rsa supporting e-scooters

beauf

Markcheese wrote: »

I have no prob with a speed / power restriction ,
I have no problem with a requirement for a helmet and or hi-vis jacket ,
To be honest I've no problem with a requirement that you've done the equivalent of a cycle training course or have a provisional licence ...
And that if youre acting the tit your scooter can be seized ...
But a lot of those things may be controversial ...

It interesting how you've not mentioned the one thing that is a legal requirement for bicycles. Lights.

Inquitus wrote: »

Why would you impose these rules on scooters when cyclists are not required to meet any of them?

Not entirely true. There is a speed/power restriction on eBike's that want to be treated the same as bicycles. If you have one that exceeds those regulations, it has different legal obligations.

beauf

This was interesting...

https://goosed.ie/electric-scooters-to-be-legalised-in-ireland/

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

At the very least, the operator should have a learner permit (any category) to which penalty points can be applied.

They should be registered and insured for a small sum (€50 per year).

No motor tax. Otherwise it would discourage use.

cletus

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

At the very least, the operator should have a learner permit (any category) to which penalty points can be applied.

They should be registered and insured for a small sum (€50 per year).

Why?

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

cletus wrote: »

Why?

Because they're mechanically propelled vehicles.

The operators of these from my experience are usually reckless. They are often driven dangerously among crowds down streets.

cletus

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Because they're mechanically propelled vehicles.

The operators of these from my experience are usually reckless. They are often driven dangerously among crowds down streets.

Surely anyone caught breaking the law with a scooter could be punished or penalised in the same manner as anyone else who is not in a car.

Would we have new penalty points for scooter use? If it's a learner permit, would the be required to have a fully licensed scooter operator with them while scooting?

Eleven Benevolent Elephants

cletus wrote: »

Surely anyone caught breaking the law with a scooter could be punished or penalised in the same manner as anyone else who is not in a car.

Would we have new penalty points for scooter use? If it's a learner permit, would the be required to have a fully licensed scooter operator with them while scooting?

You can drive a motorbike indefinitely on a learner permit. You obviously can't have an accompanying driver in it.

I'm all for encouraging green transport but there needs to be an incentive to keep your bib clean.

cletus

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

You can drive a motorbike indefinitely on a learner permit. You obviously can't have an accompanying driver in it.

I'm all for encouraging green transport but there needs to be an incentive to keep your bib clean.

In order to drive a motorbike on a provisional license, you must complete an IBT (initial basic training) course.

https://www.irishmotorcycletraining.com/welcome/ibt-course/

It covers a range of the basic skills required for motorbike riding, including actual practice of those skills on a closed circuit.

Would that be a requirement? Would we need to ascertain the core skills required to scoot?

Markcheese

beauf wrote: »

It interesting how you've not mentioned the one thing that is a legal requirement for bicycles. Lights.



Not entirely true. There is a speed/power restriction on eBike's that want to be treated the same as bicycles. If you have one that exceeds those regulations, it has different legal obligations.

I think a light on the riders helmet ,or backpack or jacket would be a good idea..

Markcheese

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

At the very least, the operator should have a learner permit (any category) to which penalty points can be applied.

They should be registered and insured for a small sum (€50 per year).

No motor tax. Otherwise it would discourage use.

How can you say how much insurance would be ?
The only reasons I'd advocate a provisional licence is an age limit , definite ID , but mainly rules of the road ...

Markcheese

cletus wrote: »

In order to drive a motorbike on a provisional license, you must complete an IBT (initial basic training) course.

https://www.irishmotorcycletraining.com/welcome/ibt-course/

It covers a range of the basic skills required for motorbike riding, including actual practice of those skills on a closed circuit.

Would that be a requirement? Would we need to ascertain the core skills required to scoot?

I did a half day compulsory basic training course ( uk) to get a provisional bike licence ,(after I had my car licence .. )
I think I learned more about situational awareness and road positioning on that few hours than in all the driving I'd done up to then ..
But I was 20 so I still drove my bike like a tit ..

Inquitus

Scooters have no more speed or inertia than a cyclist, there is no reason they should be treated differently. I agree with an age limit, 16 or 18 but beyond that it is nonsense, unless you think cyclists should be similarly restircted.

Thelonious Monk

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

Because they're mechanically propelled vehicles.

The operators of these from my experience are usually reckless. They are often driven dangerously among crowds down streets.

They are harmless, they haven't harmed anyone. Saying they are usually reckless is ridiculous. In the news every day there are people killed in car crashes, but I don't assume all drivers are reckless.
Any discussion of escooters you get people saying "I was nearly hit by one on the footpath the other day".
I would rather be hit by someone on one of these than someone on a bicycle.

rubadub

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

No motor tax. Otherwise it would discourage use.

So you are seemingly concerned about discouraging usage?!

Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »

At the very least, the operator should have a learner permit (any category) to which penalty points can be applied.

They should be registered and insured for a small sum (€50 per year).

This sounds liike the folks who blurt out stuff about licenses and tax for all cyclists, without thinking of the full repercussions. e.g. I think of my friend with 4 kids having to fork out for licenses for all of them, registration fees, queuing up in some equivalent of a passport office, 70-100+euro a head for the license, photos extra. I would imagine the insurance companies would want to make at least 100 euro per year just to cover admin.

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, there's definitely a 'be careful what you wish for' concern here. as that'd normalise introducing those rules for cyclists.

The other "careful what you wish for" is both for cyclists and motorists. If these end up being permitted on cycle tracks many faster cyclists will move onto the road instead (as they are legally entitled to do), and many motorists who support the idea of them will not be impressed with that. The limit is just that, lidl were selling quite low power models recently, many I come across are obviously chipped/flashed and going above the legal limit.

liamog

rubadub wrote: »

The other "careful what you wish for" is both for cyclists and motorists. If these end up being permitted on cycle tracks many faster cyclists will move onto the road instead (as they are legally entitled to do), and many motorists who support the idea of them will not be impressed with that. The limit is just that, lidl were selling quite low power models recently, many I come across are obviously chipped/flashed and going above the legal limit.

Plenty of cyclists travelling between 20 and 30 km/h on cycle paths too. Having seen e-scooters and bikes mixing in other parts of Europe it works out pretty well.

rubadub

liamog wrote: »

Plenty of cyclists travelling between 20 and 30 km/h on cycle paths too.

Indeed, I was talking about escooters going slower than that, many are going the speed you mention, and way faster just as cyclists do be if illegally on ebikes or under their own steam. IME the escooters are more likely to stick dead centre in cycle tracks and never look behind or give way, due to it being more unstable to shoulder check and the smaller wheels not being suitable for our horrendous "perfectly good" cycletracks.

Of course I will be berated and said "OMG, you think people should give way?!! who the fcuk do you think you are!!! they have every right, blah blah blah" which has happened before. It is a simple fact that most do, out of courtesy, I certainly do, as a pedestrian too, if any freaks/liars want to deny that fact go ahead...

I am just saying this is not some benign addition, an influx of slow escooters will mean more cyclists on the road, which many morists abhor it, aggression may rise. Many are ignorant of the rules of the road and the law and take on this vigilante role and want to "teach cyclists a lesson" with close passes and other aggressive stuff, thinking they are Charles Bronson or something. Wrongly thinking cyclists are illegally on the road.

Inquitus

rubadub wrote: »

Indeed, I was talking about escooters going slower than that, many are going the speed you mention, and way faster just as cyclists do be if illegally on ebikes or under their own steam. IME the escooters are more likely to stick dead centre in cycle tracks and never look behind or give way, due to it being more unstable to shoulder check and the smaller wheels not being suitable for our horrendous "perfectly good" cycletracks.

Of course I will be berated and said "OMG, you think people should give way?!! who the fcuk do you think you are!!! they have every right, blah blah blah" which has happened before. It is a simple fact that most do, out of courtesy, I certainly do, as a pedestrian too, if any freaks/liars want to deny that fact go ahead...

I am just saying this is not some benign addition, an influx of slow escooters will mean more cyclists on the road, which many morists abhor it, aggression may rise. Many are ignorant of the rules of the road and the law and take on this vigilante role and want to "teach cyclists a lesson" with close passes and other aggressive stuff, thinking they are Charles Bronson or something. Wrongly thinking cyclists are illegally on the road.

What a brain fart, try again and make it understable!

CramCycle

Basically if you get a f*ck load of scooters on the bike path, you will see a rise in the number of cyclist son the main road, which may in turn lead to an increase in aggression towards cyclists.

I don't buy it but i understand the thought process.

My own opinion would be that an increase in scooters and bikes, leads to a reduction in motorised traffic, and just like mid term at the minute, more people are nicer on the roads because they don't feel they are being "held up" (which they aren't but I can't control how people interpret their environment).

By the way today was wonderful on the commute. Had a DB beep at me, I was worried for a second, looked around, he smiled, waved, apologised and indicated that it was not for me. We waved as he passed with an abundance of space and all was well with the world. The less motorised traffic on the road, the nicer it seems to become.

Macy0161

They're there and they're not being enforced. It would be better to regulate and just move on. Personally, I'm now of the opinion that every method that gets more people out of cars is a good thing overall for everyone, but particularly vulnerable road users like cyclists. If loads of escooters means less cars, it means less issues for cyclists on the road. More escooters causing more cyclists to use the road, is likely to increase infrastructure.

Talk of licences and insurance is a nonsense.

liamog

Macy0161 wrote: »

Talk of licences and insurance is a nonsense.

Agreed, the only requirement for e-scooters should be the same as bicycles, lights after dark.
Though I would distinguish between low power e.g. sub 30km/h and higher powered which should be treated like mopeds. At the same time I'd introduce legislation to allow speed pedelecs.

breezy1985

Macy0161 wrote: »

They're there and they're not being enforced. It would be better to regulate and just move on. Personally, I'm now of the opinion that every method that gets more people out of cars is a good thing overall for everyone, but particularly vulnerable road users like cyclists. If loads of escooters means less cars, it means less issues for cyclists on the road. More escooters causing more cyclists to use the road, is likely to increase infrastructure.

Talk of licences and insurance is a nonsense.

It also means a quicker journey for all the motorists who spend half the day sitting in traffic

magicbastarder

Macy0161 wrote: »

If loads of escooters means less car.

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

breezy1985

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

It probably is true in the short term as adults who have cars are not gonna give them up for something slower but in the long term kids who have yet to buy their first car will hopefully opt for a bike or scooter it we put the ground work in now.

That's going by studies done in other countries and yes some as wet and windy as Ireland

beauf

All these suggestions have already been done, in other countries. I'm baffled why it takes us 3~4 yrs to reinvent the wheel on this. I suspect it because we don't have the man power, or motivation to enforce it.

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

anecdotally, i'm hearing claims that they're displacing public transport journeys rather than car journeys. i suspect there's an element of truth in that, but to what extent, i don't know.

I think it requires a mindset change about how to get to work, and around in general. The speed advantages over crowded public transport are obvious. Moving people out of cars, who are happy being slow, if they have the convenience and comfort of their car, it always going to be much harder. You would have to make it very difficult to do the car journey, before people will switch out of them.

liamog

beauf wrote: »

All these suggestions have already been done, in other countries. I'm baffled why it takes us 3~4 yrs to reinvent the wheel on this. I suspect it because we don't have the man power, or motivation to enforce it.

It doesn't take that long, we wait for the UK to regulate then we copy and paste. It's easier than using google translate to create regulations.

amadangomor

Prick on one almost creamed me on a footpath few weeks ago. Was looking at some bees in a flowerbed on edge and walked back out and glanced him as I turned around while he was whizzing past me.

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

thebronze14

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

liamog

amadangomor wrote: »

There was a bike lane so no way should he have been on the footpath. What comeback would I have if I was seriously injured in this case. Surely they should have to be insured.

The same comeback as if a pedestrian had ran into you on the street.
You'd have to take a civil case against them and they would likely be covered by public liability on their domestic insurance. Anyone who rents or has a mortgage should have home insurance.

Although today, while they are treated like MPV's you may be covered by the uninsured drivers fund.

ED E

thebronze14 wrote: »

My main gripes with them are the lack of proper lights or reflective gear most of them don't seem to wear. This is particularly important with the hour going back and travelling back from work in the dark. I also see a number of my ex students on them at 12/13 years old and this is far too young to be on the road safely

12yo are totally capable of safely riding on roads. What a load of BS.