rent a room question

tom1ie

hi guys
I've a garage attached to my house that i plan on renovating.
The garage may end up having its own front door with no entrance into the main dwelling(option a), or it may have an entrance into it via a door from the main dwelling (option b).
Can i avail of the 14k tax free allowance in either scenarios?
I have read conflicting reports that you will or won't have to register with the rtb, does anyone know what the definitive law is on this?
from the rtb website:
"The RTB remit does not extend to:
the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property)."
according to the extract i have above option a is out, but does a shared door constitute "the same self contained property"?
thanks guys

SozBbz

tom1ie wrote: »

hi guys
I've a garage attached to my house that i plan on renovating.
The garage may end up having its own front door with no entrance into the main dwelling(option a), or it may have an entrance into it via a door from the main dwelling (option b).
Can i avail of the 14k tax free allowance in either scenarios?
I have read conflicting reports that you will or won't have to register with the rtb, does anyone know what the definitive law is on this?
from the rtb website:
"The RTB remit does not extend to:
the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property)."
according to the extract i have above option a is out, but does a shared door constitute "the same self contained property"?
thanks guys

I don't think it can count as rent a room if theres a separate entrance

Supposing you set up in such away as to be compliant with the rent a room scheme, then the RTB doesn't apply. Its the residential tenancies board - rent a room creates a licensee relationship, not a tenant relationship.

TheChizler

Wasn't the consensus here before that if there was a connecting door between the rooms it couldn't be considered exclusive access so was a licensee situation by default?

punisher5112

Planning would be a serious issue....

If the room is renovated to correct standard then you could rent it out but it must be part of the existing dwelling as in no separate entrance and not joining the rest....

You can earn €14k tax free.

tom1ie

If I have a connecting door going from the house to the garage, but the garage would have toilet, kitchen/dining room and bedroom, would this require planning?
I presume this scenario is classed as part of the dwelling, therefore does not fall under the rtb as it wouldn't be a tenancy but a lodger setup, thus allowing for the 14k tax free.
What ya reckon?

davindub

tom1ie wrote: »

If I have a connecting door going from the house to the garage, but the garage would have toilet, kitchen/dining room and bedroom, would this require planning?
I presume this scenario is classed as part of the dwelling, therefore does not fall under the rtb as it wouldn't be a tenancy but a lodger setup, thus allowing for the 14k tax free.
What ya reckon?

Rent a room and RTA exemption are not linked.

tom1ie

davindub wrote: »

Rent a room and RTA exemption are not linked.

They are if the rta decide the building is self contained. There was a ruling by an adjudicator stating the room being rented was actually a self contained building even though it was attached to a private dwelling. This made the lodger a tenant and gave all the protections that go along with it. I’ll try find the link.

Alkers

It's own entrance isn't relevant for Rent a Room relief (ok with or without) but it needs to be connected to and accessible from the main dwelling.

cruizer101

I think you could go with option A and B and get rent a room relief.
Option B means it is connected to the main dwelling and so eligible for rent a room.
Option A means the licensee can have their own entrance so doesn't have to come through the house.
You could then lock the connecting door from both sides so it is in effect a self contained unit but technically is still part of the main dwelling.

Caveat: I'm not a legal expert so don't take this as gospel but if you could do it would probably be best of both world for you.

tom1ie

I will contact the Rtb and citizens advice before I consider my options Thanks so much for all the information guys really appreciate it.

tom1ie

So just an update on this, the rtb say “they don’t know and it’s a grey area”
However I got the opinion of the guy on the line who asked his supervisor who used the analogy of an apartment block.
If my garage has enough facilities so that the lodger doesn’t have to use some of my facilities, even though he would have had to come through my front door to access his “room” then the setup is deemed like an apartment (without your own door) and the lodger becomes a tenant.
What’s more is I would be charged a late fee in that case as I didn’t setup with the rtb prior to taking on what I thought was a lodger but turned out to be a tenant!
I will double check this with citizens advice, but again this seems to be just an opinion from the rtb.
I’ll probably have to check with eoghan Murphy at this rate!

davindub

tom1ie wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

Rent a room and RTA exemption are not linked.

They are if the rta decide the building is self contained. There was a ruling by an adjudicator stating the room being rented was actually a self contained building even though it was attached to a private dwelling. This made the lodger a tenant and gave all the protections that go along with it. I’ll try find the link.

The two legislations are distinct from each other with slightly different requirements. What you have referred to above is the RTA.

davindub

tom1ie wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

Rent a room and RTA exemption are not linked.

They are if the rta decide the building is self contained. There was a ruling by an adjudicator stating the room being rented was actually a self contained building even though it was attached to a private dwelling. This made the lodger a tenant and gave all the protections that go along with it. I’ll try find the link.

The two legislations are distinct from each other with slightly different requirements. What you have referred to above is the RTA.

tom1ie

davindub wrote: »

The two legislations are distinct from each other with slightly different requirements. What you have referred to above is the RTA.

Yes but the rta are saying in my case it’s a self contained apartment and I would have a tenant not a lodger, so it would fall under their jurisdiction

Cuddlesworth

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but the rta are saying in my case it’s a self contained apartment and I would have a tenant not a lodger, so it would fall under their jurisdiction

Yep, Revenue and other bodys make up their own rules and they overlap in some cases.

There is court ruling where a self contained granny flat was considered a separate dwelling and this would be the case for both planning and tenancy legislation.

Put or keep a heavy door into the main house and lock it permanently. Not worth the hassle otherwise coming under a full lease agreement.

tom1ie

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Yep, Revenue and other bodys make up their own rules and they overlap in some cases.

There is court ruling where a self contained granny flat was considered a separate dwelling and this would be the case for both planning and tenancy legislation.

Put or keep a heavy door into the main house and lock it permanently. Not worth the hassle otherwise coming under a full lease agreement.

Yes that’s what I was alluding to earlier. An adjudicator in the wrc decided this, I just can’t find the link.
What I want is a paragraph in black and white from an official piece of legislation telling me a heavy door between the main house and rent a room is allowed.
I firmly want to stay on the lodger side as opposed to the mess that is the tenancy side.
Otherwise it’s not worth my while putting money into renovating the garage and then being liable for some bull**** landlord crime.

Cuddlesworth

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes that’s what I was alluding to earlier. An adjudicator in the wrc decided this, I just can’t find the link.
What I want is a paragraph in black and white from an official piece of legislation telling me a heavy door between the main house and rent a room is allowed.
I firmly want to stay on the lodger side as opposed to the mess that is the tenancy side.
Otherwise it’s not worth my while putting money into renovating the garage and then being liable for some bull**** landlord crime.

It's already there in planning law.

You disconnect it from the house, meaning you have to leave your house to access it, its a seperate dwelling and the RTB is the start of your problems. You keep it connected, meaning you "can" access it internally, it's not a seperate dwelling.

RTB won't tell you squat and can always be wrong depending on who you are talking to.

tom1ie

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

It's already there in planning law.

You disconnect it from the house, meaning you have to leave your house to access it, its a seperate dwelling and the RTB is the start of your problems. You keep it connected, meaning you "can" access it internally, it's not a seperate dwelling.

RTB won't tell you squat and can always be wrong depending on who you are talking to.

Yes but rtb told me today if the lodger doesn’t have to use any of the facilities in my house, even if he/she access the room via the main house, the rtb class this as a self contained property, a la an apartment setup that has one main door for everyone and then separate doors for each individual unit and thus the lodger is in fact a tenant.
So is my best bet to make sure there are no kitchen facilities put into the garage so that they have to use the main house for cooking therefore remaining a lodger.

davindub

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but the rta are saying in my case it’s a self contained apartment and I would have a tenant not a lodger, so it would fall under their jurisdiction

I know what you mean, but it's not going to be always correct that if the RTA doesn't apply, rent a room relief does apply. It's better to consider each of them separately, Couple of examples below:

House where the spouse/ child/ parent of the LL resides:
- Does not come under the RTA
- Rent a room relief does not apply


If you have an adjacent apartment to a house:
- Does come under RTA
- Part 4 of RTA may not apply (if originally part of the landlords house & LL opts out)
- Rent a room relief will not apply.

danoriordan1402

I have a similar set up with a " 3 room granny flat" incorporated into the house. It has its own entrance, but also has a door from my part of the house into the granny flat. This door however looks like a door from my side , opposite side has no handles and a full height mirror in front so its not visible really from the flat. All utilities are included in rent as they couldn't be feasibly split. I think I am pretty border line for rent a room on reading the above......

tom1ie

So I rand citizens advice and got a very helpful guy who has dealt with this on numerous occasions.
He said it states on the revenue website that self contained units are allowed under the rent a room scheme once said unit is connected to the house. He went further by saying this does NOT mean you need a connecting door from house to unit merely that the unit must share a wall. When I stated about rtb saying the unit can’t have a separate entranace, he stated, no, your house has two entrances as the unit Is part of your house as per revenue rules.
I have emailed the minister to get some more clarification and to highlight the rtb overstepping their remit.

Cuddlesworth

Revenue make their own rules, the RTB have to follow the RTA legislation.

5.—(1) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling where the conditions specified in subsection (2) are satisfied if the landlord of the dwelling opts, in accordance with subsection (3), for this Part not to apply to it.

(2) Those conditions are—

(a) the dwelling concerned is one of 2 dwellings within a building,

(b) that building, as originally constructed, comprised a single dwelling, and

(c) the landlord resides in the other dwelling.

(3) A landlord's opting as mentioned in subsection (1) shall be signified in writing in a notice served by him or her on the tenant before the commencement of the tenancy.

‘‘dwelling’’ means, subject to subsection (2), a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit .....‘‘self-contained residential unit’’ includes the form of accommo-
dation commonly known as ‘‘bedsit’’ accommodation;

I read that as simply, if you create a second dwelling inside your home, give them something that clearly states they are licensee at the beginning of the tenancy.

tom1ie

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Revenue make their own rules, the RTB have to follow the RTA legislation.

5.—(1) This Part does not apply to a tenancy of a dwelling where the conditions specified in subsection (2) are satisfied if the landlord of the dwelling opts, in accordance with subsection (3), for this Part not to apply to it.

(2) Those conditions are—

(a) the dwelling concerned is one of 2 dwellings within a building,

(b) that building, as originally constructed, comprised a single dwelling, and

(c) the landlord resides in the other dwelling.

(3) A landlord's opting as mentioned in subsection (1) shall be signified in writing in a notice served by him or her on the tenant before the commencement of the tenancy.

‘‘dwelling’’ means, subject to subsection (2), a property let for rent or valuable consideration as a self-contained residential unit .....‘‘self-contained residential unit’’ includes the form of accommo-
dation commonly known as ‘‘bedsit’’ accommodation;

I read that as simply, if you create a second dwelling inside your home, give them something that clearly states they are licensee at the beginning of the tenancy.

Yeah that makes sense to me alright. The thing is you’d think the rtb would be well aware of where their limitations are? Maybe I’m being a bit idealistic here.

landlord2020

Renting out a room in your home - citizensinformation.ie

If you rent out a room (or rooms) in your home to private tenants, the rental income you earn will be exempt from income tax, provided this income does not exceed a certain limit in a tax year. This is called the rent-a-room relief. A self-contained unit, such as a basement flat or a converted garage attached to your home, can qualify for this relief.

….

Self-contained units
If you rent out a self-contained unit in your home, such as a converted garage attached to your home or a basement flat, the rights and obligations under residential tenancies legislation apply to you. For example, you are obliged to register the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB), provide a rent book to the tenant and ensure that the accommodation provided meets minimum physical standards.
The residential tenancies legislation provides for security of tenure for tenants. These provisions are in Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. However, if the self-contained flat or apartment was originally part of the main house, you can choose to opt out of these provisions. This option is available under Section 25 of the Act. You must give the tenant notice in writing, before the start of the tenancy, if you wish to take this option.

tom1ie

landlord2020 wrote: »

Renting out a room in your home - citizensinformation.ie

If you rent out a room (or rooms) in your home to private tenants, the rental income you earn will be exempt from income tax, provided this income does not exceed a certain limit in a tax year. This is called the rent-a-room relief. A self-contained unit, such as a basement flat or a converted garage attached to your home, can qualify for this relief.

….

Self-contained units
If you rent out a self-contained unit in your home, such as a converted garage attached to your home or a basement flat, the rights and obligations under residential tenancies legislation apply to you. For example, you are obliged to register the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB), provide a rent book to the tenant and ensure that the accommodation provided meets minimum physical standards.
The residential tenancies legislation provides for security of tenure for tenants. These provisions are in Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. However, if the self-contained flat or apartment was originally part of the main house, you can choose to opt out of these provisions. This option is available under Section 25 of the Act. You must give the tenant notice in writing, before the start of the tenancy, if you wish to take this option.

Indeed. When I rang the rtb to enquire they weren’t aware of this passage in legislation.

Claw Hammer

tom1ie wrote: »

Indeed. When I rang the rtb to enquire they weren’t aware of this passage in legislation.

It only applies to the notice period. In every other respect the occupant is a tenant with the same rights as any other tenant. the revenue may accept the income qualifies under rent a room but dispute resolution is under the RTB. The tenancy has to be registered and the letting must meet the minimum standards for rented dwellings. most people just go for a licence deal and don't create a second dwelling.

Lux23

I wouldn't take the word of Citzen's Advice - speak to a lawyer.

tom1ie

Claw Hammer wrote: »

tom1ie wrote: »

Indeed. When I rang the rtb to enquire they weren’t aware of this passage in legislation.

It only applies to the notice period. In every other respect the occupant is a tenant with the same rights as any other tenant. the revenue may accept the income qualifies under rent a room but dispute resolution is under the RTB. The tenancy has to be registered and the letting must meet the minimum standards for rented dwellings. most people just go for a licence deal and don't create a second dwelling.

I'm not creating a second dwelling though. Therefore it's not a tenancy it's a licence deal and the person is a lodger and not a tenant.

tom1ie

Lux23 wrote: »

I wouldn't take the word of Citzen's Advice - speak to a lawyer.

I think this might be the best bet. But I suppose my lawyer could tell me one thing and an adjudicator could have a different interpretation.
I've emailed the housing minister to try and highlight this grey area and get some sort of clear cut answer.

tom1ie

So my email has now gone to
“The Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, Mr. Paschal Donohoe T.D”
To be answered.
I thought this would have been a housing issue?

Caranica

tom1ie wrote: »

So my email has now gone to
“The Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, Mr. Paschal Donohoe T.D”
To be answered.
I thought this would have been a housing issue?

No, rent a room is a Revenue relief. Nothing to do with Department of housing