Elective surgery

FIFA2004

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

_Brian

I’ve seen two instances of this.

One where an employee came to me regarding their situation and we agreed a time that suited them firstly but the staffing second, they used sick leave and got full pay.

A friend booked two weeks annual leave and said nothing until they were off and produced sick certs and so were entitled to their holidays back.

I would just go to your manager and explain you will be off for the procedure and then on certified sick leave for whatever time afterwards. I’d be saying this is the only date and you’ve been waiting ages for this appt and aren’t missing it. Sooner your manager knows he better as possibly staffing schedule will need addressing for the period.

skallywag

I agree with Brian above.

Most employers will certainly do everything to accommodate you in such a situation, and working together has always found a solution which everyone was happy with in the end, in my own experience anyway. I would advise you to be upfront with them, rather than going down the road of booking holidays and then producing a sick cert after.

antix80

I think people confuse elective surgery with things like cosmetic surgery which is also elective but is optional. Just in case your manager is ignorant I'd probably avoid using the term. Tell your employer you have an appointment that you can't reschedule and that there's a recovery period involved. You should take it as sick leave, as you won't be able to work. As for the day of the appointment itself.. if your employer insists on you taking it as a day's AL I wouldn't worry too much. Just take an extra sickie later in the year.

whomitconcerns

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

BrokenArrows

If its elective (required but not an emergency) then just tell your manager that you require surgery (dont say elective). Give them the date and the expected recovery time frame.

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Assuming the op's employer has a sick pay policy then there would be a contractual obligation for the employer to pay sick leave.

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

The op is sick, that's why he/she needs surgery.

skallywag

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

While you are correct that there is no obligation to pay sick leave, or perhaps even to put this situation into the 'sick leave' bracket, it is still the case that any decent employer is going to allow the employee to go on paid sick leave in such a case, if that is they have a paid sick leave policy.

At least this has been the case in any place where I have worked or managed.

yabadabado

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

"Sick leave" doesnt just mean you have an illness.Medical certs cover you for being unfit to attend work.

Having surgery is a one of those instances.

OP tell your employer you are having surgery and the dates you will be off.They dont need to know anymore than that.Get medical certs from GP to cover the period you are off.

cee_jay

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

Sick Leave is for when you are "unfit" for work - if someone is undergoing an operation, and is certified from a doctor they are unfit, then it would be classed as sick leave.
There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave, but a company would have a sick leave policy in place as to whether they pay it or not - this would stand regardless of the operation being planned or not.

banie01

There is no obligation on the employee to disclose the nature of their certified absence nor disclose that the procedure you are having is an elective.

Given the state of the waiting lists for treatment for public patients, it can often quite easily be a couple of years waiting for treatment for a non urgent intervention.
If I was in your position, I'd of course engage with my manager and disclose I have received a date for an op.
I would not disclose any further details of the nature of the procedure other than perhaps and expected return to work date.

This is not an employee being awkward, it is engaging with your manager to advise them of a period where you will be medically unfit to work.
The minutiae behind the absence are irrelevant really unless an accommodation needs to be made for you on your return to work.

whomitconcerns

Notwithstanding that I would allow the employee unreservedly take the time also, the op said am I entitled to sick pay? And can they refuse?

And the answers are still there is no automatic statutory entitlement to sick pay, and that yes they could say that the dates don't suit, depending on notice.

There's no denying it would be a pita of an employer to say this but the op asked straightforward questions so those are the factual answers.

Misguided1

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

There's no denying it would be a pita of an employer to say this but the op asked straightforward questions so those are the factual answers.

Just not complete and therefore possibly not helpful.

antix80

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

There's an argument that the procedure isn't medically necessary but the recovery time is!

I suppose something should be written into the company's sick leave policy if the company is worried sick leave would be abused.

tscul32

Ty

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

....what if it was plastic surgery on a burn, or the removal of a large birth mark, no medical requirement there either, both cosmetic issues. It would be difficult to find an appropriate place to draw the line.

Misguided1

tscul32 wrote: »

Ty


....what if it was plastic surgery on a burn, or the removal of a large birth mark, no medical requirement there either, both cosmetic issues. It would be difficult to find an appropriate place to draw the line.

Good point!

Dublinmuppet

I got boobs uplifted. Totally elective but was offered s sick cert to cover it. I didn’t take it as have loads of leave so used that instead. But I could have as the sick cert doesn’t have to say exactly what the problem is

banie01

Dublinmuppet wrote: »

But I could have as the sick cert doesn’t have to say exactly what the problem is

In the current data protection regime, a sick cert with anything other than an expected duration/certified period and either "acute medical condition" or "chronic medical condition" is as detailed as any cert issued for work will be.

The SW cert does require more detail but that's filled out by the GP and patient returns it to SW so work again have no access to the diagnosis unless it's disclosed to them.

skallywag

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

That is a good point, and something which I must say has not crossed my mind before.

If someone was to abuse an employer's offer of sick leave pay for something such as a non medically required boob-job, then I would be sacking this person at the earliest time possible.

To be fair though you would want to be really taking the piss to expect to receive sick leave pay while recovering from such a procedure, and someone of this mindset will more than likely have found themselves sacked beforehand anyway.

Dublinmuppet

skallywag wrote: »

That is a good point, and something which I must say has not crossed my mind before.

If someone was to abuse an employer's offer of sick leave pay for something such as a non medically required boob-job, then I would be sacking this person at the earliest time possible.

To be fair though you would want to be really taking the piss to expect to receive sick leave pay while recovering from such a procedure, and someone of this mindset will more than likely have found themselves sacked beforehand anyway.

Exactly and that’s why I didn’t abuse it. I didn’t need the surgery for medical reasons, I chose to have it for cosmetic reasons. I saved my money and my holidays to have it. I was sore and tired after it and I cleared it with my boss so I could have the holidays without it affecting work. But I was offered the sick cert as I wasn’t fit for work.

_Brian

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

Dav010

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

Illness benefit from SW if certification meets their requirements, yes, but unless the op’s contract states that his/her employer pays wages during absence due to illness, he/she has no entitlement to pay from their employer during sick leave.

Op, does your contract of employment state that you are paid during absences due to illness? There is no statutory requirement for your employer to do so, so if the contract doesn’t say they do, default is they do not.

Mrs OBumble

Book the day of the surgery as annual leave.

The next day, call your employer and tell them you are ill, and that the doctor says you need to be off work for two weeks.

Whether ot not your sick leave is paid depends on your contract. But most non-government employees in Ireland don't get paid.

whomitconcerns

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

It's not rubbish.. You have no entitlement to sick pay. It's 100% at your employer's discretion. If you are being pedantic about what I said then yes you can get money from the social welfare

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

It's not rubbish.. You have no entitlement to sick pay. It's 100% at your employer's discretion.

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

Shelflife

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Book the day of the surgery as annual leave.

The next day, call your employer and tell them you are ill, and that the doctor says you need to be off work for two weeks.

Whether or not your sick leave is paid depends on your contract. But most non-government employees in Ireland don't get paid.

Dont do this, thats leaving your employer in the lurch and will piss them off.

Go to your employer, tell them that you are having surgery and that it will result in X number of days recovery, send in the certs as required, that way the employer will be able to plan for your absence.

If your employer normally pays sick pay then once you send in your certs you should get paid for the days that you are off.

Dav010

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

Op has given no indication there is a sick leave payment policy, so default is that there is none. Op might confirm.

seamus

Convalescence is sick leave just like any other. Entitlement to sick pay is dependent on your employer, however you are entitled to claim illness benefit from the DSP.

It is illegal for your employer to let you use annual leave to cover convalescence.

skallywag

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

This is completely correct.

The exact details will also be either referenced or called out in detail in the employment contract, e.g. the amount of days that can be taken over a certain period may be limited, etc.

That said, it can quite often be the case that an employee assumes that sick pay is a given, when it is not. There is no obligation under Irish law to offer sick leave pay, such as one finds in several EU countries where the employer is legally bound to pay it. If it is not mentioned anywhere then as mentioned previously the default is that it is not paid. I myself would certainly have to think twice about whether I would want to work for a company who do not offer it.

C3PO

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

Nonsense, there is no automatic right to sick pay other than that paid by SW! However, many employers will pay it voluntarily and mine certainly would in the circumstances outlined by the Op!