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rsa supporting e-scooters

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    #362
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    1bryan wrote: »
    fair point, but the one compelling fact is that they were on an e-scooter, which is, at present, an illegal mode of transport. So, erratic, or dangerous behaviour on one of those, would tend to stand out moreso than with cyclists.

    Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.

    Close passing, and swiping others, is also done by those cycling or driving dangerously. Its especially bad on long straights, like the canal or the phoenix park.


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    #363
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    1bryan wrote: »
    But, yes, there is certainly a middle ground that I would personally consider to be acceptable.
    your initial refusal to accept regulation as a good idea seems to stem from the belief that 'regulation' would involve blanket rubber stamping of their use, if i understand correctly? because now you seem to be saying that regulation could be a good idea.


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    #364
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭buffalo


    1bryan wrote: »
    fair point, but the one compelling fact is that they were on an e-scooter, which is, at present, an illegal mode of transport. So, erratic, or dangerous behaviour on one of those, would tend to stand out moreso than with cyclists.

    Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.

    If a particular action is illegal, it follows that the people doing it are more likely to be risk takers. Therefore, legalising e-scooters will lead to a lot more people using them more conservatively, and the amount of risky behaviour - as a percentage - will drop.


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    #365
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,145 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    if we were to get something of this bloody virus it would be making more space available to pedestrians and cyclists around towns and cities , e-scooters seem like a plus as a way to divert some people off public transport.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #366
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    1bryan wrote: »
    Basically, had the person who knocked me off, been adhering to the law, I would not have been knocked off.
    Can't you say that about a massive amount of RTAs? Very rarely is an accident caused by two faultless and law-abiding parties


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    #367
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Can't you say that about a massive amount of RTCs? Very rarely is a collision caused by two faultless and law-abiding parties

    FYP


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    #368
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    silverharp wrote: »
    e-scooters seem like a plus as a way to divert some people off public transport.
    this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.


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    #369
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.

    Our PT was over crowded this is a good thing. Obviously in terms of personal health getting people to walk or cycle is the ideal but we needed to encourage a model shift from PT to PEV/bike/walking so that PT was more viable for those can't switch


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    #370
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,772 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Our PT was over crowded this is a good thing. Obviously in terms of personal health getting people to walk or cycle is the ideal but we needed to encourage a model shift from PT to PEV/bike/walking so that PT was more viable for those can't switch

    The negative was that PT was so poorly invested in that the capacity was never where it was needed, or frequency where it should have been, a failure on both fronts that it should have covered. Escooters were a personal soultion for a small percentage of PT users and not really the issue.


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    #371
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,929 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    1bryan wrote: »
    not that different? LOL.

    They need different infrastructure or else they should remain illegal.
    Yes not that different as I said, same speeds, same amount of road space consumed, same road position, same utterly minuscule level of danger to other road users, same list of advantages as long as your arm in removing a car from the road...

    Laughable to call for separate infrastructure between them, how do you feel about Nissan Micras vs articulated lorries? Honda 50s vs double decker buses?


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    #372
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    One of the issues that the NTA were concerened about is that e-scooters would move users from public transport to scooters. If more people start using cycle lanes because they are now allowed to use a scoooter, then thats an increase in the share of the electorate who's votes can be bought by investment in good personal mobility infrastructure (i.e. cycle lanes).

    I think most people who want to see these legalised are happy with approx 25 km/h for unrestricted use. I'm not sure what mandatory training is meant to achieve. We let cyclists on the roads with no training, the low powered scooters are no different.


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    #373
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    your initial refusal to accept regulation as a good idea seems to stem from the belief that 'regulation' would involve blanket rubber stamping of their use, if i understand correctly? because now you seem to be saying that regulation could be a good idea.

    you are throwing out a generic term like 'regulation' without defining it, and are expecting me to agree or disagree?

    I've said that some people have put out interesting ideas around regulation and would be deemed acceptable to me.

    My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

    And no one will convince me that is unreasonable.

    I see the 'gang' mentality creeping in here. When one can't be convinced by debate, gang up on them, that'll change their mind.


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    #374
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    Thargor wrote: »
    Yes not that different as I said, same speeds, same amount of road space consumed, same road position, same utterly minuscule level of danger to other road users, same list of advantages as long as your arm in removing a car from the road...

    Laughable to call for separate infrastructure between them, how do you feel about Nissan Micras vs articulated lorries? Honda 50s vs double decker buses?

    e-scooters are closer to motor scooters than bicycles, imo. If regulated, they should use the same part of the road that motor scooters do.

    A honda 50 is closer to an e-scooter than a bus is to a honda 50.


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    #375
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    buffalo wrote: »
    If a particular action is illegal, it follows that the people doing it are more likely to be risk takers. Therefore, legalising e-scooters will lead to a lot more people using them more conservatively, and the amount of risky behaviour - as a percentage - will drop.

    the proportion of risky behaviour - as a percentage - will drop.

    the amount of risky behaviour, overall, will rise.


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    #376
    LillySV
    Registered Users Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭LillySV


    There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax


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    #377
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    1bryan wrote: »

    My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

    So no electric bikes then?


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    #378
    mirrormatrix
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭mirrormatrix


    LillySV wrote: »
    There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

    You're on a cycling forum. Can you please go somewhere else if you have nothing constructive to say?


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    #379
    marcos_94
    Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭marcos_94


    LillySV wrote: »
    . In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

    It’s been mentioned and discussed at length that e-scooters are no faster than cyclists. Bikes can reach speeds in excess of 30 kmh. Insurance would kill the use of e-scooters, especially here in Ireland where the insurance industry is so clearly broken.

    E-scooters (and bikes) are light in weight overall and do little to no damage to road infrastructure, why should they pay motor tax? Most users will already be paying motor tax on their cars. Do you realise how small the proportion of money from motor tax actually goes towards roads? It all goes into a central pot which is then allocated to different areas


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    #380
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,397 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    mirrormatrix wrote: »
    You're on a cycling forum. Can you please go somewhere else if you have nothing constructive to say?
    mod note - no backseat moderation please.

    LillySV - can you please read the charter of the forum, especially regarding negativity towards cyclists, and please go somewhere else if you've nothing constructive to say?
    thank you


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    #381
    mirrormatrix
    Registered Users Posts: 616 ✭✭✭mirrormatrix


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    mod note - no backseat moderation please.

    LillySV - can you please read the charter of the forum, especially regarding negativity towards cyclists, and please go somewhere else if you've nothing constructive to say?
    thank you

    Apologies. This one just riled me up and I couldn't figure out how to report a post.


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    #382
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    marcos_94 wrote: »
    It’s been mentioned and discussed at length that e-scooters are no faster than cyclists. ..s

    There are some that are a lot faster.

    The main issue here is the inaction of govt yet again on an issues that's needed sorting out for couple of years at this point.


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    #383
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    griffdaddy wrote: »
    So no electric bikes then?

    regulated e-bikes and e-scooters are not comparable. It is a separate argument. Regulated e-bikes have power-assist to a max of 25 km/h. E-scooters are fully self-propelled.

    Regulated e-bikes, in my experience, have been a great addition to this city. Tbh, I don't see why unregulated e-bikes or e-scooters are needed at all.


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    #384
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    LillySV wrote: »
    There has to be better regulation of e scooters and bicycles... I watch numerous cyclists cycle through read lights, cycle on footpaths, cycle through pedestrian crossings without giving way to pedestrians... appalling carry on .... e scooters will be the same. Both groups should be given mandatory training to make themselves safer on the road ....should they be made wear bibs with registration number plate for the license holder also so they can be easily identified and reported for dangerous/careless driving.... I think so .... everyone should be accountable on the road. In the case of e scooters... as they are fast enough they should be made have insurance also .... and contribute towards the upkeep of roads by paying some tax

    apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.


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    #385
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,216 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    1bryan wrote: »
    apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.

    I've, and I'm sure many here, have overtaken e-scooters. On the argument of speed being a basis for insurance requirements, should we have to be insured?

    What if we promise to stay at a reduced speed, do we get freebies?

    Do you 2 not realise that 'regulations' already exist, albeit not enforced as much as they could be, but not to the much more detrimental affect of not enforcing road traffic laws against motorists, who break road traffic laws to a much greater extent than cyclists?


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    #386
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,649 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    1bryan wrote: »
    ...
    My skin in this game is, as a cyclist, I don't want cycle lanes congested with those with vastly superior acceleration or (in many cases) speed, who are poorly trained to handle the power at their disposal.

    ...

    No different to Dublin bikes with people having no experience jumping on them and not having a clue how to behave cycling in traffic.

    E bikes have the same effect of getting people who were sedentary back out cycling. They will have accidents, just because there are more of them.


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    #387
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,766 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    1bryan wrote: »
    apart from the registration for bikes, which is a whole other debate, I can't disagree with any of that.

    Mandatory hi-viz bibs with registration numbers? I'm pretty sure I would continue to cycle, and after a month I probably would know the other eight cyclists around Dublin by name.


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    #388
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,926 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    1bryan wrote: »
    e-scooters are closer to motor scooters than bicycles, imo. If regulated, they should use the same part of the road that motor scooters do.

    A honda 50 is closer to an e-scooter than a bus is to a honda 50.

    Maybe you haven't actually experienced an area where legalised scooters and cycles are able to mix. They travel at approx the same speed as commuting cyclist, it would be somewhat dangerous to implement a system where we had a lane of bikes doing between 25 km/h to 35 km/h next to a set of scooters hogging the left hand side of a general traffic lane doing between 20 km/h and 25 km/h. Or perhaps your suggestion is that we move cycle lanes closer to the center of the road and allow the slower e-scooters to occupy the area closer to the curb as they are slightly slower than the cycles?


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    #389
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    liamog wrote: »
    Maybe you haven't actually experienced an area where legalised scooters and cycles are able to mix. They travel at approx the same speed as commuting cyclist, it would be somewhat dangerous to implement a system where we had a lane of bikes doing between 25 km/h to 35 km/h next to a set of scooters hogging the left hand side of a general traffic lane doing between 20 km/h and 25 km/h. Or perhaps your suggestion is that we move cycle lanes closer to the center of the road and allow the slower e-scooters to occupy the area closer to the curb as they are slightly slower than the cycles?

    I spent some time in Miami last year where there are 2 e-scooter share schemes in operation (uber being one, spin being the other). I witnessed someone crashing into the side of a parked car, and someone else clipping a pedestrian. The majority of e-scooter use there was on the footpath, not on the road.

    So, I have experienced an area where they are commonly used. In that case the issue wasn't so much as their co-existence with cyclists, but in society in general.

    The area I was in had a large university nearby. The majority of e-scooter users were college kids, and the scooters were the absolute bane of everyone else there.


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    #390
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    Mandatory hi-viz bibs with registration numbers? I'm pretty sure I would continue to cycle, and after a month I probably would know the other eight cyclists around Dublin by name.

    Yeah, in general I wouldn't favour any barriers to cycling, within reason.

    Registration would be something I'd resist, but would do it if I had to.


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    #391
    1bryan
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭1bryan


    beauf wrote: »
    No different to Dublin bikes with people having no experience jumping on them and not having a clue how to behave cycling in traffic.

    E bikes have the same effect of getting people who were sedentary back out cycling. They will have accidents, just because there are more of them.

    agreed on Dublin bikes, but at least the areas they are in are somewhat confined. I have seen some crazy behaviour on them, and there is definitely an issue to be addressed there.


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