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rent a room question

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    #62
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    ?[/QUOTE

    Ah I see you’ve made it so much clearer for me with your deeply incisive post. :rolleyes:

    My “problem” is the state body that run the rent a room scheme, make no mention that you should cross reference the status of the agreement you have with the person staying in your house, with the rtb, when they explicitly state:
    Why should they? they set out their interpretatio of the Fiace Act which governs the "rent a room" scheme. they do not say that if the rent a room scheme applies then there is a licence created nor do they say that for the rent a room scheme to apply the occupant must be a licencee. they are construing the Finance Act only.
    “The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.”
    tom1ie wrote: »
    Now, the citizens advice clearly state that the rtb do not need to be involved in a rent a room scheme as it falls under a license agreement thus making the person renting from the homeowner a lodger.
    This is what citizens advice says. It says that the occupants of a self contained unit are to be treated as tenants. There is an opt out from the Security of tenure provisions only. That means you only have to give the occupants 4 weeks notice to quit. For all other purposes they are tenants with the same rights as all others.

    "Self-contained units
    If you rent out a self-contained unit in your home, such as a converted garage attached to your home or a basement flat, the rights and obligations under residential tenancies legislation apply to you. For example, you are obliged to register the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB), provide a rent book to the tenant and ensure that the accommodation provided meets minimum physical standards.

    The residential tenancies legislation provides for security of tenure for tenants. These provisions are in Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. However, if the self-contained flat or apartment was originally part of the main house, you can choose to opt out of these provisions. This option is available under Section 25 of the Act. You must give the tenant notice in writing, before the start of the tenancy, if you wish to take this option."

    [/QUOTE]
    tom1ie wrote: »
    Therefore if one state body are telling you the rtb don’t need to be involved in rent a room and another state body are telling you self contained units are allowed under the rent a room scheme, you can logically come to the opinion the rtb don’t need to be involved.
    One state body is simply telling you that you can qualify for tax relief under a particular arrangement. Another tells you that the Residential tenancies Act provisions apply to that arrangement.
    No state body has told you that if you obtain tax relief you are out of the RTB. The citizens Advice, say as much.


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    #63
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    “The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.”

    This is what citizens advice says. It says that the occupants of a self contained unit are to be treated as tenants. There is an opt out from the Security of tenure provisions only. That means you only have to give the occupants 4 weeks notice to quit. For all other purposes they are tenants with the same rights as all others.

    "Self-contained units
    If you rent out a self-contained unit in your home, such as a converted garage attached to your home or a basement flat, the rights and obligations under residential tenancies legislation apply to you. For example, you are obliged to register the tenancy with the Residential Tenancies Board (RTB), provide a rent book to the tenant and ensure that the accommodation provided meets minimum physical standards.

    The residential tenancies legislation provides for security of tenure for tenants. These provisions are in Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. However, if the self-contained flat or apartment was originally part of the main house, you can choose to opt out of these provisions. This option is available under Section 25 of the Act. You must give the tenant notice in writing, before the start of the tenancy, if you wish to take this option."

    One state body is simply telling you that you can qualify for tax relief under a particular arrangement. Another tells you that the Residential tenancies Act provisions apply to that arrangement.
    No state body has told you that if you obtain tax relief you are out of the RTB. The citizens Advice, say as much.[/QUOTE]

    Ok. From the rtb website:

    The RTB remit does not extend to:

    tenancies in local authority housing or under shared ownership lease arrangements.
    holiday letting agreements.
    the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
    if a tenant lives with the spouse, civil partner, parent or child of the landlord and there is no written letting agreement in place.
    if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service).

    Now. From the revenue website:

    Self-contained unit:
    The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.

    If this unit is not attached to the property it cannot qualify for the relief.

    So therefore if I “share” the converted garage, by cooking dinner in there once a week or so, I am meeting both criteria. I’m sharing the self contained unit as per rtb rules, and the self contained unit is a converted garage as per revenue rules.


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    #64
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    tom1ie wrote: »
    One state body is simply telling you that you can qualify for tax relief under a particular arrangement. Another tells you that the Residential tenancies Act provisions apply to that arrangement.
    No state body has told you that if you obtain tax relief you are out of the RTB. The citizens Advice, say as much.

    Ok. From the rtb website:

    The RTB remit does not extend to:

    tenancies in local authority housing or under shared ownership lease arrangements.
    holiday letting agreements.
    the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
    if a tenant lives with the spouse, civil partner, parent or child of the landlord and there is no written letting agreement in place.
    if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service).

    Now. From the revenue website:

    Self-contained unit:
    The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.

    If this unit is not attached to the property it cannot qualify for the relief.

    So therefore if I “share” the converted garage, by cooking dinner in there once a week or so, I am meeting both criteria. I’m sharing the self contained unit as per rtb rules, and the self contained unit is a converted garage as per revenue rules.[/QUOTE]
    The RTB looks at how the situation is operating on the ground. It is difficult to predict until a dispute starts and the evidence is given. It seems to me that there is no way it can be argued that cooking dinner once a week means you are residing in the same dwelling. If you are not residing in the same dwelling you are going to have a high threshold to establish a licence agreement. You may also find yourself in a B&B situation in an attempt to create a licence and you lose the tax relief.
    People have ended up in court and been heavily fined after relying on "licence agreements" to avid registering tenancies.
    What would be the most sensible thing to do if you want an income would be to put in a bedroom, bathroom and sitting room where the garage is. Allow the occupants to use your kitchen and then get weekday only occupants. You will get your tax free income with the minimum contact with your lodgers.


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    #65
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Ok. From the rtb website:

    The RTB remit does not extend to:

    tenancies in local authority housing or under shared ownership lease arrangements.
    holiday letting agreements.
    the Rent a Room scheme (where the landlord and the tenant share the same self contained property).
    if a tenant lives with the spouse, civil partner, parent or child of the landlord and there is no written letting agreement in place.
    if the property has been let through AirBNB (an online residential accommodation booking service).

    Now. From the revenue website:

    Self-contained unit:
    The rented room or rooms can be a self-contained unit within the house, such as a basement flat or a converted garage.

    If this unit is not attached to the property it cannot qualify for the relief.

    So therefore if I “share” the converted garage, by cooking dinner in there once a week or so, I am meeting both criteria. I’m sharing the self contained unit as per rtb rules, and the self contained unit is a converted garage as per revenue rules.
    The RTB looks at how the situation is operating on the ground. It is difficult to predict until a dispute starts and the evidence is given. It seems to me that there is no way it can be argued that cooking dinner once a week means you are residing in the same dwelling. If you are not residing in the same dwelling you are going to have a high threshold to establish a licence agreement. You may also find yourself in a B&B situation in an attempt to create a licence and you lose the tax relief.
    People have ended up in court and been heavily fined after relying on "licence agreements" to avid registering tenancies.
    What would be the most sensible thing to do if you want an income would be to put in a bedroom, bathroom and sitting room where the garage is. Allow the occupants to use your kitchen and then get weekday only occupants. You will get your tax free income with the minimum contact with your lodgers.[/QUOTE]

    I have considered this also, but is there any scenario where the rtb decide they have a case here?
    Is the weekday lodger having to use my kitchen enough to keep the rtb at bay!:pac:


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    #66
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I would think so. You are clearly both living in the same dwelling.


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    #67
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Folks, it's not necessary to quote the proceeding post when posting a reply.


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    #68
    radooo
    Registered Users Posts: 114 ✭✭radooo


    1. When claiming rent-a-room relief, do you just submit Form 12 (if paye) after each year or do you have to take additional steps with the revenue on this?

    2.Also is there a time limit - number of years you can claim rent-a-room relief or is this unlimited as long as you meet the criteria for each year?

    Thanks.


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    #69
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    Just wondering how things turned out re rtb and did you have to register, I have same dilemna, tenant in basement flat for years and I live above, didn't register with rtb as going off info to say self contained in same residence as landlord didn't need to but now seems you do and tenant won't leave even though gave 18 mths notice - can't get answer from rtb - email response says could be 15 days before I hear!


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    #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Boot him out and change the locks. First mistake was giving him more than a months notice making him think he has rights.


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    #71
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    Thing is that tenant does have rights in a self contained flat but even being generous with notice given .i.e nearly double amount required they are refusing to leave - changing locks would mean in breach of their rights even though sorely tempted. Seems a crazy situation that rtb response to emails is 15 days.


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    #72
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Trudee wrote: »
    Thing is that tenant does have rights in a self contained flat but even being generous with notice given .i.e nearly double amount required they are refusing to leave - changing locks would mean in breach of their rights even though sorely tempted. Seems a crazy situation that rtb response to emails is 15 days.

    You could have opted out of the security of tenure but not the registration.

    You shouldn't treat the RTB as an advisory service, you will either have to take a case against the tenant for overholding or convince them to leave voluntarily. If you need legal advice, a solicitor is the only advice you should be taking on board.

    I assume the Covid situation is the reason for not leaving? Will they leave when they find a new place or flat out refusing to leave?


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    #73
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    Tenant got 14 months notice originally as wanting to be fair, this turned to 18 months because of Covid 19 emergency legislation, tenant refusing flat out - says they are perfectly happy and if I want to renovate I can do it room by room or put them up in hotel, went to solicitor who said will need to register with rtb, that’s the dilemma as originally when tenant moved in there was no rtb and then 2094 act said self contained unit didn’t need registering but this changed somewhere along but as the same tenant in flat all along I wouldn’t have kept appraised of all changes to legislation- now can’t get info back from rtb for at least another 2 weeks and who knows maybe they will fine me


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Is there an internal door between the units, can you walk into his unit thigh but, do you share esb. Is there a common entrance to both buildings?

    Personally I would refuse to acknowledge that anyone living under my roof was anything but a licensee. He is living with you in your home, I’d boot him out bag and baggage and change the locks.


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    #75
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    No internal door, removed stairs into basement from where we are upstairs and blocked up so separate entrance from exterior so grey area of self contained in same home as landlord


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    #76
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Trudee wrote: »
    Tenant got 14 months notice originally as wanting to be fair, this turned to 18 months because of Covid 19 emergency legislation, tenant refusing flat out - says they are perfectly happy and if I want to renovate I can do it room by room or put them up in hotel, went to solicitor who said will need to register with rtb, that’s the dilemma as originally when tenant moved in there was no rtb and then 2094 act said self contained unit didn’t need registering but this changed somewhere along but as the same tenant in flat all along I wouldn’t have kept appraised of all changes to legislation- now can’t get info back from rtb for at least another 2 weeks and who knows maybe they will fine me

    Termination for renovation has become tougher, the tenant may have a point.

    You need to provide a cert that the renovation will be hazardous to their health for at least 3 weeks and offer the property back if re-renting within 12 months.

    But your solicitor will go through all that. Is there a reason why you cannot accommodate the tenant wishes by renovating room by room? It might be the easier option if you just want to renovate.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Trudee wrote: »
    No internal door, removed stairs into basement from where we are upstairs and blocked up so separate entrance from exterior so grey area of self contained in same home as landlord

    Hardly that gray, it's a self contained unit.


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    #78
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    When they got letter in Feb 2019 you didn't need to provide cert this law came in in June 2019 - not possible to renovate with anybody in flat - has to be completely rewired, replumbed and new bathroom - so no heat/gas for a few weeks also too much stuff i.e. furniture/clothes etc and wouldn't get anyone to work there who would take those jobs on with tenant/tenant contents


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    #79
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    The grey area is to do with whether it needs to be registered with RTB when historicallly it didn't - when tenant went into flat there was no legislation to say you need to register with RTB as no RTB and then when RTB came into existence self contained didn't have to be registered - legislation changed after 2004 - I am not in any doubt that it is a self contained flat


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    #80
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,994 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Sounds like your in hardball territory.

    Go to the RTB, register him now, go for adujdication(mediation is pretty biased against landlords since it assumes there is a common ground) and keep to your dates.

    When the "why register him now" comes up, say exactly the same thing as you posted above, wasn't a requirement originally and you didn't notice when it became so. If there is a genuine reason, its not that bad and doesn't go against you.

    If your eviction notice was valid, get the RTB to validate it. Next step is a actual court and eviction notice. Could take a long time. In the meantime, I would lay it out to your tenant, the basement will be renovated, room by room is not nor ever will be a option and the tenant does not have a say in the matter.

    Putting a stairs and door back in would save a significant amount of headache if your planning on renting it back out again.


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    #81
    Trudee
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Trudee


    Thanks, yes , think only route is rtb and hopefully they’ll come back to me within 15 days


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    #82
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Mina Victorious Void wrote: »
    Is there an internal door between the units, can you walk into his unit thigh but, do you share esb. Is there a common entrance to both buildings?

    Personally I would refuse to acknowledge that anyone living under my roof was anything but a licensee. He is living with you in your home, I’d boot him out bag and baggage and change the locks.

    You'd also be paying €1000s in fines for an illegal eviction. That might soften your bravado a bit.

    What's the roof got to do with it? If I have an apartment, then me and my neighbour share the same roof. Doesn't mean I can go into his apt and fcuk him out the door.


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    salonfire wrote: »
    You'd also be paying €1000s in fines for an illegal eviction. That might soften your bravado a bit.

    What's the roof got to do with it? If I have an apartment, then me and my neighbour share the same roof. Doesn't mean I can go into his apt and fcuk him out the door.

    That comment was based on there being an internal door, the poster confirmed there isn’t so that would changes things.


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