Elective surgery

whomitconcerns

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

skallywag

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

It is not.

If there is a policy in place to pay sick leave, then they must honour it.

Shelflife

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

No its not at their discretion, if its part of your contract that you get paid sick pay , then you get paid sick pay. Its really that simple.

They cant decide well John has pneumonia so he gets paid but Mary only has the flu so she doesnt get paid .

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

It is illegal for your employer to let you use annual leave to cover convalescence.

What law, exactly, says that?



Sick leave cannot be booked. A sharp HR person will lose no time in telling you that, so trying to arrange it in advance is a waste of time. Employers should always have contingency plans in place to cover the unexpected absence of an employee - no one is iireplacable, and any of us may become unable to work at short notice.

fritzelly

Can I chime in and ask a similar question
Had a pre-op appt this week - put down as AL - no issue with that, from arriving at the hospital to leaving was less than an hour.
But the surgery is in 2 weeks (on a Wed) - I expected to take 2 days off sick, nurse said more likely I won't be back til the Monday and maybe later
This is not an emergency op but more a preventative op before it could become a more severe issue at some point in the future
The hospital said they'll issue the cert on the day of the operation for how long I need to recover (really prefer to just go back to work on Fri)
I don't wan't to take it as AL but it's a new job - only been there 2 months - at time of starting I had no idea when this op would take place. As far as I knew it could have been another year.

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

antix80

fritzelly wrote: »

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

You can take it as AL if your employer agrees. Companies with hr departments may not agree to it.

I assume you don't get sick pay. In which case, you'll be taking it as unpaid sick leave.

You won't get welfare, see:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/345_Illness-Benefit.aspx

fritzelly

antix80 wrote: »

You can take it as AL if your employer agrees. Companies with hr departments may not agree to it.

I assume you don't get sick pay. In which case, you'll be taking it as unpaid sick leave.

You won't get welfare, see:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/345_Illness-Benefit.aspx

No sick pay from the job, still in the 6 month probation period - made me look at the contract, still good to know for the future they do pay the full wage if something happens in the future (minus SW contributions)

Dav010

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What law, exactly, says that?
.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

Sick leave and annual leave

If you are ill during your annual leave and have a medical certificate for the days you were ill, these sick days will not be counted as annual leave days. Instead, you can use these days as annual leave at a later date. An employer cannot require you to take annual leave for a certified period of illness.

Dav010

fritzelly wrote: »

Can I chime in and ask a similar question
Had a pre-op appt this week - put down as AL - no issue with that, from arriving at the hospital to leaving was less than an hour.
But the surgery is in 2 weeks (on a Wed) - I expected to take 2 days off sick, nurse said more likely I won't be back til the Monday and maybe later
This is not an emergency op but more a preventative op before it could become a more severe issue at some point in the future
The hospital said they'll issue the cert on the day of the operation for how long I need to recover (really prefer to just go back to work on Fri)
I don't wan't to take it as AL but it's a new job - only been there 2 months - at time of starting I had no idea when this op would take place. As far as I knew it could have been another year.

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

You can't claim illness benefit for those 3 days, also be aware, if you are absent on Friday and Monday, your employer can also count Saturday and Sunday as sick days, some companies will have a max number of days they will allow on SL during probation before the cut ties with the employee.

fritzelly

Dav010 wrote: »

You can't claim illness benefit for those 3 days, also be aware, if you are absent on Friday and Monday, your employer can also count Saturday and Sunday as sick days, some companies will have a max number of days they will allow on SL during probation before the cut ties with the employee.

Wouldn't be worried about that - of the new starters one has had nearly 2 weeks off and another a week on sick. I'm only talking about a few days

seamus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What law, exactly, says that?

The organisation of working time act, sections 1A & 2.

Time on certified sick leave is considered to be "working time" for the purposes of the act, meaning that you cannot lose annual leave on those days.

Certified sick leave is any leave where a doctor has professionally deemed you incapable of working due to physical or mental illness. This includes convalesence.

Sick leave cannot be booked.

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

skallywag

seamus wrote: »

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

I think that Bumble may be correct on this. I have also heard before that you cannot 'officially' reserve sick leave in advance. It gets honoured of course if there is a sick leave pay policy, but that said one still cannot 'reserve it' legally.

seamus

skallywag wrote: »

I think that Bumble may be correct on this. I have also heard before that you cannot 'officially' reserve sick leave in advance. It gets honoured of course if there is a sick leave pay policy, but that said one still cannot 'reserve it' legally.

There is no general entitlement to sick leave. Which is why strictly speaking it cannot be "reserved". But nevertheless there is no reason why it cannot be booked in advance.

It is taken as a given that an employer cannot require an employee to attend work when they are ill. Thus likewise where an employee notifies the employer that they are in future going to be ill from surgery or otherwise, the employer cannot disregard that and insist they come in.

They could for the purposes of time management ask the employee to book it in as annual leave, but they would be required to return the annual leave to the employee when a sick cert is provided.

TheRiverman

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

Following your procedure you will be unfit for work which is covered by a medical cert,but do you know what your employers sick leave policy is and was it detailed in your work contract when you signed it ?

_Brian

Have absolutely scheduled sick leave for an employee and it was green lighted by hr in a multinational too.

wonski

Did the same last year.

Elective surgery doesn't mean it is not illness. It is generally to improve quality of life or whatever and if you are unfit for work after it, your company will accept it.

Not an issue if your company offers sick pay benefit you will get it.

One eyed Jack

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

The people who are in the best position to answer your queries in relation to your particular circumstances are your employers.

What’s your relationship with your employers like? The reason I ask is because I’m thinking of my own circumstances where similar circumstances were dealt with very differently by two different employers.

Basically I had a hip operation about 20 years ago and my employer at the time was very understanding about it. I couldn’t understand it then why I wasn’t allowed to come back to work after I’d had the operation done. My employer at the time simply said I was an insurance liability on the crutches and they weren’t prepared to take that risk. One of the conditions of being paid sick leave was that I first had to claim off social welfare and sign over any benefits to my employer, and then I would receive my full salary from my employer.

The second time was last year when I had to have a hip operation done again and this time I didn’t have to go near social welfare. My employer again knew well in advance the dates and times and the nature of the operation, the whole lot basically. I know other posters in the thread have suggested your employer doesn’t need to know this that and the other, but honestly I’d sooner rather that my employer would know they could trust me, and I can trust them. That’s why I asked what your relationship with your employer was like.

As it turned out we made arrangements for when I’d be paid sick leave, and because I had a load of holidays I hadn’t used up from the previous year, we arranged that I could use them up too if I wanted (had the operation done at the end of January, have to use up previous years holidays by March or they’re lost). This time my employer had no issues with me coming back to work early after I’d had the operation done, I went back to work on the crutches earlier than we had arranged so I didn’t need as much sick leave as I thought, and I didn’t bother using up the holidays either.

I’m not suggesting you have to follow my example or anything, what I’m saying is that if you have a good relationship with your employer, I’d recommend talking to them about your options and seeing what way you can come to a mutual arrangement that’s beneficial to both you, and your employers.

EDIT: The nature of my employment isn’t physically demanding, it’s more mentally demanding so being on crutches isn’t really an issue from the point of view of being fit for work or not.

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

HR practitioners I have encountered.

Booking for surgery is meaningless: elective operations get cancelled because a sicker person came along all the time. This us why medical certs aren't written until after the operation.

What matters is that you have had something happen and that right now you are incapable of work.

If you are already not expected to be at work eg you have A/L booked, then your employer doesn't even need to see the medical cert.

The law says that your employer cannot force you to use AL to cover sickness. It does not say that you cannot choose to do it.

thesimpsons

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

what about in the case of boob reduction (causing back pain) or face lift as eye lids are drooping over eyes ? Is it not up to the GP/Hospital/consultant to determine if the person is unfit for work or not. If unfit for work, and the company has a policy to pay in the event of unfit for work due to sickness, then surely person is entitled to their sick pay. Where there is a sick pay policy, it isn't up to the employer to pick and choose which medical certs they deem valid in their opinion.