House Rewire - DIY first-fix?

GreeBo

Hey,

what are the options/implications of doing a DIY rewire but only up to first-fox/running the wires?

I need to get a new DB but also the house would benefit from a rewire.
However I cant get anyone to even quote for it as running the cables will be awkward (lots of chasing, tiles etc, existing sockets on skirting boards)

So, is it permissible/advisable/a thing to run the wires myself and then have a RECI do the second fix?

Assuming it would pass certification, are there any issues with this approach?

Cheers!

Qelres.

Trust me

You will do everything wrong even if it was allowed

And that's not being smart either

GreeBo

Qelres. wrote: »

Trust me

You will do everything wrong even if it was allowed

And that's not being smart either

Rather than just trust you, can you give me some examples of what you think I would do wrong?

Qelres.

Isolation of sockets

Height of points ,distribution board

Smoke/co/ heat alarms siting

Main bonding/ local bonding

Wiring and type of cabling

Boxes fitted flush

Wiring of bathroom circuits

Bruthal

It won't be likely to get someone to take over another's part done installation.

2011

Qelres. wrote: »

Isolation of sockets

Height of points ,distribution board

Smoke/co/ heat alarms siting

Main bonding/ local bonding

Wiring and type of cabling

Boxes fitted flush

Wiring of bathroom circuits

As well as:

Cable types
Cable sizes
Cable routing
Cable segregation
Isolators (lack thereof and positioning)
Satellite wiring
Alarm wiring
Meter cabinet installation
Socket circuit numbers / types
Heating controls wiring

GreeBo

Qelres. wrote: »

Isolation of sockets

Are you talking about ring-mains, spurs etc or actual isolation switches or something else here?

Qelres. wrote: »

Height of points ,

This is a standard, why would I get it wrong?

Qelres. wrote: »

distribution board

Wont be touching the board.

Qelres. wrote: »

Smoke/co/ heat alarms siting

Again, why would I get this wrong? Alarm in every bedroom or any room that could be isolated and not achieve the required DB level.

Qelres. wrote: »

Main bonding/ local bonding

wouldnt be touching the mains bonding (It needs to be upgraded along with the DB) Why would I get local bonding wrong?

Qelres. wrote: »

Wiring and type of cabling

Why wouldnt I be using standard domestic wire for both lighting and sockets?

Qelres. wrote: »

Boxes fitted flush

I can fit boxes and have done so many times before.

Qelres. wrote: »

Wiring of bathroom circuits

I dont have bathroom circuits other than appropriate IP rated spot lights.

Anything else you can think okf?

GreeBo

Bruthal wrote: »

It won't be likely to get someone to take over another's part done installation.

Yeah, this was my biggest concern to be fair, but if it passes a PIR would they still not be happy to give a completion cert, etc?

How is that any different them them coming into any existing dwelling and doing work on an existing system?

listermint

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you talking about ring-mains, spurs etc or actual isolation switches or something else here?

This is a standard, why would I get it wrong?

Wont be touching the board.

Again, why would I get this wrong? Alarm in every bedroom or any room that could be isolated and not achieve the required DB level.

wouldnt be touching the mains bonding (It needs to be upgraded along with the DB) Why would I get local bonding wrong?


Why wouldnt I be using standard domestic wire for both lighting and sockets?


I can fit boxes and have done so many times before.



I dont have bathroom circuits other than appropriate IP rated spot lights.


Anything else you can think okf?

Gas that the apprentices are always given the task of chasing runs fitting boxes pulling and running cables. But you'll get it wrong.....

Qelres.

listermint wrote: »

Gas that the apprentices are always given the task of chasing runs fitting boxes pulling and running cables. But you'll get it wrong.....

They're instructed and supervised

Domestic electrical work isn't rocket science but its all regulated

GreeBo

Qelres. wrote: »

They're instructed and supervised

Domestic electrical work isn't rocket science but its all regulated

Agreed, which is why I'm only talking about first-fix, the grunt work.

If I'm pulling a 2.5 TWE for a couple of ring mains, 1.5 TWE for lighting & alarm circuits and 10 TWE for each of shower, oven & hob.

Whats the actual downside if a RECI completes the job and it passes a PIR?

Even better would be if I could get a sparks to come up with the wiring plan and then come back to me when I've run it, but thats probably a slim chance.

BTW, I'm not trying to be snarky here, genuinely trying to find out what the issues would/could be.

Qelres.

You could train a chimp to do the basics

But the key is the training

2011

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you talking about ring-mains, spurs etc or actual isolation switches or something else here?

I would guess that he is referring to the sockets that must have isolators to comply with the rules.

Wont be touching the board.

To first fix an installation wiring must be installed to the new DB.

Again, why would I get this wrong? Alarm in every bedroom or any room that could be isolated and not achieve the required DB level.

Interlink cabling perhaps, who knows?

wouldnt be touching the mains bonding (It needs to be upgraded along with the DB)

Why?

Why wouldnt I be using standard domestic wire for both lighting and sockets?

Perhaps you should state what "standard wiring” is then others can answer whether you have selected the correct type or not.

I can fit boxes and have done so many times before.

People often say that then they use boxes that are poorly positioned, not deep enough or the threads are gone.

I dont have bathroom circuits other than appropriate IP rated spot lights.

You know that there is more to bathroom lighting than that?
Clue: RCD protection

Even better would be if I could get a sparks to come up with the wiring plan and then come back to me when I've run it, but thats probably a slim chance.

If you need a “wiring plan” you should not be first fixing an installation unsupervised.

Anything else you can think okf?

Yes, lots but here are a few:
1) As this is illegal RECs generally won't be interested in risking their reputation.

2) Although you suggest that you know how to first fix properly (and maybe you can) it is unlikely to be the case.

3) RECs are generally concerned about getting paid from people who want to "help" in order to "save money".

Risteard81

GreeBo wrote: »

Hey,

what are the options/implications of doing a DIY rewire but only up to first-fox/running the wires?

I need to get a new DB but also the house would benefit from a rewire.
However I cant get anyone to even quote for it as running the cables will be awkward (lots of chasing, tiles etc, existing sockets on skirting boards)

So, is it permissible/advisable/a thing to run the wires myself and then have a RECI do the second fix?

Assuming it would pass certification, are there any issues with this approach?

Cheers!

It is illegal and unlawful. You cannot lawfully first fix it - these are still Restricted Electrical Works. The penalty is up to 15,000 Euro fine and/or three year's imprisonment.

GreeBo

2011 wrote: »

I would guess that he is referring to the sockets that must have isolators to comply with the rules.

Perhaps, but his post/point wasn't very clear.
So isolator for every inbuilt appliance, no big issue there.

2011 wrote: »

To first fix an installation wiring must be installed to the new DB.

I'm using "first-fix" as a catch all term for me running wires and installing boxes myself. I wont be touching the board for obvious reasons.

2011 wrote: »

Interlink cabling perhaps, who knows?

Indeed, who knows what he means, interlink cabling isn't exactly rocket science either?

2011 wrote: »

Why?

Because its ancient and the wrong gauge.

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps you should state what "standard wiring” is then others can answer whether you have selected the correct type or not.

I meant I'm doing a standard domestic re-wire with nothing unusual other than 13amp sockets and lights.
As above I'd expect to use 2.5TWE for sockets and 1.5TWE for lights.

2011 wrote: »

People often say that then they use boxes that are poorly positioned, not deep enough or the threads are gone.

Well in my own house I'm unlikely to bodge the boxes and sit looking at them for the rest of my days, I'd say its far more likely that an inexperienced apprentice would fit them poorly?

2011 wrote: »

You know that there is more to bathroom lighting than that?
Clue: RCD protection

Right, but couldn't/wouldn't you just RCD the whole circuit(s) at the board?

2011 wrote: »

If you need a “wiring plan” you should not be first fixing an installation unsupervised.

I'm assuming the RECI wouldnt just be taking my word for what I had dont and would test it...isnt that the point of a PIR?

2011 wrote: »

Yes, lots but here are a few:
1) As this is illegal RECs generally won't be interested in risking their reputation.

sorry, so you are saying its illegal? Seems like that would have been the salient point to start out with in your reply!

2011 wrote: »

2) Although you suggest that you know how to first fix properly (and maybe you can) it is unlikely to be the case.

Other than not believing that I can fit a box correctly or read the regs on what cable to use, what do you think I cant "do properly"? Again Im genuinely interested here.

2011 wrote: »

3) RECs are generally concerned about getting paid from people who want to "help" in order to "save money".

I have several give the feedback that the job is awkward and that they "have" to charge me 25% on top to make it worth their while, since there is so much easy commercial work available.
The sort of RECI I would be hiring would need to worry about getting paid by me any more that I would need to worry about him making off with my copper.

GreeBo

Risteard81 wrote: »

It is illegal and unlawful. You cannot lawfully first fix it - these are still Restricted Electrical Works. The penalty is up to 15,000 Euro fine and/or three year's imprisonment.

So if we stay away from the "first-fix" term, is there an issue with a RECI connecting up wires that he hasnt run himself?

If so, how does anyone get a DB upgrade done without a whole house rewire?

Risteard81

It

GreeBo wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

It is illegal and unlawful. You cannot lawfully first fix it - these are still Restricted Electrical Works. The penalty is up to 15,000 Euro fine and/or three year's imprisonment.

So if we stay away from the "first-fix" term, is there an issue with a RECI connecting up wires that he hasnt run himself?

If so, how does anyone get a DB upgrade done without a whole house rewire?

It cannot legally be done. Replacing a distribution board is not comparable - the REC would only be certifying the replacement of the DB and not someone else's wiring.

But much of the time replacing a DB will require extra works to correct crap or ancient wiring.

GreeBo

Risteard81 wrote: »

It
It cannot legally be done. Replacing a distribution board is not comparable - the REC would only be certifying the replacement of the DB and not someone else's wiring.

But much of the time replacing a DB will require extra works to correct crap or ancient wiring.

So, by the same logic, wouldn't the REC just be certifying the DB replacement and not "my" wiring? (Assuming the PIR and any other tests pass)

/edit
Or to put it another way, how does one go about getting their existing wiring certified without a rewire?

Risteard81

No, it doesn't work that way.

Restricted Electrical Works are always a criminal offence for non-RECs to carry out. If you do what you're discussing then you will be guilty of a crime. The law is perfectly clear about this.

Also a PIR is irrelevant - this cannot be used to certify work but only to report on the condition of an existing installation.

2011

GreeBo wrote: »

Perhaps, but his post/point wasn't very clear.
So isolator for every inbuilt appliance, no big issue there.

You would think so wouldn't you :rolleyes:

Not always the case.

I'm using "first-fix" as a catch all term for me running wires and installing boxes myself.

Ultimately the circuits will all have to be fed from the DB.

I wont be touching the board for obvious reasons.

That is good, but cables will have to be brought to the DB so that circuits can be energised.

Indeed, who knows what he means, interlink cabling isn't exactly rocket science either?

I'm not clear what understanding you have of how the interlinking works, or how it should be wired, more importantly neither would a REC.

Because its ancient and the wrong gauge.

....in which case it would need to be replaced to comply with the rules as part of the 1st fix.

I meant I'm doing a standard domestic re-wire with nothing unusual other than 13amp sockets and lights.

Oven? Instantaneous shower? Two way and intermediate switching?

As above I'd expect to use 2.5TWE for sockets and 1.5TWE for lights.

You know that the earth has to be the same size as the phase and that the bare type is no longer permitted? Do you know how many rooms a socket circuit can serve? How many sockets are required for a kitchen? What appliances are best on separate circuits?

Well in my own house I'm unlikely to bodge the boxes and sit looking at them for the rest of my days, I'd say its far more likely that an inexperienced apprentice would fit them poorly?

When asked nobody is likely to bodge boxes yet it happens all the time :rolleyes:

Right, but couldn't/wouldn't you just RCD the whole circuit(s) at the board?

That would not be advisable.

I'm assuming the RECI wouldnt just be taking my word for what I had dont and would test it...isnt that the point of a PIR?

No, that is not the point of a PIR. There is no way of testing that can guarantee that a first fix has been done properly.

sorry, so you are saying its illegal?

Completely.

Seems like that would have been the salient point to start out with in your reply!

Sorry, I assumed that you knew as it crops up here all the time....

Other than not believing that I can fit a box correctly or read the regs on what cable to use, what do you think I cant "do properly"?

Maybe you can, but if I was a REC would I bet my reputation on it? Not a chance.

Are you likely to be familiar enough with the rules? I very much doubt it. The best you could hope for is that a REC allows you to labour for him / her.

The sort of RECI I would be hiring would need to worry about getting paid by me any more that I would need to worry about him making off with my copper.

That does not really inspire confidence to be honest, you are just a random guy that would be perceived by many REC's as a higher risk of not paying. For the record: I am not suggesting that you are dishonest.

I remember a customer supplying me with sockets of questionable quality insisting on a large discount that amounted to far more than the higher quality sockets I would have installed. They also wanted me to move a light three times but they only wanted to pay for it once. Some people just don't like parting with money that they owe. REC's try to spot these people and you are waving a big red flag.

REC's want jobs with juicy extras that are wired in the way that suits them where they have 100% confidence in the 1st fix. Regardless of how good you are (or think you are) your instance that you can wire as well as a professional are unlikely to be convincing.

Qelres.

Risteard81 wrote: »

It is illegal and unlawful.

Is there a fine for each or are they the same thing?

keithdub

Most people wont put their name to anyone else's work. Maybe offer to lift the boards up chase the walls and help with the donky work. I can see wht they might want to charge extra it's a risk taking your word.

TheChizler

Risteard81 wrote: »

No, it doesn't work that way.

Restricted Electrical Works are always a criminal offence for non-RECs to carry out. If you do what you're discussing then you will be guilty of a crime. The law is perfectly clear about this.

Also a PIR is irrelevant - this cannot be used to certify work but only to report on the condition of an existing installation.

Does that imply it's not possible to get an existing installation certified so?

GreeBo

keithdub wrote: »

Most people wont put their name to anyone else's work. Maybe offer to lift the boards up chase the walls and help with the donky work. I can see wht they might want to charge extra it's a risk taking your word.

Sorry, to clarify, the 25% extra was to do all the work themselves, hence why I'm trying to run the cabling myself.

Risteard81 wrote: »

No, it doesn't work that way.

Restricted Electrical Works are always a criminal offence for non-RECs to carry out. If you do what you're discussing then you will be guilty of a crime. The law is perfectly clear about this.

Also a PIR is irrelevant - this cannot be used to certify work but only to report on the condition of an existing installation.

I understand that wiring is not to be carried out, I'm not talking about wiring, I'm talking about running wires.
Is there not a difference under the rules/law?

2011 wrote: »

Ultimately the circuits will all have to be fed from the DB.

That is good, but cables will have to be brought to the DB so that circuits can be energised.

Yep, all of which the REC would do.
Again, I'm purely talking about running cables, I wont be terminating or connecting anything.

2011 wrote: »

....in which case it would need to be replaced to comply with the rules as part of the 1st fix.

Forget about the term "first-fix", I'm solely running cables. The REC would be doing the main bonding, replacing the DB and connecting it up.

2011 wrote: »

Oven? Instantaneous shower? Two way and intermediate switching?

Yes, Yes and only two-way.

2011 wrote: »

You know that the earth has to be the same size as the phase and that the bare type is no longer permitted? Do you know how many rooms a socket circuit can serve? How many sockets are required for a kitchen? What appliances are best on separate circuits?

Yes I do. In fact I doubt I'd be able to source TWE with bare, smaller gauge earth (other than the red & black I currently have running through my house!)

I likey would be running a at least 2 ring mains downstairs, 1 upstairs and separate for the kitchen and garage.
The number of sockets would surely depend on the gauge and the RCBO rating at the board?
I'd have 8 sockets in the kitchen, but I'd be more concerned with over loading a system rather than not having enough.
Appliances on separate circuits I'd assume would depend on the rating of the appliance, for example I would always have my oven and hob on separate circuits as I will likely switch from gas to an induction hob in the future.

2011 wrote: »

When asked nobody is likely to bodge boxes yet it happens all the time :rolleyes:

Would you expect to do a better job yourself on your own house or someone elses?
In my experience unless I am paying exorbitant amounts, I get a better finish when I do jobs in my house myself.

2011 wrote: »

That would not be advisable.

i've seen it mentioned, why is that? (assuming you have a separate lighting circuit for the bathrooms and not just RCD all the lights, you dont want the whole house plunged into darkness)

2011 wrote: »

No, that is not the point of a PIR. There is no way of testing that can guarantee that a first fix has been done properly.

So you buy a house tomorrow, how do you determine if the wiring is safe or not? Just pray?

2011 wrote: »

Completely.



Sorry, I assumed that you knew as it crops up here all the time....

I know wiring (other than basic like for like replacements) is illegal, but how is running cables to be connected by a REC illegal?

2011 wrote: »

That does not really inspire confidence to be honest, you are just a random guy that would be perceived by many REC's as a higher risk of not paying. For the record: I am not suggesting that you are dishonest.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one I'd afraid, I'm 100% confident that no one would be in any doubt about my willingness or ability to pay for work done.

2011

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, the 25% extra was to do all the work themselves, hence why I'm trying to run the cabling myself.

It is still illegal.

I understand that wiring is not to be carried out, I'm not talking about wiring, I'm talking about running wires.
Is there not a difference under the rules/law?

I do not make the laws. This is illegal. If you don’t believe me ring the CRU.

Again, I'm purely talking about running cables, I wont be terminating or connecting anything.

Still illegal.

Forget about the term "first-fix", I'm solely running cables. The REC would be doing the main bonding, replacing the DB and connecting it up.

There is only so many ways I can say this, that is illegal.

Yes, Yes and only two-way.

What cable sizes, heat sized loads and how long are the cable runs?

Yes I do. In fact I doubt I'd be able to source TWE with bare, smaller gauge earth (other than the red & black I currently have running through my house!)

Good, but there is plenty of blue and brown still available.

I likey would be running a at least 2 ring mains downstairs.

That does not comply with the rules.

1 upstairs and separate for the kitchen and garage.

Again that does not comply with the rules.

The number of sockets would surely depend on the gauge and the RCBO rating at the board?

As well as several other factors that you seem unaware of.

I'd have 8 sockets in the kitchen, but I'd be more concerned with over loading a system rather than not having enough.

You don’t seem to be dealing with this concern properly.

Appliances on separate circuits I'd assume would depend on the rating of the appliance, for example I would always have my oven and hob on separate circuits as I will likely switch from gas to an induction hob in the future.

Nothing wrong with that.

Would you expect to do a better job yourself on your own house or someone elses?

Same standard or better in someone else’s. That is what professionals do.

In my experience unless I am paying exorbitant amounts, I get a better finish when I do jobs in my house myself.

It is just that sort of remake that will put RECs off dealing with you.

A really good REC once told me “There are two things you should know about me. One I am very good at what I do. Two, I am not cheap!”. In my many years of experience I have found the same applies to all good RECs bar none.

i've seen it mentioned, why is that? (assuming you have a separate lighting circuit for the bathrooms and not just RCD all the lights, you dont want the whole house plunged into darkness)

Dedicated RCBO means losses are limited in the event of a trip, far safer.

So you buy a house tomorrow, how do you determine if the wiring is safe or not? Just pray

No. You pay professionals for a professional job and test what can be tested to mitigate the risk. What you don’t do is put unfounded faith I. What testing can accomplish.

I know wiring (other than basic like for like replacements) is illegal, but how is running cables to be connected by a REC illegal?

Because it does not fall under the definition of “minor electrical works”.

We will have to agree to disagree on that one I'd afraid, I'm 100% confident that no one would be in any doubt about my willingness or ability to pay for work done.

Well you have certainly haven’t convinced me 100% and I am someone

TheChizler

So running a cable through your house counts as electrical work even if both ends are disconnected? Not arguing it or anything but just as an academic question, when does that law kick in? How is it different to running pipes or laying a floor? You can run data cables yourself no problem, so is it the guage of the cable that determines major work? If so what guage? Is it the composition? Would that mean it's illegal to use 10sq as data cable if you happened to have a bunch of it lying around?

I know I'm being awkward but it's a common question on here as to what counts as major work, it's far from clear. I too would have thought you could do the grunt work of chasing and running cable in advance of a RECI finishing it off, not that you'd find a RECI who'd go along with it mind.

Risteard81

TheChizler wrote: »

So running a cable through your house counts as electrical work even if both ends are disconnected? Not arguing it or anything but just as an academic question, when does that law kick in? How is it different to running pipes or laying a floor? You can run data cables yourself no problem, so is it the guage of the cable that determines major work? If so what guage? Is it the composition? Would that mean it's illegal to use 10sq as data cable if you happened to have a bunch of it lying around?

I know I'm being awkward but it's a common question on here as to what counts as major work, it's far from clear. I too would have thought you could do the grunt work of chasing and running cable in advance of a RECI finishing it off, not that you'd find a RECI who'd go along with it mind.

If you do that then two things will happen as a result:

A) You will go to jail.
The REC will face disciplinary action from RECI and become a non-REC.

TheChizler

Risteard81 wrote: »

If you do that then two things will happen as a result:

A) You will go to jail.
The REC will face disciplinary action from RECI and become a non-REC.

I'm not proposing doing anything (also how often do people get jail time for carrying out make work in their own home? But that's neither here nor there). I'm asking, academically, at what stage does laying a disconnected piece of cable in someone's home become illegal? What are the parameters? Is it the properties of the cable and the location, or the intent of the person doing the work, or both?

2011

TheChizler wrote: »

So running a cable through your house counts as electrical work even if both ends are disconnected?

Any domestic electrical work that does not meet the definition of minor works is an illegal act. Clearly that applies to first fixing.

when does that law kick in?

When you commit an illegal act.

How is it different to running pipes or laying a floor?

Clearly they are not electrical work so very different.

I know I'm being awkward but it's a common question on here as to what counts as major work

All you have to do is read the SI. I emailed the CER about this, you can read the email and response in the forum charter sticky for further clarity.

2011

TheChizler wrote: »

also how often do people get jail time for carrying out make work in their own home?

Rare I would think.

at what stage does laying a disconnected piece of cable in someone's home become illegal?

I’m no legal expert but I would think that once you start installing the cable it you are doing something illegal. The fact that the cable is dead changes nothing, the fact remains that this is restricted electrical work. You can disagree with it as I do but that is the law.

What are the parameters?

As per my last post. Electrical work that is not minor works in a domestic installation.

Is it the properties of the cable and the location, or the intent of the person doing the work, or both?

See above.

TheChizler

2011 wrote: »

Any domestic electrical work that does not meet the definition of minor works is an illegal act. Clearly that applies to first fixing.

Yes but I'm wondering what makes something electrical work, say if a cable isn't connected how could that be electrical work? Leaving a cable lying on the floor clearly isn't electrical work, but moving the same cable, still unconnected, two inches under the floor would be? Maybe it's obvious to you but I just can't understand the demarcation.