Landlord Rights Ending a Tenancy

egg102530

Hi - I would very much appreciate some opinions on the below scenario. I am a landlord with a rental property being rented out until I return to Ireland to move into it.

Background as follows:
12 month fixed term tenancy agreement started in Feb 2018.

In Feb 2019 the tenants signed an addendum to this agreement extending the fixed term by a further 12 months to Feb 2020. (I am not sure how valid or relevant this addendum is under the Part 4 tenancy obligations nor do I think its relevant to my question but including for completeness).

I (the landlord) am returning to Ireland in 8 weeks with a baby in tow and keen to move into my house. I fully meet the conditions required to do this in that I plan to use the property for personal use indefinitely and therefore qualify to break the part 4 tenancy agreement.

My issue is on notice periods however. From looking on RTB.ie and also citizens advice it appears I need to give my tenants 120 days notice (as tenancy is between 1 and 3 years) to end the tenancy which presents me a massive logistic problem in finding temporary accommodation to move into while the notice period runs down.

I am considering offering my tenants some kind of 'compensation' if they were to feel the need to move out prior to the 120 days but given how tricky it is to find accommodation in Cork I am not sure they will take that option.

Before I serve notice, I was hoping to get some views as to whether or not my situation is indeed as black and white as I think it is or do I have any other options?

TheChizler

If you extended the fixed term lease without a break clause there's not much you can do to get them out before the middle of next year, apart from pretty much begging and coming to a mutual agreement.

alias no.9

egg102530 wrote: »

Hi - I would very much appreciate some opinions on the below scenario. I am a landlord with a rental property being rented out until I return to Ireland to move into it.

Background as follows:
12 month fixed term tenancy agreement started in Feb 2018.

In Feb 2019 the tenants signed an addendum to this agreement extending the fixed term by a further 12 months to Feb 2020. (I am not sure how valid or relevant this addendum is under the Part 4 tenancy obligations nor do I think its relevant to my question but including for completeness).

I (the landlord) am returning to Ireland in 8 weeks with a baby in tow and keen to move into my house. I fully meet the conditions required to do this in that I plan to use the property for personal use indefinitely and therefore qualify to break the part 4 tenancy agreement.

My issue is on notice periods however. From looking on RTB.ie and also citizens advice it appears I need to give my tenants 120 days notice (as tenancy is between 1 and 3 years) to end the tenancy which presents me a massive logistic problem in finding temporary accommodation to move into while the notice period runs down.

I am considering offering my tenants some kind of 'compensation' if they were to feel the need to move out prior to the 120 days but given how tricky it is to find accommodation in Cork I am not sure they will take that option.

Before I serve notice, I was hoping to get some views as to whether or not my situation is indeed as black and white as I think it is or do I have any other options?

Sounds like the tenants are entitled to stay until the end of their fixed term unless you have something in the lease that allows you to terminate.

Rows Grower

egg102530 wrote: »

Hi - I would very much appreciate some opinions on the below scenario. I am a landlord with a rental property being rented out until I return to Ireland to move into it.

Background as follows:
12 month fixed term tenancy agreement started in Feb 2018.

In Feb 2019 the tenants signed an addendum to this agreement extending the fixed term by a further 12 months to Feb 2020. (I am not sure how valid or relevant this addendum is under the Part 4 tenancy obligations nor do I think its relevant to my question but including for completeness).

I (the landlord) am returning to Ireland in 8 weeks with a baby in tow and keen to move into my house. I fully meet the conditions required to do this in that I plan to use the property for personal use indefinitely and therefore qualify to break the part 4 tenancy agreement.

My issue is on notice periods however. From looking on RTB.ie and also citizens advice it appears I need to give my tenants 120 days notice (as tenancy is between 1 and 3 years) to end the tenancy which presents me a massive logistic problem in finding temporary accommodation to move into while the notice period runs down.

I am considering offering my tenants some kind of 'compensation' if they were to feel the need to move out prior to the 120 days but given how tricky it is to find accommodation in Cork I am not sure they will take that option.

Before I serve notice, I was hoping to get some views as to whether or not my situation is indeed as black and white as I think it is or do I have any other options?

Write the notice tonight and deliver it tomorrow.

You can always retract the notice afterwards if it suits everyone but you can't backdate it.

TheChizler

Rows Grower wrote: »

Write the notice tonight and deliver it tomorrow.

You can always retract the notice afterwards if it suits everyone but you can't backdate it.

And be immediately rejected by the RTB, unless there was some break clause in the agreement. Unlikely as they're would be no benefit to the tenant in signing that.

antoinolachtnai

Rows Grower wrote: »

Write the notice tonight and deliver it tomorrow.

You can always retract the notice afterwards if it suits everyone but you can't backdate it.

You can’t really expect them to leave even with 120 days notice if they have (or of they feel they have) a fixed term lease until February.

The handiest thing to do might well be to offer them a few thousand euros (say three months rent) if they can move out in eight weeks. It will be easier for them to find permanent accommodation than it will be for you to find temporary accommodation. It will also be tax advantageous for you.

Rows Grower

TheChizler wrote: »

And be immediately rejected by the RTB, unless there was some break clause in the agreement. Unlikely as they're would be no benefit to the tenant in signing that.

What are you on about?

Rows Grower

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can’t really expect them to leave even with 120 days notice if they have (or of they feel they have) a fixed term lease until February.

The handiest thing to do might well be to offer them a few thousand euros (say three months rent) if they can move out in eight weeks. It will be easier for them to find permanent accommodation than it will be for you to find temporary accommodation. It will also be tax advantageous for you.

I laughed out loud when I read this.

Dav010

Rows Grower wrote: »

What are you on about?

Under Part 4 tenancy legislation, the LL can terminate the lease giving correct notice, if they need the property for them self.

But if the tenant has a signed term lease, in this case it appears they do until Feb 2020, then the LL cannot serve notice until the term of the lease has expired. The RTB would side with the tenant if notice was served in the way you advised.

Stark

Rows Grower wrote:

I laughed out loud when I read this.

At what part? The bit about paying them a few thousand euro might be a bit extreme but he's correct on the notice period piece. Tenants have a lot of rights under the legislation that was introduced quite recently and you can't just turf someone out with a few weeks notice anymore.

Rows Grower

Stark wrote: »

At what part? The bit about paying them a few thousand euro might be a bit extreme but he's correct on the notice period piece. Tenants have a lot of rights under the legislation that was introduced quite recently and you can't just turf someone out with a few weeks notice anymore.

All of it.

There's a lot more than a few weeks in 120 days, do the maths.

TheChizler

Rows Grower wrote: »

All of it.

There's a lot more than a few weeks in 120 days, do the maths.

How do you propose they give valid notice when they have 5 months left in the fixed term? Under the act you can't even give notice until the fixed term has expired, never mind breaking a legal contract between the landlord and tenant.

Rows Grower

TheChizler wrote: »

How do you propose they give valid notice when they have 5 months left in the fixed term? Under the act you can't even give notice until the fixed term has expired, never mind breaking a legal contract between the landlord and tenant.

In writing.

Dav010

Rows Grower wrote: »

In writing.

With crayons?

The op is looking for advice. A term lease means notice can’t be served until term has expired. Do you understand the differences between a Part 4 and term contract tenancy?

TheChizler

Rows Grower wrote: »

In writing.

And the other half a dozen conditions that must be fulfilled for notice to be valid, among them the requirement that no fixed term lease be in place?

Edit: for the sake of avoiding argument, here they are: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/

Also:

Did you sign a fixed term lease?
In a fixed term lease, a Notice of Termination can be served for the following 3 reasons:

There is a break clause in the lease agreement.

Both parties agree to terminating the tenancy.

The tenant breached his or her obligations and has been given reasonable time to rectify the breach, then 28 days notice is required.

Star Lord

TheChizler wrote: »

And the other half a dozen conditions that must be fulfilled for notice to be valid, among them the requirement that no fixed term lease be in place?

Edit: for the sake of avoiding argument, here they are: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/how-a-landlord-can-end-a-tenancy/

Also:

Surely notice could be served now to inform that the tenancy will end at the end of the fixed term, so that the tenants must leave by the end of the fixed term?

TheChizler

Star Lord wrote: »

Surely notice could be served now to inform that the tenancy will end at the end of the fixed term, so that the tenants must leave by the end of the fixed term?

Not allowed I'm afraid. Though I say that but right now I can't find anything backing that up apart from what I quoted above, I think it might have been a ruling or something that determined that.

Star Lord

Surely it should be possible to have a fixed term tenancy end at the end of that fixed term though?

TheChizler

Star Lord wrote: »

Surely it should be possible to have a fixed term tenancy end at the end of that fixed term though?

Yeah, it's kind of the default assumption that it will end because the tenant is on the hook for any expenses incurred, say if the landlord pays for advertising, and doesn't tell the landlord they'll be staying on. But ultimately it's up to the tenant to end at the end of the fixed term, not the landlord.

ted1

TheChizler wrote: »

And be immediately rejected by the RTB, unless there was some break clause in the agreement. Unlikely as they're would be no benefit to the tenant in signing that.

*if it goes to the RTB, if it doesn’t it can’t be rejected.

TheChizler

ted1 wrote: »

*if it goes to the RTB, if it doesn’t it can’t be rejected.

Well yeah, presuming the tenants want to stay on there no reason it wouldn't I suppose.

ted1

TheChizler wrote: »

Well yeah, presuming the tenants want to stay on there no reason it wouldn't I suppose.

Some people might realise that an owner and their kid retuning home warrants moving out.

TheChizler

ted1 wrote: »

Some people might realise that an owner and their kid retuning home warrants moving out.

And at the same time it is currently the tenant's home.

ted1

TheChizler wrote: »

And at the same time it is currently the tenant's home.

A home owner should trump a home borrower

TheChizler

ted1 wrote: »

A home owner should trump a home borrower

At this stage the landlords are legally only house owners in this situation, their current home is abroad. And generally they do trump the "borrower" (aren't we all only borrowing homes for varying durations) as a part 4 lease can be ended so they can take it back. But the OP has chosen to contract away their right to take the property back for a period of time. You can't have it both ways.

Qrt

ted1 wrote: »

A home owner should trump a home borrower

Not if there’s been a contract signed.

ted1

Qrt wrote: »

Not if there’s been a contract signed.

Tick tick the click is on, once the lease it up they are out. Personally I wouldn’t feel right keeping a family with a young child out if their house if I was renting it.

Qrt

ted1 wrote: »

Tick tick the click is on, once the lease it up they are out. Personally I wouldn’t feel right keeping a family with a young child out if their house if I was renting it.

The tenants could be in the exact same boat.

Padre_Pio

Can you even issue notice now or do you need to wait till the lease is up, then give them the required few months to move out?

egg102530

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

It seems my understanding differs from the general consensus of the group here. I was off the impression that once a part 4 comes into effect that these rights and obligations supersede any set out in my fixed term agreement, (from the website: A ‘part 4’ tenancy runs alongside a fixed term tenancy, which means that the tenant shall, after a period of six months and as in the normal course, become entitled to the provision of a ‘Part 4’ tenancy") and hence the right to end the tenancy due to needing the property myself would apply.

The responses from the forum would imply that yes the above is true but ONLY for the tenants rights. i.e. the landlord does not get any rights in terms of part 4?

The_Conductor

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Can you even issue notice now or do you need to wait till the lease is up, then give them the required few months to move out?

You informally advise the tenant now that for information purposes the lease will not be renewed on the elapse of the fixed term tenancy (you can give a reason). You advise them that formal notice will be served (on a given date) under the terms of the Residential Tenancies Act (as amended). You also advise them that should they find alternate accommodation between now (date of informal notice) and the formal notice period- that you are happy to discuss an early termination of their residency (at their discretion). Aka you are giving the current tenants a headsup to go hunting, advising them that if they wish to leave early thats fine with you- and regardless of any other factor, formal notice will be issuing on date (X) (the day after the elapse of the fixed term lease) in accordance with the provisions of the amended Residential Tenancies Act.

You should give the tenants a headsup- without giving them any pressure whatsoever to leave- that you will need the property back- and are open to discussing an early vacation of the property should this suit them.

You need to be 100% certain that you are keeping to the fullest extent possible, within the strict rules as laid out in the Act.

Also- you cannot serve notice on a tenant until the elapse of the fixed term lease- why you gave them a subsequent fixed term lease, when they had a Part IV tenancy anyway, is beyond me- there was absolutely nothing in it for you- you simply gave them additional rights they did not have under the Act.