could easily feed into sentiments against this.

Foxtrol

Also, Janet must be a shoo-in to get the Sia dollars this year.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Wow, Elisabeth and Missy lost any respect I had for them - what they pulled was so damaging. Dan (everything else aside) and Aaron didn't come off smelling of roses after their comments at Tribal either - very mansplainy and their attitudes in general just felt icky.

Kellee made a stupid decision not playing one of her idols - the first tribal after a merge is so volatile, you should definitely play one if you have it, and if you've got 2 it's a no brainer. Was disappointed to see Jamal and Kellee go, they were probably the two that had grown on me the most this season. Not a whole lot of people left worth rooting for - Karishma, Dean, and Janet are clearly the underdogs and arguably the most likable left in it, so backing those three for the time being.

seligehgit

Not much to add.

The treatment suffered by the principled Janet at those she sought to help was despicable.

Elizabeth's lie in particular comes to mind.

Heart went out to her with the obvious ostracization she suffered.

Thargor

Interesting season! Definitely not the dud it seemed at the start anyway...

TimeUp

Disappointed with the last episode. A bit too predictable.

Foxtrol

TimeUp wrote: »

Disappointed with the last episode. A bit too predictable.

The one last night? I'd describe the two that went home more the smart moves to make rather than use the term predictable. What I'd generally call predicable play is when the group sticks with their alliances and make the easy votes, which would have been Janet and Karishma in this situation.

To be fair, aside from the madness of last week, the votes this season have trended towards the smart moves than basic alliance lines.

TimeUp

Foxtrol wrote: »

The one last night? I'd describe the two that went home more the smart moves to make rather than use the term predictable. What I'd generally call predicable play is when the group sticks with their alliances and make the easy votes, which would have been Janet and Karishma in this situation.

To be fair, aside from the madness of last week, the votes this season have trended towards the smart moves than basic alliance lines.

I was happy about the people that went home, what I thought was predictable was the edit. I knew who was leaving almost since the minute the challenge was over.

I like how the game is unfolding, just, so far I've loved the edit this season partly because they have managed to make votes look unexpected without it looking completely illogical (sometimes you don't expect a vote to unfold a certain way simply because they deliberately conceal what's going on from the viewer, i.e. Michaela in Game Changers, which feels like cheating on the part of the show and is not as exciting). This year they had managed a beautiful balance between suspense and consistency. I'm still enjoying the season, just, after this episode I'm not looking forward to the next one as much as I was last week.

seligehgit

TimeUp wrote: »

Disappointed with the last episode. A bit too predictable.

Yikes I thought it was cracking episode.

Really smart move to get rid of Aaron.

Violently swing between great sympathy for Karishma and a want for her removal from the game.:)

She appears to have a near innate ability to feel sorry for her predicament,laze about the place and depressingly accept her predicament/fate.Yet there are cultural differences which she's mentioned that hinder her ability to get traction in the game.There's a generational schism vis a vis the younger girls and her lack of athleticism.Yet perhaps I give her too much credit and it's simply the fact that her greatest weakness is she is in possession of such a poor social game?

However I did admire the way she stood up for herself against what I'd consider the mean girls attitude of Missy and Elizabeth.Missy's apology lacked any sincerity and her parting remarks to Elizabeth offered a truer reflection of a personality that is part bully girl and vengeful.Foolhardy of Elaine to reveal her treason at such a tense moment.

It was truly ridiculous the way in which the HII fell into Karishma's lap who I'd have imagined expended all the energy of minute searching for same.God be days when one earned a HII in such a search.

Foxtrol

TimeUp wrote: »

I was happy about the people that went home, what I thought was predictable was the edit. I knew who was leaving almost since the minute the challenge was over.

I like how the game is unfolding, just, so far I've loved the edit this season partly because they have managed to make votes look unexpected without it looking completely illogical (sometimes you don't expect a vote to unfold a certain way simply because they deliberately conceal what's going on from the viewer, i.e. Michaela in Game Changers, which feels like cheating on the part of the show and is not as exciting). This year they had managed a beautiful balance between suspense and consistency. I'm still enjoying the season, just, after this episode I'm not looking forward to the next one as much as I was last week.

I can see where you're coming from more now but I feel it is more due to the choices that players are taking this season, with nearly every time they tease a non-straight forward vote it ends up being the direction they take. Many other seasons it might only be once or twice in a season they make a 'big move', whereas it is happening every week to the point where it has become somewhat predictable.

S.M.B.

Enjoyable episode considering the sh*t show that was the previous week. I had no issue with the edit, classic swing vote conundrums x 2.

Interesting to see how the cards fall now after that double vote. Curious to see if this Goat alliance can work.

Kirby

seligehgit wrote: »

It was truly ridiculous the way in which the HII fell into Karishma's lap who I'd have imagined expended all the energy of minute searching for same.God be days when one earned a HII in such a search.

Couldn't agree more. I mean that idol was in plain sight, waist height in a tree on the MAIN PATH. Bloody hell like how could you miss it? It was like a gimme. It was a dead certainty to be found.

Earlier seasons you would have people searching for days on end. Say what you want about people like Russell, but jaysus did he earn his idols.

I also guarantee you that there was an idol placed at that old lairo beach and not one of them went looking.

Agent Coulson

Come on Karishma

S.M.B.

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Come on Karishma

Winners edit? Maybe not but I'm fully on board the Karishma train right now. She's certainly no archetype we've seen over and over again for 30 seasons.

Foxtrol

She's shown no social or physical game play and playing that idol was such an obvious move. When you add to that how annoying she is I really don't see what people see in her.

Cherry_Cola

At least her speech seemed to spook them into using another idol. Was a terrible use of one.

Foxtrol

Cherry_Cola wrote: »

At least her speech seemed to spook them into using another idol. Was a terrible use of one.

With how things played out that was a waste of an idol but with the information available at that moment I think it was a good move.

Lauren knew they were supposed to be all putting votes on Karishma and once she played an idol it would only likely take 2 votes to push her out. Her idol was only good for 2 tribals, it is unlikely you'll be as sure of something crazy happening as that tribal.

Thargor

No ep this week?

seligehgit

Foxtrol wrote: »

She's shown no social or physical game play and playing that idol was such an obvious move. When you add to that how annoying she is I really don't see what people see in her.

It might be the obvious move but what option had she?

Totally agree re her absence of any advantageous physical attributes and her less than optimum social game.

She's an awful moaner but I'm prepared to give her a bit of break as I think some of her difficulties are culturally related.She's confessed to same from early in the game.

Definitely feel sorry on the basis she's totally on the outs and is a tad ostracised.Pretty lonely spot.

The point was made at tribal how it's difficult to win survivor as a free agent as it's harder to build more permanent solid ties with other players.

However nobody is willing to give her the opportunity to cross the trench in the sand and become a member of an alliance.

Kind of Lord of the Flies vibe for me when somebody is so much on the outs.

Such a wasted playing of the other II.

S.M.B.

Foxtrol wrote: »

She's shown no social or physical game play and playing that idol was such an obvious move. When you add to that how annoying she is I really don't see what people see in her.

I think it's interesting how she is well aware of how much she is struggling physically. I think if the average survivor fan was to go on the show they would have a similar realisation. Her social game is not great but as others have said some of that is due to cultural differences.

She's clearly a fan of the game and is no goat as her game isn't the most passive.

I just think she's different to the archetypes we've seen in the past. Add to that the sourness of a few episodes ago and you've got the under dog I'm happy to root for.

Foxtrol

seligehgit wrote: »

It might be the obvious move but what option had she?

I meant it as being an obvious move as in I don't give her any credit for it, like I would if you played it for someone else or played it at the right time when it wasn't obvious you're on the chopping block.

Totally agree re her absence of any advantageous physical attributes and her less than optimum social game.

She's an awful moaner but I'm prepared to give her a bit of break as I think some of her difficulties are culturally related.She's confessed to same from early in the game.

Definitely feel sorry on the basis she's totally on the outs and is a tad ostracised.Pretty lonely spot.

The point was made at tribal how it's difficult to win survivor as a free agent as it's harder to build more permanent solid ties with other players.

However nobody is willing to give her the opportunity to cross the trench in the sand and become a member of an alliance.

Kind of Lord of the Flies vibe for me when somebody is so much on the outs.

I feel sorry for her to be at the bottom but most of her difficulties are caused by herself. She seems incredibly annoying to be around, paranoid, and lazy at camp.

Such a wasted playing of the other II.

Disagree. One of only 2 tribals you can play it and the person who you were voting out, and seemingly not splitting votes well on, played an idol. Could come back to bite her in the next tribal if something crazy happened but better to be safe than sorry.

Foxtrol

S.M.B. wrote: »

I think it's interesting how she is well aware of how much she is struggling physically. I think if the average survivor fan was to go on the show they would have a similar realisation. Her social game is not great but as others have said some of that is due to cultural differences.

She's clearly a fan of the game and is no goat as her game isn't the most passive.

I just think she's different to the archetypes we've seen in the past. Add to that the sourness of a few episodes ago and you've got the under dog I'm happy to root for.

Even as american's go for being self confident, it would take crazy levels to not be aware of how bad you are if you were her. She was a disaster in nearly every challenge she's been in, she's continuously complaining, and it has been voiced how lazy she is at camp.

I think we've seen many non-passive goats. Aside from being passive, being a goat can be about being dislike or not being respected. She falls into the latter category.

S.M.B.

Can't argue with any of that really. I do think the producers have been trying to paint in her in a more positive light the past two weeks which has probably rubbed off on me.

Thargor

Apparently Karishnas idol play was the first time a woman has played an idol properly instead of wasting it or going home with it in their pocket since Kelley Wentworth on Cambodia (Season 31)!

Grats

Where are ye watching this?

S.M.B.

Thargor wrote: »

Apparently Karishnas idol play was the first time a woman has played an idol properly instead of wasting it or going home with it in their pocket since Kelley Wentworth on Cambodia (Season 31)!

You could argue that Kellee giving hers to Dean was not a waste but

a) giving to someone else to play it correctly does not count
b) even if it does count, giving it to Dean was a just as much a waste as it blew up her game

seligehgit

Ok am I reading it right that Noura was playing up her need to improve her elementary school understanding of mathematics in a ploy to get Dean and co to not throw all their votes on Tommy?Or more so was it a deep distrust of Noura based on her abject confusion re the vote and newly pledged loyalty to the 3 outsiders.

TBH if Dean blew open their intention to vote out Tommy based on impulse it screwed up a chance to mix the game up as Tommy would likely have gone with the 2 votes on Elaine ( HII played ) and Karishma.

Or perhaps I'm talking utter raimeis and I missed the undercurrent from the get go that all in sundry were intent on putting lonely Karishma out of her misery.

Grats

What channel is it on?

Mr E

It's on in the States, Grats. The only way to watch here is to stream or download (but we can't talk about that)

Grats

Mr E wrote: »

It's on in the States, Grats. The only way to watch here is to stream or download (but we can't talk about that)

Ah, I just wondered had I been missing it on TG4. Thanks for reply.

Mean Laqueefa

Im starting to dislike survivor, i still have love and will watch but that tribal was pony ! Ive always hated the whispering but last night was brutal, Jeff should have told to them to STFU.



Ive really no idea why Rob or sandra are there randomly, and if they have some sway in bringing someone back or some crap like that, lads thats not survivor

Karishma

Gone good she was crap in every ascpet of the game exception of someone playing an idol correctly.

Its all abit crap these days, the Australian version is far superior if you loved old style survivor, don't get me wrong i love it but theirs something i don't or cant put my finger on.

S.M.B.

Dean is the worst.

Foxtrol

S.M.B. wrote: »

Dean is the worst.

He is playing a terrible game in nearly every area. I understand he has been on the bottom for a long time and your mindset becomes focused on just making it through the next vote but he seems to be playing as if his goal is a 4th-6th place finish.

Noura is a complete wildcard and hard to trust but given the fact she hadn't spilled the beans up to that point then you have to take your shot at the power alliance, as you're unlikely to get another opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if his pure vanity got the better of him and he didn't want to be seen to be associated with the 'Goat Army' and would prefer to take the longer shot that Tommy will appreciate his honesty and drag him to the end.

seligehgit

Foxtrol wrote: »

He is playing a terrible game in nearly every area. I understand he has been on the bottom for a long time and your mindset becomes focused on just making it through the next vote but he seems to be playing as if his goal is a 4th-6th place finish.

Noura is a complete wildcard and hard to trust but given the fact she hadn't spilled the beans up to that point then you have to take your shot at the power alliance, as you're unlikely to get another opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if his pure vanity got the better of him and he didn't want to be seen to be associated with the 'Goat Army' and would prefer to take the longer shot that Tommy will appreciate his honesty and drag him to the end.

Indeed what an illogical move when he could have made a self beneficial game changing call.

Agent Coulson

Holy crap.

Foxtrol

Bit harsh on Elaine, completely overshadowing her exit but I understand why they stuck it in at the end of this episode rather than it taking all the focus from the finale.

Presume there is some sort of lawsuit going on that they are refusing to say what Dan did (again) and they're also pretaping the finale, which might be to ensure no one says anything they shouldn't.

Really tainted the whole season of survivor. They're lucky what the next season is as it will be hard for long term fans to be turned off by it.