rsa supporting e-scooters

tomasrojo

Most of the topics you've raised have been discussed to death. Do a search, and don't plonk down a gish gallop of hobby-horse restrictions.

1bryan

CramCycle wrote: »

No you didn't, not to mine anyway, the only responses I could see from you were as follows

you are being very selective in quoting and misrepresenting what I have been saying. It is pointless even attempting debate with you. I'm sure you are fully sure and it is fully intentional that you are twisting my words. Have a good day.

magicbastarder

LillySV wrote: »

where was the negativity , I stated that more regulation was required to reduce road deaths.... that’s not negativity..... the negativity only comes about when you and your friend decided ye don’t like my suggestions. I’ve seen dangerous cyclists, bikers, car drivers... there is mandatory lessons and testing for bikers and car drivers which has shown to reduce road deaths... so surely lessons for cyclists and e scooterists would again further reduce incidents

do not post in this thread again. you were told if you had an issue to take it to PMs and you ignored this.

CramCycle

1bryan wrote: »

you are being very selective in quoting and misrepresenting what I have been saying. It is pointless even attempting debate with you. I'm sure you are fully sure and it is fully intentional that you are twisting my words. Have a good day.

I gave a list of potential guidelines, others have responded with points. You haven't, it is not selective quoting. I can't, and no one can, give you the government regs as they do not exist and potentially won't for some time. So you have to discuss the potential regs.

Read through the ones I suggested and let me know if you think these are reasonable or not was what I was asking.

Yours I responded to as I think being overkill and unworkable, and really imply that whoever puts them forward wants low speed electric scooters killed off. Personally I would like them allowed rather than have daft buggers playing with really dangerous ones and being in the same cat as those with low speed ones, as they are clearly not the same risk level.

As a cyclist, I am unlikely ever to use one except on holidays. We have regular scooters in the house which are a bit of fun but I just don't like escooters and for me they are impractical. This said I wouldn't be against something because it doesn't benefit me. If there is one in the bike lane, I move out and overtake, its relatively simple to do.

Licences: For over a certain speed ability, yes, they would simply fall into regs for motorcycles. My suggestion was to put an exemption for them in regards licencing and taxation if they are only capable of a certain max speed, in the same way ebikes are.

Insurance: Insurance is there for otor vehicles as in serious accidents, the state bares an undue financial burden that those involved are unlikely to be able to cover. This could happen with any vehicle but statistically it is motor vehicles that place the majority of this burden. I would be very much be of the opinion that it is not a requirement, unless the CSO after regulation is introduced shows something else.

Regulations: As in my previous posts, speed restrictions, lights from dusk till dawn and general principles in line with ebikes and bikes.

Grassey

marcos_94 wrote:

It’s been mentioned and discussed at length that e-scooters are no faster than cyclists. Bikes can reach speeds in excess of 30 kmh. Insurance would kill the use of e-scooters, especially here in Ireland where the insurance industry is so clearly broken.

I've seen posts on an Irish escooter group where they actively discuss how to flash new firmwares to unblock max speeds of 25kmh, or where to get it done. There's lads recommending/selling scooters up to 60kmh on there too.

They seem to be of the opinion that they should have higher max speeds than 20 - 25kmh, but users should regulate with 'common sense'...

marcos_94

Grassey wrote: »

I've seen posts on an Irish escooter group where they actively discuss how to flash new firmwares to unblock max speeds of 25kmh, or where to get it done. There's lads recommending/selling scooters up to 60kmh on there too.

They seem to be of the opinion that they should have higher max speeds than 20 - 25kmh, but users should regulate with 'common sense'...

Iv seen posts on Irish car owner groups where they actively discuss how to get more power from their cars and where to get it done. Iv also seen similar for e-bikes. There are always people who will look for more, but that doesnt mean it should be banned for all because of the few who break the rules. If that was the case, driving would have been made illegal years ago.

They are entitled to their opinion regarding what the allowable "top speed" should be. There is merit in having discussion with those from all points of view when coming up with new regulations

keane2097

This is the ultimate Irish reaction to everything. Ban absolutely anything that people could potentially act the maggot with just in case someone decides to do so.

There were loads of posts celebrating the closure of Tesco clothes sections on Bargain Alerts last week because someone said they saw two people fighting over clothes in some Tesco somewhere. Paddy delighted then that they're all closed because we must all be punished. I think it's Catholic guilt. I saw a fella using a scooter on a footpath and so as we are all stained with this original sin all must be flagellated and repent.

magicbastarder

i do think it's kinda funny that we're discussing setting a max limit on extremely light vehicles for the sake of safety, and yet the notion of doing so on vehicles weighing 100 times as much is still met with massive pushback.
maybe the motor industry should beware a precedent being set of a limiter on scooters.

(btw, i do know there's occasional talk of this for cars, but you often get the 'sometimes i need to break the speed limit for my own safety' response, which is usually worth a chuckle)

1bryan

keane2097 wrote: »

This is the ultimate Irish reaction to everything. Ban absolutely anything that people could potentially act the maggot with just in case someone decides to do so.

There were loads of posts celebrating the closure of Tesco clothes sections on Bargain Alerts last week because someone said they saw two people fighting over clothes in some Tesco somewhere. Paddy delighted then that they're all closed because we must all be punished. I think it's Catholic guilt. I saw a fella using a scooter on a footpath and so as we are all stained with this original sin all must be flagellated and repent.

the argument isn't about banning them. They are banned. The argument is about whether to legalise them, or not, and how to do so, if so.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do think it's kinda funny that we're discussing setting a max limit on extremely light vehicles for the sake of safety, and yet the notion of doing so on vehicles weighing 100 times as much is still met with massive pushback.
maybe the motor industry should beware a precedent being set of a limiter on scooters.

(btw, i do know there's occasional talk of this for cars, but you often get the 'sometimes i need to break the speed limit for my own safety' response, which is usually worth a chuckle)

I presume one idea would be that if they are going much faster, their brakes would have to be suitable and tested. A bit like the guys putting petrol engines on sh1tty BSOs, their brakes can't handle the potential stress if something goes wrong, but I don't know enough about scooters to comment on theirs.

I know from following my son on his push scooter around a car park that a non motorised scooter can hit 25kmph with ease for short periods of time and he was able to stop or jump off with ease at the age of 6.

keane2097

1bryan wrote: »

the argument isn't about banning them. They are banned. The argument is about whether to legalise them, or not, and how to do so, if so.

Oh wow that changes the thrust of my post completely - thanks for the illumination

silverharp

magicbastarder wrote: »

this is actually one thing which (prior to coronapox) was actually a negative of the scooters; i understand that the effect of them was more to divert people from using public transport than it was from using cars.

true, at the end of the day its a young person's form of transport, its mostly going to be an under 30's form of getting about( at least that is my impression).

I would say that it is useful if you have to cross Dublin, the canals for instance where the public transport tends to be rubbish

LeinsterDub

magicbastarder wrote: »

i do think it's kinda funny that we're discussing setting a max limit on extremely light vehicles for the sake of safety, and yet the notion of doing so on vehicles weighing 100 times as much is still met with massive pushback.
maybe the motor industry should beware a precedent being set of a limiter on scooters.

(btw, i do know there's occasional talk of this for cars, but you often get the 'sometimes i need to break the speed limit for my own safety' response, which is usually worth a chuckle)

Hopefully for not too long.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/mandatory-speed-limiters/

LeeroyJ.

Currently, E scooters are Legal in:

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden


To be legal soon:
Estonia
United Kingdom
Latvia

Unclear / partly legal:
Czech Republic
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Portugal

Illegal:
Malta
Ireland
Netherlands
Poland

As you can see there are:

4 countries that have made Electric scooter entirely illegal, Malta, Ireland, Netherlands and Poland.

3 Countries are set to legalize them in the near future.

7 Countries have local restrictions, don't have any specific laws making them legal or illegal or require a drivers licence which I consider under partly legal.

14 Countries have made them legal (with various restriction to speed, safety gear and where to drive them)

Out of the EU 27+UK, 4 countries have banned them entirely, which makes me wonder what makes us so different to the 24 countries that are allowing people to use them even with the "tiny wheels".


Edit: Just for clarification, this is based on my own research. If people are interested I can dive deeper into every country.
Edit2: for further clarification, the partly legal/ unclear section is for countries that have for example handed legislation to local administrations, so one county may allow them, another may not. In addition these countries allow them and classify them as e bikes but are investigating changing the status of electric scooters

magicbastarder

to be pedantic, they are not illegal here. they are legal if taxed, insured, etc., as mopeds.
i understand that ringing an insurance complany looking for insurance may be a thankless task...

ted1

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

4 countries that have made Electric scooter entirely illegal, Malta, Ireland, Netherlands and Poland.

I don’t believe that we have made them
Illegal. They simply is not legislation for them
And hence are treated as MPV and as such need the same criteria

LeeroyJ.

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be pedantic, they are not illegal here. they are legal if taxed, insured, etc., as mopeds.
i understand that ringing an insurance complany looking for insurance may be a thankless task...

The Netherlands has a similar law, but for all intents and purposes it is near impossible to get an Electric scooter road legal and insured which is why after closing the loophole last year, they are pretty much considered illegal.

1bryan

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

Currently, E scooters are Legal in:

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden


To be legal soon:
Estonia
United Kingdom
Latvia

Unclear / partly legal:
Czech Republic
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Portugal

Illegal:
Malta
Ireland
Netherlands
Poland

As you can see there are:

4 countries that have made Electric scooter entirely illegal, Malta, Ireland, Netherlands and Poland.

3 Countries are set to legalize them in the near future.

7 Countries have local restrictions, don't have any specific laws making them legal or illegal or require a drivers licence which I consider under partly legal.

14 Countries have made them legal (with various restriction to speed, safety gear and where to drive them)

Out of the EU 27+UK, 4 countries have banned them entirely, which makes me wonder what makes us so different to the 24 countries that are allowing people to use them even with the "tiny wheels".

that's an interesting breakdown. The one thing that is clear though, is that everywhere they are legal, regulations and restrictions have been introduced to permit their use. I'd be curious to know how these restrictions differ from country to country. Its not as if there are EU-wide laws governing e-scooters and those 14 states have opted not to override them. Its more likely the laws will be different in each state.

There are also huge differences in terms of infrastructure, etc. Denmark and The Netherlands jump right off the page - the former permitting them, the latter, not. Again, is there anyone more expert in this area than The Netherlands?

Also interesting that Latvia and Estonia are both soon to legalise them. These are 2 states I am personally very familiar with and, though neighbouring Baltic states, they are worlds apart in terms of their road network and cycling infrastructure. Estonia has to be seen to be be believed. Latvia, on the other had, has almost zero cycling infrastructure in place and its more unusual to see cyclists on the the road than it is to see them on the footpath. Curious to see how that will play out.

Thargor

A good chunk of the unclear/partly legal list should be considered legal anyway when you see the amount of Lyme/Uber/private users zipping around on them, Italy and Greece in particular. No sign of any significant carnage that recent posters would have led you to expect was coming either.

1bryan

Thargor wrote: »

A good chunk of the unclear/partly legal list should be considered legal anyway when you see the amount of Lyme/Uber/private users zipping around on them, Italy and Greece in particular. No sign of any significant carnage that recent posters would have led you to expect was coming either.

I would hope the law is clear and there's no scope for, 'should be considered'. That just creates a big mess.

magicbastarder

we were out for a walk yesterday, and saw two or three people on scooters on the road - going relatively fast, in the sense that it was a slight uphill, so you would not usually see cyclists going that fast there, but that's not really important.
why i mention it is that i knew about 100m ahead of them were a series of potholes/road deformities. i just had visions of one of the riders being thrown when they hit one.

beauf

I'm assuming they didn't fall or you'd have mentioned it....?

liamog

For the type of scooters that are likely to be allowed, average speed is around 20km/h. They are pretty difficult to use whilst facing backwards. Most people will notice any upcoming potholes and either adjust there speed or steer around them.
There is plenty of time to spot the hazard and adjust accordingly.

marcos_94

Some good news from the UK

http://news.sky.com/story/e-scooters-to-be-allowed-on-uk-roads-as-nationwide-ban-lifted-12018346

ED E

marcos_94 wrote: »

Some good news from the UK

http://news.sky.com/story/e-scooters-to-be-allowed-on-uk-roads-as-nationwide-ban-lifted-12018346

Nah

As part of a 12-month trial, people will be able to rent e-scooters and ride them on the road or the pavement as long as they have a full or provisional car, motorbike or moped licence and are over 16, the Department for Transport said.

They're going the treat them like motorbikes route. First licensing, then a small motor tax charge, then after a bad crash insurance will be mandated.

timsey tiger

dastardly00 wrote: »

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

They would naturally compete for the same parts of the road infrastructure as cyclists.

eeeee

timsey tiger wrote: »

They would naturally compete for share the same parts of the road infrastructure as cyclists.

FYP

shaveAbullock

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be pedantic, they are not illegal here. they are legal if taxed, insured, etc., as mopeds.
i understand that ringing an insurance complany looking for insurance may be a thankless task...

Insurance is complacently impossible but what is the rate of tax currently?

Markcheese

Is scooter rental the beesknees , or would the public just buy their own ?
I reckon helmet and a high viz jacket should be compulsory

Grassey

Mandatory wrist guards and knee pads probably would be even better safety equipment too right?