rsa supporting e-scooters

LeinsterDub

1bryan wrote: »

interesting question.

Have any of the pro e-scooter side mentioned what kind of concessions, if any, they would be agreeable to, in order for e-scooters to be legalised?

At the moment it seems they want the same rights as cyclists without any kind of concessions. Of course I'm open to correction on this.

Once we knew what potential legislation would look like, then it would be easier to answer your question.

This has been said dozens of times.

Speed limits, proper lights anything else is up to the rider. In much the same way that if you choose to ride your carbon fiber road racer down a mountain bike track that's your own issue.

Stark

They'd want to be pretty self-loathing to want the same rights as cyclists.

ted1

CapnHex wrote: »

A point I don't understand here. A couple of posts mentioned escooterists and then cyclists hogging the middle of the cycle lane. Is there such a thing as the middle of the cycle lane? Most cycle lanes that I use are only suitable for 1 bike width, that is in order to overtake slower moving cycle lane traffic, it is required to move outside the cycle lane. Please don't tell me that faster cyclists expect slower cyclists to move into the gutter to allow them to pass more easily, I thought that was motorist logic.

The etiquette is to keep left to allow fast cyclists path, common sense applies in the if there's an obstacle keep out.

ted1

1bryan wrote: »

interesting question.

Have any of the pro e-scooter side mentioned what kind of concessions, if any, they would be agreeable to, in order for e-scooters to be legalised?

At the moment it seems they want the same rights as cyclists without any kind of concessions. Of course I'm open to correction on this.

Once we knew what potential legislation would look like, then it would be easier to answer your question.

one issue with that is speed limits don't apply to cyclists.

ted1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The risk is entirely the riders unless the council has been negligent , same as cycling

granted, but the risks are increased, and the council is more exposed.

as my Father in Law ( a solicitor in a working class part of Dublin) Don't knock the council and their dodgy footpaths, they put your wife through private school.

CrankyHaus

marcos_94 wrote: »

That is as it stands currently. What is under discussion is potential changes to this legislation to re-categorise e-scooters. i agree, that right now they are illegal by the letter of the law.



I agree again that there is nothing stopping any idiot getting behind a scooter which is why, as per the RSAs public consultation, there may be training required for people wanting to buy an e-scooter, however, any idiot can currently buy an electric bike, nearly any idiot can get a drivers license, so what is required is appropriate enforcement of regulations to ensure the safety of all road users.



There are however certain shared benefits, including reducing the amount of people driving that would not have considered cycling due to lack of say shower facilities at work, there is of course the potential benefit in reduction of car use and thus reduction in emissions.

I agree, to a point. I'm not convinced that applying exactly the same rules to e-scooters as we do to cars is the way to go. However I do think something more restrictive than the rules for bicycles is appropriate. Maybe compulsory training on purchase, but that ignores the second hand market. A consultation to figure out what works is the way to go and there are considerable potential benefits.

My point about E-Scooters was that the barrier to access for somebody doing nearly 30 km/h on them is lower than for a bicycle or anything else. Anyone can get a bicycle but doing 30 km/h on one, especially regularly and in a built up area, usually means a level of experience that weeds out the most dangerous users before they get there.

In contrast, with an e-scooter it's simply away you go on first time use at ~30 km/h with potentially zero understanding of road safety and the law. The best comparison I can think of is Roald Dahl's account of his family getting a then-new and barely regulated motor car in his childhood and just burning down the road until they crashed.

Inexperienced cyclists exist - I once got knocked off my bike by one rear ending me and then starting on me - but they'll usually be going slower until they wise up or give up.

Terrible motorists are a huge problem but you can be certain that the barriers for entry prevent the problem from being infinitely worse.

Licensing etc also make enforcement of road traffic laws far easier. IMO enforcing road traffic laws on a class of vehicles without the licensing to enable identification and tracing is borderline impossible, the Gardai barely manage it on motor vehicles as is. Just look at bicycles for an example. Regardless of the odd one being stopped for running a red, law enforcement simply isn't a consideration for most cyclists - if they cycle safely and legally it's because they want to be safe and legal and if they don't they act like the clowns we all see on our commute.

LeinsterDub

ted1 wrote: »

granted, but the risks are increased, and the council is more exposed.

as my Father in Law ( a solicitor in a working class part of Dublin) Don't knock the council and their dodgy footpaths, they put your wife through private school.

We shouldn't ban e scooters because LAs are chronically under funded, we should fund our LAs properly

ted1

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We shouldn't ban e scooters because LAs are chronically under funded, we should fund our LAs properly

No, but we should at how to best provision and allow them within exposure

spaceHopper

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do understand that there's a worry that smaller wheels might be a cause to believe that they're more unstable. however, i don't know whether this is actually borne out in reality.
can someone explain to me what else is fundamentally unsafe about scooters, which cannot be addressed in legislation/enforcement?

Smaller wheels don't handle potholes or bad surfaces well they get stuck.

magicbastarder

i just can't get my head around the notion that we could allow single occupancy vehicles, weighing a ton and a half, doing (even if they're obeying the speed limit on some roads) up to 60km/h, but a vehicle weighing 15Kg and capable of less than half the speed is too much to consider.

Padre_Pio

CrankyHaus wrote: »

I agree, to a point. I'm not convinced that applying exactly the same rules to e-scooters as we do to cars is the way to go. However I do think something more restrictive than the rules for bicycles is appropriate. Maybe compulsory training on purchase, but that ignores the second hand market. A consultation to figure out what works is the way to go and there are considerable potential benefits.

My point about E-Scooters was that the barrier to access for somebody doing nearly 30 km/h on them is lower than for a bicycle or anything else. Anyone can get a bicycle but doing 30 km/h on one, especially regularly and in a built up area, usually means a level of experience that weeds out the most dangerous users before they get there.

In contrast, with an e-scooter it's simply away you go on first time use at ~30 km/h with potentially zero understanding of road safety and the law. The best comparison I can think of is Roald Dahl's account of his family getting a then-new and barely regulated motor car in his childhood and just burning down the road until they crashed.

Inexperienced cyclists exist - I once got knocked off my bike by one rear ending me and then starting on me - but they'll usually be going slower until they wise up or give up.

Terrible motorists are a huge problem but you can be certain that the barriers for entry prevent the problem from being infinitely worse.

Licensing etc also make enforcement of road traffic laws far easier. IMO enforcing road traffic laws on a class of vehicles without the licensing to enable identification and tracing is borderline impossible, the Gardai barely manage it on motor vehicles as is. Just look at bicycles for an example. Regardless of the odd one being stopped for running a red, law enforcement simply isn't a consideration for most cyclists - if they cycle safely and legally it's because they want to be safe and legal and if they don't they act like the clowns we all see on our commute.

This is all sound advice, but do we need to reinvent the wheel here?

E-scooters are available in most European cities through Lime and Voi.
Our problem is tiny compared to them. Surely someone has cracked it.

Incidentally, they're lethal if you're not careful, there's definitely a European manners thing where people are hesitant to use them on pedestrian streets, but I doubt we'd be so restrained.

LeeroyJ.

From someone that has been riding an escooter to and from work before COVID19 for nearly a year, a lot of the elitist comments from Cyclist are just pure ignorance.
If legalized they should be limited to 20-25 kph, just like in most other countries, any halfway decent bike that isn't a Dublin Bike hits 25 kph with ease. In fact, I am usually one of the slower vehicles on my Xiaomi and get overtaken by bikes constantly. You aren't going 30kph constantly, you do 25 in ideal conditions (warm, full battery, downhill, under weight limit) realistically you're doing 18 to 20 most of the time. Of course there are people on crazy machines doing 40+ but those should be illegal once regulated. And those people are few and the exception, since a) these machines are extremely expensive nad b) the Guards are unlikely to turn a blind eye to these machines.

There should be an age limit and possibly even drivers licence required, safety standards and possibly even models approved by the RSA. Other than that there is little difference to an e-bike. It always amazes me how cyclist want greener cities, less congestion - but only if you are cycling. Skateboarding, inline skates, scooters (electric or non-electric) and other forms of transport don't seem to fit their world view.

Anyway, the UK is starting a trial period, which I think is a smart decision. Trial of new forms of transport are exactly what we need to get more people out of cars. Many countries have made them legal or a trialing them currently.

beauf

Padre_Pio wrote: »

This is all sound advice, but do we need to reinvent the wheel here?

E-scooters are available in most European cities through Lime and Voi.
Our problem is tiny compared to them. Surely someone has cracked it.

Incidentally, they're lethal if you're not careful, there's definitely a European manners thing where people are hesitant to use them on pedestrian streets, but I doubt we'd be so restrained.

Well this is it exactly. In Europe they have similar rules to cycles but not exactly the same. This is not rocket science.

https://www.eltis.org/discover/news/e-scooter-regulations-germany-and-france

beauf

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

From someone that has been riding an escooter to and from work before COVID19 for nearly a year, a lot of the elitist comments from Cyclist are just pure ignorance. ..

... It always amazes me how cyclist want greener cities, less congestion - but only if you are cycling. Skateboarding, inline skates, scooters (electric or non-electric) and other forms of transport don't seem to fit their world view. ....

There a lot of comments from cyclists here all in favour of eScooters, and only a minority against. So less of the sweeping generalizations, please.

eeeee

Yep I've no problem at all with E-Scooters, and I have a city centre commute. Like bikes I think they should all have lights, a speed limit for them (25kph) follow the rules of the road etc. I don't agree with them needing a license or similar, I think it's a form of transport we need to incentivise. It's something most people can do and should be encouraged, alongside cycling and public transport to reduce private car use in the city/town.

Thelonious Monk

Handy thing is you could just step off and walk through pedestrian crossings, or go on path and walk around a red light if you're turning left.
The ones I've seen commuters on all seem to behave impeccably, and you really would need to as you're pretty exposed if you start taking risks.

CramCycle

1bryan wrote: »

I've read this a couple of times and it makes no sense.

Basically you have claimed they are dangerous to cyclists but offered nothing to back up your assertion. I have met loads of escooters on my commutes, bar one nearly snotting herself because she stopped paying attention, none appeared to be any danger to anyone but possibly themselves.

1bryan wrote: »

Have any of the pro e-scooter side mentioned what kind of concessions, if any, they would be agreeable to, in order for e-scooters to be legalised?

I am not sure what concessions you mean, here would be my suggestions for regulations:
- illeagal on the footpath, gardai would sieze as well as issuing a fine for anyone using one on a footpath.
- they have a motor and are unaided, put an exemption to road tax and registration for those that are limited to a speed of 25kmph, and under a certain weight. Most people can easily prve this to Gardai yb pulling up the stats on their phone. Gardai as always can sieze, like they do with bikes, if they feel they are being presented with false information.
- allow them access to use bike paths as an exception to other motorised vehicles
- all other laws in line with motor bikes and cyclists
- all users after readers dusk must have a front and rear light mounted on their person, at waist height or above. Failure to abide leads to a FPN like it does with cyclists.

Stark wrote: »

They'd want to be pretty self-loathing to want the same rights as cyclists.

Nearly drowned on my coffee when I read that

ted1 wrote: »

granted, but the risks are increased, and the council is more exposed.
as my Father in Law ( a solicitor in a working class part of Dublin) Don't knock the council and their dodgy footpaths, they put your wife through private school.

Increaed by what factor? How exposed are they at the minute? How big an issue is it really.

1bryan

CramCycle wrote: »

Basically you have claimed they are dangerous to cyclists but offered nothing to back up your assertion. I have met loads of escooters on my commutes, bar one nearly snotting herself because she stopped paying attention, none appeared to be any danger to anyone but possibly themselves.

I was knocked off by an e-scooter who was fairly tanking it along and lost control as he came up alongside me. This happened in Rathfarnham, near the Yellow House pub, so I wasn't even as far as the city centre when it happened. Otherwise, aggressive riding by e-scooterists along the cycle lanes during rush hour when impatient of slower moving cyclists, is the biggest issue I've seen. I've seen some jostling, and close passes in the section of the canal between leeson st bridge, and Rathmines (I leave the canal at Rathmines).

The above behaviour is what I've noticed by, both, e-scooters, and by unregulated e-bikes. I have not been taken town by an unregulated e-bike, however.

Of course, you only have my word to take for any of the above. No doubt some of the pro scooter crowd will be asking for photos and video footage next.

buffalo

CramCycle wrote: »

- they have a motor and are unaided, put an exemption to road tax and registration

Why Cram, why have you betrayed us!?!

LeinsterDub

1bryan wrote: »

I was knocked off by an e-scooter who was fairly tanking it along and lost control as he came up alongside me. This happened in Rathfarnham, near the Yellow House pub, so I wasn't even as far as the city centre when it happened. Otherwise, aggressive riding by e-scooterists along the cycle lanes during rush hour when impatient of slower moving cyclists, is the biggest issue I've seen. I've seen some jostling, and close passes in the section of the canal between leeson st bridge, and Rathmines (I leave the canal at Rathmines).

The above behaviour is what I've noticed by, both, e-scooters, and by unregulated e-bikes. I have not been taken town by an unregulated e-bike, however.

Of course, you only have my word to take for any of the above. No doubt some of the pro scooter crowd will be asking for photos and video footage next.

I certainly wont be asking for evidence because your anecdotes are meaningless to a wider conversation about e-scooters, in much the same way that people's anecdotes about cyclist knocking someone down on the footpath are meaningless to a wider conversation

Padre_Pio

1bryan wrote: »

I was knocked off by an e-scooter who was fairly tanking it along and lost control as he came up alongside me. This happened in Rathfarnham, near the Yellow House pub, so I wasn't even as far as the city centre when it happened. Otherwise, aggressive riding by e-scooterists along the cycle lanes during rush hour when impatient of slower moving cyclists, is the biggest issue I've seen. I've seen some jostling, and close passes in the section of the canal between leeson st bridge, and Rathmines (I leave the canal at Rathmines).

The above behaviour is what I've noticed by, both, e-scooters, and by unregulated e-bikes. I have not been taken town by an unregulated e-bike, however.

Of course, you only have my word to take for any of the above. No doubt some of the pro scooter crowd will be asking for photos and video footage next.

Hmm, should cycle lanes have an overtaking lane?

1bryan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Hmm, should cycle lanes have an overtaking lane?

what prompted that question?

CramCycle

1bryan wrote: »

I was knocked off by an e-scooter who was fairly tanking it along and lost control as he came up alongside me. This happened in Rathfarnham, near the Yellow House pub, so I wasn't even as far as the city centre when it happened. Otherwise, aggressive riding by e-scooterists along the cycle lanes during rush hour when impatient of slower moving cyclists, is the biggest issue I've seen. I've seen some jostling, and close passes in the section of the canal between leeson st bridge, and Rathmines (I leave the canal at Rathmines).

The above behaviour is what I've noticed by, both, e-scooters, and by unregulated e-bikes. I have not been taken town by an unregulated e-bike, however.

Of course, you only have my word to take for any of the above. No doubt some of the pro scooter crowd will be asking for photos and video footage next.

I have had the same behaviour from regular cyclists, several pedestrians running into me while I was stopped at lights and motorists to name but a few. Christ, the canal way is one I stopped using because of the attitude of cyclists on that route. This said, i'd never accuse all cyclists or even a majority of being like that. If you have only noticed it on escooters and ebikes, then I think you have been either very unlucky or lucky, depending on what you measure.

buffalo wrote: »

Why Cram, why have you betrayed us!?!

The money, like Radio 1 and Newstalk, the AA are giving me a cut. I took it and I would do it again, I decided my pension was more valuable than my decency.

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: Some posts deleted, play the game, not the player. Anymore of that after hours nit pciking at grammer and spalling, posters will find themselves on vacation form the forum

Weepsie

1bryan wrote: »

I was knocked off by an e-scooter who was fairly tanking it along and lost control as he came up alongside me. This happened in Rathfarnham, near the Yellow House pub, so I wasn't even as far as the city centre when it happened. Otherwise, aggressive riding by e-scooterists along the cycle lanes during rush hour when impatient of slower moving cyclists, is the biggest issue I've seen. I've seen some jostling, and close passes in the section of the canal between leeson st bridge, and Rathmines (I leave the canal at Rathmines).

The above behaviour is what I've noticed by, both, e-scooters, and by unregulated e-bikes. I have not been taken town by an unregulated e-bike, however.

Of course, you only have my word to take for any of the above. No doubt some of the pro scooter crowd will be asking for photos and video footage next.

That's only evidence that that one person was dangerous, not escooters. That person would probably be a d!ckhead on a bike, in a car etc.



If everything relied on our anecdotal experiences of the road / traffic etc, we'd be in a very bad place, as we are biased in what we see.

1bryan

Weepsie wrote: »

That's only evidence that that one person was dangerous, not escooters. That person would probably be a d!ckhead on a bike, in a car etc.

fair point, but the one compelling fact is that they were on an e-scooter, which is, at present, an illegal mode of transport. So, erratic, or dangerous behaviour on one of those, would tend to stand out moreso than with cyclists.

Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.

MojoMaker

I don't have one but I like the idea of e-scoots. Tried Lime in Budapest and it was a pleasant experience overall. I've been holding off on getting one here until the law is firmer around their usage but once it is I think I will dip in and pick up a mid-range model to add to the non-car commuting arsenal, particularly for those places where it might be slightly awkward to bring a bike.

Stark

1bryan wrote: »

fair point, but the one compelling fact is that they were on an e-scooter, which is, at present, an illegal mode of transport. So, erratic, or dangerous behaviour on one of those, would tend to stand out moreso than with cyclists.

Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.

Sounds like you're making the argument for legalising them then. Since if the e-scooter had been legal, you wouldn't have been knocked off if I'm understanding your circular logic correctly.

1bryan

Stark wrote: »

Sounds like you're making the argument for legalising them then. Since if the e-scooter had been legal, you wouldn't have been knocked off if I'm understanding your circular logic correctly.

well, no, not exactly. Legalising them will require concessions from the pro e-scooter folk. By concessions I mean restrictions on their use. Some people here have put forward sensible and thought-provoking suggestions as regards the types of concessions/restrictions that could lead to they're being legalised.

Until and unless that list is finalised, I'd be hesitant to say whether I agree with their legalisation, or not.

But, yes, there is certainly a middle ground that I would personally consider to be acceptable.

magicbastarder

1bryan wrote: »

fair point, but the one compelling fact is that they were on an e-scooter

your fact is compelling, but not compelling me to come to the conclusion that you did.